The only theory that makes any real sense.

[Chelly]

Ok I think I know who SeekingJana was talking about even though I wasn't around at the time. In fact, IIRC, OTG mentioned her the other day.

At one point in time I had considered that BR may have woken up and spoiled the plan to dump JB. I can't remember now why I steered away from it.

BBM Once BR saw the dead body, they couldn't dump her for fear he may say something about "Hey we all saw her dead in the house. How'd she get in the mountains?" If they leave her in the house, pretending to all find her dead at the same time, he isn't as likely to out them with something he could say. Even if he said that he saw her dead, they'd just say he was dreaming, or she was sleeping, etc.

This scenario explains the 911 call, why she wasn't dumped, and why BR was rushed out of the house first thing that morning. It all fits.

There was no way to hide her in that house without dogs being able to detect the scent of decomp. Utterly amazing they weren't brought in....

ETA: This also explains JR's irritation with BR at the end of the 911 call. He was mad & frustrated that BR had ruined the plan to dump JB. Probably scared to death too! Also explains PR's "Oh help me Jesus! They're going to arrest me!"

I recall the trouble-maker from my lurking days. I agree with part about R's original plan to dump the body, but not about BR being innocent.

 

[Nom de plume]

I recall the trouble-maker from my lurking days. I agree with part about R's original plan to dump the body, but not about BR being innocent.

If it wasn't because BR ruined the plan, then why didn't they dump her?

 

[Venom]

Ok I think I know who SeekingJana was talking about even though I wasn't around at the time. In fact, IIRC, OTG mentioned her the other day.

At one point in time I had considered that BR may have woken up and spoiled the plan to dump JB. I can't remember now why I steered away from it.

BBM Once BR saw the dead body, they couldn't dump her for fear he may say something about "Hey we all saw her dead in the house. How'd she get in the mountains?" If they leave her in the house, pretending to all find her dead at the same time, he isn't as likely to out them with something he could say. Even if he said that he saw her dead, they'd just say he was dreaming, or she was sleeping, etc.

This scenario explains the 911 call, why she wasn't dumped, and why BR was rushed out of the house first thing that morning. It all fits.

There was no way to hide her in that house without dogs being able to detect the scent of decomp. Utterly amazing they weren't brought in....

ETA: This also explains JR's irritation with BR at the end of the 911 call. He was mad & frustrated that BR had ruined the plan to dump JB. Probably scared to death too! Also explains PR's "Oh help me Jesus! They're going to arrest me!"

This case has a lot of things that leave me shaking my head with the staging, what if's, odd behavior. That scenario really seems to fit together.

 

[Chelly]

If it wasn't because BR ruined the plan, then why didn't they dump her?

IMO.....I think it comes down to timing and fear.

1) They ran out of time.
2) JR was afraid of being observed driving the morning after Christmas with JB's body in his vehicle (which was recognizable).
3) They probably realized that cadaver sniffing dogs would hit on his vehicle.
4) They couldn't come up with a dumping site or a plan.
5) JR was fearful of being caught dumping the body.
6) Ultimately, I think JR felt he could better control the situation in his own home

 

[Nom de plume]

IMO.....I think it comes down to timing and fear.

1) They ran out of time.
2) JR was afraid of being observed driving the morning after Christmas with JB's body in his vehicle (which was recognizable).
3) They probably realized that cadaver sniffing dogs would hit on his vehicle.
4) They couldn't come up with a dumping site or a plan.
5) JR was fearful of being caught dumping the body.
6) Ultimately, I think JR felt he could better control the situation in his own home

Could be Chelly. Lately I'd been thinking JR preferred JB to be found in the house as opposed to having LM & the FBI involved, but this latest theory does make a lot of sense, at least to me. Bottom line, we'll probably never know for sure. :banghead:

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Edit-

To clarify, when I say it's the only theory that makes sense, I mean the part about dumping the body. Kidnap scenarios are simply not believable with a dead body present. Intruder pedo theories are not believable with RNs present.

It's still hard to see why they could not have gone ahead with the plan to dispose of the body. PR takes BR to a friend's house for "safety" and JR "delivers" the ransom and at the same time dumps the body.

While hiding the body, and hiding it well, not just placed on the floor of the WC, is an option that still makes the kidnap scenario work, it's largely theoretical. Had dogs been brought in it's unlikely the body would go undetected.

I think the reason why they couldn't dispose of the body was that PR was too sickened at the thought of her little girl out there in the snow and cold where animals could start to pick at her perfect doll baby. Remember, someone took the time to wrap the body in a blanket which indicates the perp(s) had an emotional attachment to the victim. It suggests "care" although the irony is the victim is dead. I think PR couldn't bear to have her dead girl's body leave her house like that so she made a "deal" of sorts with JR (who I believe wanted JBR's body taken out of the house and disposed of). The "deal" was that there would be staging in the WC to JBR to make it look like an intruder did horrible things which served also to cover some of the actual crimes committed (and this is the most important part) there would be a **ransom note** that PR would write to cement the appearance that it was an intruder/kidnapper that did this. JR agreed, reluctantly.

Their pact was sealed.

And in some ways, it worked. For now.....

 

[Chrishope]

IMO.....I think it comes down to timing and fear.

1) They ran out of time.

If it's a cooperative effort between PR/JR, then I don't see time as a problem.

They have to call their pilot (or wait for him to call them) but they don't owe him an explanation. They'd probably say the kids were ill or something along those lines.

In reality they allowed the older kids to fly to MN, so they'd do that again, giving them a few more hours before there even had to be a phone call made. Again, some excuse could be given as to why the flight was cancelled and apologies for the inconvenience.

The note, imo, makes it clear the ransom call is supposed to be on the 27th, not the 26th.

It seems to me there is plenty of time to carry out the plan as per the Doc theory.

2) JR was afraid of being observed driving the morning after Christmas with JB's body in his vehicle (which was recognizable).

If Doc's theory is correct, he wouldn't have to be driving in the light of day, though that would remain an option.

3) They probably realized that cadaver sniffing dogs would hit on his vehicle.

That's very possible. If they anticipated dogs, which any reasonable person would, it might be a reason not to do it. It would also mean that there is no possibility they expected the police to leave w/o the body being discovered.

4) They couldn't come up with a dumping site or a plan.

Possibly. There's not much planning involved, just drive until you find a secluded spot. Whether or not they had any place in mind we don't know. It's possible they didn't think they could find a spot w/o being seen.

5) JR was fearful of being caught dumping the body.

Who wouldn't be. But he'd have to be fearful of calling the police to find his daughter's body in the basement too.

6) Ultimately, I think JR felt he could better control the situation in his own home

Possibly.

 

[Chrishope]

If BR saw the body, then they might opt not to dump, as BR might let that slip. They also might not have trusted their freedom to a 9 year old's discretion, so didn't try to enlist him in the cover up. At that point, they might have felt there was no option but to run the "kidnapping gone bad" idea.

If BR didn't see the body, but merely woke up, then they could either just put him back in bed, or they could let him in on the "kidnapping" and proceed with the plan to dump the body, after BR is out of the house.

All in all, I don't think it's a "They" case.

 

[renah]

Chrishope

Are you saying that only one parent was involved because if it were both, one could have distracted BR while the other dealt with the body-- but since in reality only one parent was involved, s/he was unable to do both?

I am also curious to know who the former insider She-Beast said was the actual killer?

 

[2 percent]

Years ago, when the case was hot, the Ramseys leaked info to the internet via a She-Beast who will not be named.
However, some of what the woman said was true ( the leaked parts were easy to separate from the homeless pedophile living in the back alley theories), and she was a valuable, if hated, source of info until she sold the Ramseys down the river to the tabloids. At that point, she totally disappeared and the world has been a better place for it.

Oh, sure if we who were RDIs said " White", she'd have long huge posts saying " Black" with her own self posting as 2 or 3 people on her own forum, BUT when she came out with gems of her own, they were things that fit and were not widely known to the public up to that time.

Sorry for the above, but that was just so those who haven't been here the entire time will understand.

One day, this woman, who was a Ramsey info- mole and probably WAS a true confidante' of the Ramseys for a few years after the murder, let it slip in her private forum that JonBenet's body was not supposed to STAY in the basement.
When pressed, she said that the child's body was supposed to be dumped outside Boulder in the mountains, just a few blocks from the Ramsey house apparently, but that Burke woke up in the middle of the chaotic scene.. Hence, the 911 callS.

It fits with the staging that was done to make the whole thing look like a kidnapping.... until the body was found in the house. Not supposed to have happened that way at all.

IMO, that's the only scenario that makes a lick of sense. The staging took too long ( what with the 3 page ransom letter and so forth), and Burke, an innocent child, woke up and they lost the window of time to leave the house under cover of darkness.

Co-incidentally, there's a telling anecdote in their own book " DOI"- When Patsy went into labor with JonBenet, and Burke was 3, John and Patsy left him at home alone while they rushed to Northside Hospital for the birth. They went on to explain that one of the "P" aunts were coming over, but there was an early history of leaving Burke alone..

Just my opinion.. I do not think her murder can ever be solved. Crime scene too contaminated, police didn't question parents immediately, parents lawyered up and paid their way out of all trouble, etc.
This Is just one more anecdote to consider. I have considered it and find it to be plausible.

I agree. I've always thought, and have said it here, that both parents staged the scene and ran out of time.

But do you guys really think She-Beast was an actual confidante? If the Ramseys were (are?) so scared to let Burke be interviewed and avoided being interviewed themselves in case they say too much, why in the world would they take someone in their confidence the very secrets they were trying to keep from the police? Telling things like their dumping plan for JB's body? That speaks to a great deal of confidence in this person I just don't think conspirators to a murder would have for an outsider, and it speaks to a great deal of confidence that the murderers would never be indicted again.

No matter how many assurances they may have, no one in their right mind would risk indictment and willingly leak mistakes they made in their staging of the crime scene. Even OJ wasn't terribly willing to publish his actions although he was covered by Double Jeopardy. Yes, I know he tried to publish...but it was years later and he was prompted to do it to earn money. It never appeared to be about getting his side of the story out.

With so much at risk, why would the Ramseys talk about how they were going to finalize their staging? Makes no sense.

 

[Chelly]

If BR saw the body, then they might opt not to dump, as BR might let that slip. They also might not have trusted their freedom to a 9 year old's discretion, so didn't try to enlist him in the cover up. At that point, they might have felt there was no option but to run the "kidnapping gone bad" idea.

If BR didn't see the body, but merely woke up, then they could either just put him back in bed, or they could let him in on the "kidnapping" and proceed with the plan to dump the body, after BR is out of the house.

All in all, I don't think it's a "They" case.

I respect that you believe it was entirely JR. PR and BR having no involvement. Doc's, and your, theory sometimes works for me when I can't make any sense of PR making that darn 911 call when she did. Only thing I am absolutely sure of is.....RDI.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope

Are you saying that only one parent was involved because if it were both, one could have distracted BR while the other dealt with the body-- but since in reality only one parent was involved, s/he was unable to do both?

I am also curious to know who the former insider She-Beast said was the actual killer?

Within the narrow context of discussing the idea that BR woke up and this was the reason for aborting the plan to dump the body - I'm saying If BR didn't see the body, one or both parents could put him back in bed, or tell him JB had been kidnapped. If he saw the body, he (or she, or they) might have decided that there was no sense dumping the body as BR would know she was dead in the house. They might feel they had to try to make it appear an intruder/murder, vice a kidnapping. Just maybe.

In a larger context, I think only JR was involved because a) I don't believe a kidnap scenario is even minimally plausible with the body in the house, so there had to be a plan to dump the body, and b) If PR were in on it, she'd never have made that 911 call when she did.

 

[Chrishope]

I respect that you believe it was entirely JR. PR and BR having no involvement. Doc's, and your, theory sometimes works for me when I can't make any sense of PR making that darn 911 call when she did. Only thing I am absolutely sure of is.....RDI.

And I respect that it doesn't always work for you and that in general you have a different theory of the case. You are always sensible and logical and I've gotten a lot out of your posts.

 

[Nom de plume]

Within the narrow context of discussing the idea that BR woke up and this was the reason for aborting the plan to dump the body - I'm saying If BR didn't see the body, one or both parents could put him back in bed, or tell him JB had been kidnapped. If he saw the body, he (or she, or they) might have decided that there was no sense dumping the body as BR would know she was dead in the house. They might feel they had to try to make it appear an intruder/murder, vice a kidnapping. Just maybe.

In a larger context, I think only JR was involved because a) I don't believe a kidnap scenario is even minimally plausible with the body in the house, so there had to be a plan to dump the body, and b) If PR were in on it, she'd never have made that 911 call when she did.

Either theory fits except for a few minor details. Theory 1 accounts for the 911 call (with BR seeing the body), JR's, BR's & PR's comments on the end of the 911 call, PR's bizarre behavior the morning of 12/26, PR's Ramnesia in her interviews, and BR being hustled out of the house so fast on the morning of the 26th.

Theory 2 does not account for any of these factors. So according to DocG's theory, how do you account for all these other factors?

Come on Chrishope, let that DocG theory go just a lil bit....:floorlaugh: (Just goofin' with ya! You know I was a die hard DocG theorist myself at one time!)

 

[2 percent]

Either theory fits except for a few minor details. Theory 1 accounts for the 911 call (with BR seeing the body), JR's, BR's & PR's comments on the end of the 911 call, PR's bizarre behavior the morning of 12/26, PR's Ramnesia in her interviews, and BR being hustled out of the house so fast on the morning of the 26th.

Theory 2 does not account for any of these factors. So according to DocG's theory, how do you account for all these other factors?

Come on Chrishope, let that DocG theory go just a lil bit....:floorlaugh: (Just goofin' with ya! You know I was a die hard DocG theorist myself at one time!)

Even if Burke did see her body, would he know she was dead? She didn't appear to have the traditional gruesome signs of stragulation from what I saw of the autopsy photos.

I just can't swallow that Burke saw JB dead. I think he could have interrupted one or both of the Rs and accelerated their timeline but I think if Burke saw her dead he would have been talking about it. The shock and confusion would have revved the motor in his mouth.

 

[Chrishope]

Either theory fits except for a few minor details. Theory 1 accounts for the 911 call (with BR seeing the body), JR's, BR's & PR's comments on the end of the 911 call, PR's bizarre behavior the morning of 12/26, PR's Ramnesia in her interviews, and BR being hustled out of the house so fast on the morning of the 26th.

Theory 2 does not account for any of these factors. So according to DocG's theory, how do you account for all these other factors?

Come on Chrishope, let that DocG theory go just a lil bit....:floorlaugh: (Just goofin' with ya! You know I was a die hard DocG theorist myself at one time!)

As you know, Doc deals with some of these questions on his blog, and better than I could do.

IMO no theory can account for every little detail. In any theory there will always be a "well, what about this.....? question. We must accept that no theory will make 100% sense, or that there are no valid theories as none of them are 100%. But there are only so many possible theories.

I'm finding the theory that BR was the "spoiler", as opposed to PR unilaterally calling 911, somewhat appealing, as it does account for some troublesome things, as you have mentioned. I do think that if BR didn't see the body, the plan could go ahead as per Doc's outline. If BR saw the body they'd have to get him to go along with the coverup, and trusting your fate to a 9 year old's discretion would be very dangerous. All he'd have to do is tell someone he saw the body, and their kidnap scenario would be out the window.

So far there has been no mention by BR of having seen the body. He did seem to know what happened to her, so he might have been told.

At any rate, you are welcome to come back into the light anytime

 

[Nom de plume]

As you know, Doc deals with some of these questions on his blog, and better than I could do.

IMO no theory can account for every little detail. In any theory there will always be a "well, what about this.....? question. We must accept that no theory will make 100% sense, or that there are no valid theories as none of them are 100%. But there are only so many possible theories.

I'm finding the theory that BR was the "spoiler", as opposed to PR unilaterally calling 911, somewhat appealing, as it does account for some troublesome things, as you have mentioned. I do think that if BR didn't see the body, the plan could go ahead as per Doc's outline. If BR saw the body they'd have to get him to go along with the coverup, and trusting your fate to a 9 year old's discretion would be very dangerous. All he'd have to do is tell someone he saw the body, and their kidnap scenario would be out the window.

So far there has been no mention by BR of having seen the body. He did seem to know what happened to her, so he might have been told.

At any rate, you are welcome to come back into the light anytime

LOL, touché! Right back at ya!

BBM If he saw it before the garroting, they could have told him she was asleep, but then no reason not to dump her. If her saw her with the garrote in place, they might have told him that an IDI, but they didn't want him to say he saw her. There was SOME reason he was whisked out of that house so early the next morning. The kidnap scenario is already out the window with the body in the house. But with NO RN, there's no one to point the finger at but JR & PR, so they HAD to have some "Oh look! Something shiny" distraction, even though it wasn't in the least bit believable.

 

[SeekingJana]

I agree. I've always thought, and have said it here, that both parents staged the scene and ran out of time.

But do you guys really think She-Beast was an actual confidante? If the Ramseys were (are?) so scared to let Burke be interviewed and avoided being interviewed themselves in case they say too much, why in the world would they take someone in their confidence the very secrets they were trying to keep from the police? Telling things like their dumping plan for JB's body? That speaks to a great deal of confidence in this person I just don't think conspirators to a murder would have for an outsider, and it speaks to a great deal of confidence that the murderers would never be indicted again.

No matter how many assurances they may have, no one in their right mind would risk indictment and willingly leak mistakes they made in their staging of the crime scene. Even OJ wasn't terribly willing to publish his actions although he was covered by Double Jeopardy. Yes, I know he tried to publish...but it was years later and he was prompted to do it to earn money. It never appeared to be about getting his side of the story out.

With so much at risk, why would the Ramseys talk about how they were going to finalize their staging? Makes no sense.

Since her forum no longer exists, I cannot go back to any sort of timeline of her leaks from the Ramseys to the other Internet forums on the case ( remember, we are talking 1997-2000 or so) but S.B.s release of the aborted plan to dump the body MAY have been her coup de grace'.
I don't recall any other thing coming from her after that huge bomb was dropped.

And yes, the Ramseys and Susan Stine absolutely DID trust her and confide in her for the express purpose of using her as an Internet mouthpiece. S.B. was too vain to recognize they were using her, and she never actually SAID " I met with the Ramseys today".. But.. she lived 3 or 4 states away and she DID come to Marietta and she DID hang angels in the tree beside the grave many times and she DID photograph the changes in the tree. And it was accurate because I lived in Marietta at the time and checked it out.

So, do you really think she flew down just to hang angel ornaments in a tree and post photos on the Internet, or do you think the Ramseys flew her to Atlanta and served her tea and told her a few new things each time?
Which would get you on a plane multiple times and also cause you to be one of the most HATED people on the Internet for years? It would have to be something worth your while financially, wouldn't it???
She was PAID, y'all. She was PAID very well, plus the personal " ego" factor was huge for her for those years !!!

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Even if Burke did see her body, would he know she was dead? She didn't appear to have the traditional gruesome signs of stragulation from what I saw of the autopsy photos.

I just can't swallow that Burke saw JB dead. I think he could have interrupted one or both of the Rs and accelerated their timeline but I think if Burke saw her dead he would have been talking about it. The shock and confusion would have revved the motor in his mouth.

I don't believe that BR was ever near JBR that night during or after the crime.. nor the morning, Because I don't believe that any of them committed it and knew she was there, BUT that being said, If BR had seen that body, years later it would have come out in some way. It would not be something he could live with later, He would be covering up but something so traumatic would be bound to surface in some capacity. Eventually he would know and would have some reaction to it.

The more I look into BR having anything to do with it, Or even knowing about it, or participating in any capacity, It is a big NO WAY. OMO

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

If it wasn't because BR ruined the plan, then why didn't they dump her?

One possibility is that JR hired someone to dispose of the body but the person didn't show up or encountered a problem in the basement (assuming he/she was let in through a door of the residence).

Maybe John realized the situation after the 911 call. This may explain Linda Arndt's description of JR's drastic personality change after he went missing between 10 am and 12 pm.

This also may explain why JR quickly insisted that he broke the basement window the previous summer.

If only the police could have used the phone records illegally provided to them.