The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[Sunshine4Me]

I think they were repulsed by what they had just done and didn't want to look at it anymore. Also, I think reintarnation is onto something: maybe that's all they had to use.



Okay, you've got me interested. What are you thinking?



I'd have to hear more before I can account for it.



Maybe so. I just assume JR handled that part of it. But I'm open to discussion. That's why I'm here!

Hi I'm new. I had always thought she was redressed more than once. I think Patsy originally stated Jonbenet went to bed wearing a red top. My thinking goes she was still in the clothes she wore to the Whites party when she came home and was assaulted. When the killer saw the blood he changed her into the Barbie nightgown, which also got blood on it. So she was changed a second time, into what she was found in the next day. Did they ever find the clothes she wore to the Whites? I remember reading the red top was found in her bathroom sink, but don't remember reading if they found the pants.

 

[AndHence]

I agree that the Bloomingdale's were chosen because they were clean. They were a practical necessity.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree that the Bloomingdale's were chosen because they were clean. They were a practical necessity.

AndHence.
They sure were, just makes you wonder what her original pants looked like, don't forget the missing pajama bottoms from JonBenet's bedroom?

Looks like either BR or JR redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, definitely not something Patsy would do, she was ignorant about no size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer, that was one tale too many by the *advertiser censored* laude RN author.

Corroborating forensic evidence is JR's fibers on the size-12's, they just should not be there period, even Patsy stated JR never attended to JonBenet for bathing or dressing!

So for me, this is what makes Dr Phil's interview so interesting, I reckon he might be talking to the prime suspect in the JonBenet case, consider what escapes money and education can buy, contrast with some African American from the Bronx charged with murder or rape and no funds to acquire a defense attorney.

.

 

[DeDee]

AndHence.
They sure were, just makes you wonder what her original pants looked like, don't forget the missing pajama bottoms from JonBenet's bedroom?

Looks like either BR or JR redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, definitely not something Patsy would do, she was ignorant about no size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer, that was one tale too many by the *advertiser censored* laude RN author.

Corroborating forensic evidence is JR's fibers on the size-12's, they just should not be there period, even Patsy stated JR never attended to JonBenet for bathing or dressing!

So for me, this is what makes Dr Phil's interview so interesting, I reckon he might be talking to the prime suspect in the JonBenet case, consider what escapes money and education can buy, contrast with some African American from the Bronx charged with murder or rape and no funds to acquire a defense attorney.

.

UKGuy,

Patsy purchased the Days of the Week panties at Bloomingdale's in NYC that Nov. '96 for her niece. They were shipped to Boulder along with toys purchased at FAO Schwartz. I, personally, would never purchase underwear as a Christmas present for a family member. Regardless, Patsy did. They were in a package meant for the niece in the Rs basement. During the commission of the crime, the gift-wrapped package was opened, the size 12 Wednesday panties was removed, and placed on JonBenet's body. JR should not even know about this gift. PR is the one who bought the panties and had them shipped home via FAO Schwartz.

Later the rest of the package of the Days of the Week panties was shipped to BPD from the Rs who were living in ATL, att.

The fibers in the panties were never conclusively proven to be JRs. The investigators tell JR that they are his shirt's fibers are on his daughter's panties. LW says the fibers are not from JRs black shirt although dark fibers were found at the CS just that it's not JRs black shirt fibers in the crotch of her panties. If you have a better source, I'm open to reading the truth.

 

[BBB167893]

The fibers in the panties were never conclusively proven to be JRs. The investigators tell JR that they are his shirt's fibers are on his daughter's panties. LW says the fibers are not from JRs black shirt although dark fibers were found at the CS just that it's not JRs black shirt fibers in the crotch of her panties. If you have a better source, I'm open to reading the truth.

Well, DeDee, I know which one of the two I'd believe.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

Patsy purchased the Days of the Week panties at Bloomingdale's in NYC that Nov. '96 for her niece. They were shipped to Boulder along with toys purchased at FAO Schwartz. I, personally, would never purchase underwear as a Christmas present for a family member. Regardless, Patsy did. They were in a package meant for the niece in the Rs basement. During the commission of the crime, the gift-wrapped package was opened, the size 12 Wednesday panties was removed, and placed on JonBenet's body. JR should not even know about this gift. PR is the one who bought the panties and had them shipped home via FAO Schwartz.

Later the rest of the package of the Days of the Week panties was shipped to BPD from the Rs who were living in ATL, att.

The fibers in the panties were never conclusively proven to be JRs. The investigators tell JR that they are his shirt's fibers are on his daughter's panties. LW says the fibers are not from JRs black shirt although dark fibers were found at the CS just that it's not JRs black shirt fibers in the crotch of her panties. If you have a better source, I'm open to reading the truth.

Patsy purchased the Days of the Week panties at Bloomingdale's in NYC that Nov. '96 for her niece.

In her interview Patsy explicitly states she purchased two sets of size-12 underwear, one for her niece and one for JonBenet, since she asked for a set.

They were shipped to Boulder along with toys purchased at FAO Schwartz. I, personally, would never purchase underwear as a Christmas present for a family member. Regardless, Patsy did

You would think Bloomingdales would have had then, an order note and invoice for the shipper, since the purchase was so close to JonBenet's death?

The fibers in the panties were never conclusively proven to be JRs

They were according to BPD's forensic unit.

LW says the fibers are not from JRs black shirt although dark fibers were found at the CS just that it's not JRs black shirt fibers in the crotch of her panties.

Really, and on what basis did LW arrive at his conclusion, magic, hearsay, telepathy, or a desire to defend his client JR?

JR's shirt fibers and that found on JonBenet's crotch are not any old fibers, they are fibers manufactured outside of the USA, so rare in appearance, making any match more consistent, than that between fibers purchased at Macy's or Walmart.

Also Kolar states that on Christmas Day afternoon Burke Ramsey was down searching in the basement and opened what we call the partially opened gifts, including the size-12's?

.

 

[DeDee]

In her interview Patsy explicitly states she purchased two sets of size-12 underwear, one for her niece and one for JonBenet, since she asked for a set.

You would think Bloomingdales would have had then, an order note and invoice for the shipper, since the purchase was so close to JonBenet's death?

They were according to BPD's forensic unit.

Really, and on what basis did LW arrive at his conclusion, magic, hearsay, telepathy, or a desire to defend his client JR?

JR's shirt fibers and that found on JonBenet's crotch are not any old fibers, they are fibers manufactured outside of the USA, so rare in appearance, making any match more consistent, than that between fibers purchased at Macy's or Walmart.

Also Kolar states that on Christmas Day afternoon Burke Ramsey was down searching in the basement and opened what we call the partially opened gifts, including the size-12's?

.

Yes. The new, not old, black Israeli shirt of JRs is the one with the rare, to use your word, fibers being discussed. There were so many fibers found at the CS that is it difficult to keep up. Both PR and JR, esp., PR, have fibers all over the CS. PR should have been arrested that very day.

There were, in the basement, unopened packages with the wrappings torn and PR blamed it on BR being in the basement earlier Christmas Day in search for his upcoming birthday gift. I don't recall JK specifically stating that BR opened pck of size 12s. The 12s were purchased in NYC for PRs 12yo niece; not any for JB.

The 12s were not shipped by Bloomingdale's so why would Bloomingdale's create a Ship To invoice? FAO Schwartz shipped all of PRs gifts to Boulder, is my point. There has never been any evidence whatsoever that JBR owned any Days of the Week panties size 6 that her mother purchased on the same trip to NYC. None, to my knowledge.

The Bloomingdale's purchase is one piece of evidence that easily could be traced by authorities. It seems F4J found a similar packaging then posted the image.

Add to the list, FW was one of the last people to see JB alive, other than her immediate family, and one of the first to see her after death. Those are shoes I'd rather not feel with the assumed insurmountable grief.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes. The new, not old, black Israeli shirt of JRs is the one with the rare, to use your word, fibers being discussed. There were so many fibers found at the CS that is it difficult to keep up. Both PR and JR, esp., PR, have fibers all over the CS. PR should have been arrested that very day.

There were, in the basement, unopened packages with the wrappings torn and PR blamed it on BR being in the basement earlier Christmas Day in search for his upcoming birthday gift. I don't recall JK specifically stating that BR opened pck of size 12s. The 12s were purchased in NYC for PRs 12yo niece; not any for JB.

The 12s were not shipped by Bloomingdale's so why would Bloomingdale's create a Ship To invoice? FAO Schwartz shipped all of PRs gifts to Boulder, is my point. There has never been any evidence whatsoever that JBR owned any Days of the Week panties size 6 that her mother purchased on the same trip to NYC. None, to my knowledge.

The Bloomingdale's purchase is one piece of evidence that easily could be traced by authorities. It seems F4J found a similar packaging then posted the image.

Add to the list, FW was one of the last people to see JB alive, other than her immediate family, and one of the first to see her after death. Those are shoes I'd rather not feel with the assumed insurmountable grief.

DeDee,

Yes. The new, not old, black Israeli shirt of JRs is the one with the rare, to use your word, fibers being discussed. There were so many fibers found at the CS that is it difficult to keep up. Both PR and JR, esp., PR, have fibers all over the CS. PR should have been arrested that very day.

Sure and yet LW was trying hard to suggest they were no different from Walmart shirt fibers, so do not talk to my client like that, etc.

The 12s were purchased in NYC for PRs 12yo niece; not any for JB.

Not according to Patsy, read her interview at acandyrose.

1. Patsy says she bought the size-12's November 1996

1 Q. The underwear that she was

2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you

3 know where they come from as far as what

4 store?

5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.

6 Q. Who purchased those?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased

9 them?

10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.

2. Patsy says JonBenet selected the size-12's.

2 Q. Which of those two trips did you

3 purchase the Bloomi's?

4 A. The first trip.

5 Q. Was it something that was selected

6 by JonBenet?

7 A. I believe so.

8 Q. Was it your intention, when you

9 purchased those, for those to be for her,

10 not for some third party as a gift?

11 A. I bought some things that were

12 gifts and some things for her. So I

13 don't --

Patsy says she also purchased a pack of size-12's for her niece.

25 I think I bought a package to give to my

0081

1 niece.

2 Q. Which niece was that?

3 A. Jenny Davis.

4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do

5 you remember that they come in kind of a

6 plastic see-through plastic container.

7 A. Right.

8 Q. They are rolled up?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,

11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your

12 niece, and one for JonBenet?

13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or

14 two.

15 Q. Do you remember what size they

16 were?

17 A. Not exactly.

Could be Patsy is spinning, confabulating over her head here, bear in mind her nonsensical statement about the size-12's being in JonBenet's underwear drawer, she clearly says I bought one pair for JonBenet and another for my niece?

FAO Schwartz shipped all of PRs gifts to Boulder, is my point.

OK, but same questions must arise over records created to process Patsy's items?


.

 

[DeDee]

DeDee,

Sure and yet LW was trying hard to suggest they were no different from Walmart shirt fibers, so do not talk to my client like that, etc.

Not according to Patsy, read her interview at acandyrose.

1. Patsy says she bought the size-12's November 1996


2. Patsy says JonBenet selected the size-12's.

Patsy says she also purchased a pack of size-12's for her niece.

Could be Patsy is spinning, confabulating over her head here, bear in mind her nonsensical statement about the size-12's being in JonBenet's underwear drawer, she clearly says I bought one pair for JonBenet and another for my niece?

OK, but same questions must arise over records created to process Patsy's items?

.

Yes, UKGuy. Patsy was always ambiguous in her responses to detectives. She is not clear on whether she specifically purchased those Days of the Week for JB. In fact, in the interview she says:

15 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember the
16 white panties with the printed rosebuds with the
17 words of the day on it, did that sound like
18 JonBenet's panties?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been.
20 She had a lot of 'em, so, I don't know.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: And how --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: If I saw them, I
23 might recall them.


0236
16 THOMAS HANEY: Did JonBenet have
17 panties with the names of each day of the week
18 on it?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. And did she
21 wear those according to the day of the week or
22 was it just kind of --
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Just whatever.
24 THOMAS HANEY: Did she know, pay
25 much attention to what day of the week it was?

0237
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
2 THOMAS HANEY: So whatever would
3 come out of the drawer?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
5 THOMAS HANEY: Would she or could
6 she have ever exchanged panties with some other
7 girl that she was playing with?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, probably.
9 You know, if they went swimming or something and
10 got something wet or, ....
14 THOMAS HANEY: So they just kind of
15 go in the laundry, maybe get sorted out?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, then the next
17 thing you see, say oh, here, something [what?]....

PR never commits to JBs panties. She remains steadfast and vague even in the parts you listed. PR held this particular personality the entire time of her interviews. "Oh, that? She might say. What is that doing there? That does not seem right? I don't know. It's just weird." Eyes roll.

I went back to her replies about FAO and she only admits to having the toys shipped; not the panties. I may be mistaken on including the Days of the Week panties as being shipped with the toys to Boulder unless I read it elsewhere yrs ago.

0272
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch
21 of gifts at FAO Swartz up in New York in early
22 December, some of which were for them were for
23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
24 know they were in the closet exactly,

(SNIP)

0273
13 LOU SMIT: You notice how the packages seem
14 to be partially opened. Can you explain this?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't.
16 LOU SMIT: So Patsy had gone there and
17 just kind looked to see what was (INAUDBILE)?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. (INAUDIBLE) I mean,
19 you can figure out what's in them. The cigar box
20 was sitting on a paint can, or something like
21 that. And I believe it shouldn't have. [I wonder if FW moved the cigar box and placed it on the paint can?]

0392
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe for, you know, I
21 held some back for Burke's birthday which is in
22 January.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
24 TOM HANEY: So that could have been that.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember what

0393
1 was in them.
2 TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be
3 opened?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone
13 partially, that was --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done
15 that to peek to see what was in there.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.

Three presents wrapped in FAO gift wrapping paper were taken into police custody:
55KKY, 56KKY, 57KKY

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-oversize-bloomies.htm

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-fao-swartz.htm

 

[BoldBear]

Okay fine, but we have a package of underwear that the investigators didn't inventory. They weren't in JB's underwear drawer. Three packages were part of the evidence list from the basement. And the package of oversized underwear was...where? Patsy said JB wanted to keep them. So either they were a part of the packages in the basement or they weren't. We know that the Ramseys found them after moving and sent them to the police. Everything else is a guessing game.

Why is this important? It would put the killer in the windowless room before he dressed her. If the killer found them somewhere else, then the WC could have been a spur of the moment hiding place.

This also brings into question of someone who knew her room intimately or someone who went quickly looking through her room for clothes. If this person just found a package of underwear, he/she didn't need to go into the bathroom to find JB's underwear drawer. Patsy would know where that drawer was. John may or may not have known. There are actually things that parents don't pay close attention to. If your daughter's clothing drawers are more of the wife's responsibility the husband might need to go looking.

An intruder may have stumbled on them by accident in the WC, but an intruder who has left basically no evidence is peeling back the corners of packages in the basement. No. They didn't do that.

Could someone please tell me what I'm missing? Do we have a solid piece of evidence that puts the package of underwear in a specific location in the house? Or are we guessing that since they were from FAO that they should have been with the other packages? Guessing doesn't put them anywhere except in the house.

 

[Sunshine4Me]

Okay fine, but we have a package of underwear that the investigators didn't inventory. They weren't in JB's underwear drawer. Three packages were part of the evidence list from the basement. And the package of oversized underwear was...where? Patsy said JB wanted to keep them. So either they were a part of the packages in the basement or they weren't. We know that the Ramseys found them after moving and sent them to the police. Everything else is a guessing game.

Why is this important? It would put the killer in the windowless room before he dressed her. If the killer found them somewhere else, then the WC could have been a spur of the moment hiding place.

This also brings into question of someone who knew her room intimately or someone who went quickly looking through her room for clothes. If this person just found a package of underwear, he/she didn't need to go into the bathroom to find JB's underwear drawer. Patsy would know where that drawer was. John may or may not have known. There are actually things that parents don't pay close attention to. If your daughter's clothing drawers are more of the wife's responsibility the husband might need to go looking.

An intruder may have stumbled on them by accident in the WC, but an intruder who has left basically no evidence is peeling back the corners of packages in the basement. No. They didn't do that.

Could someone please tell me what I'm missing? Do we have a solid piece of evidence that puts the package of underwear in a specific location in the house? Or are we guessing that since they were from FAO that they should have been with the other packages? Guessing doesn't put them anywhere except in the house.

I think Patsy said in one of her interviews that she opened the package and put them in Jonbenet's drawer. The question is do we believe Patsy?

 

[UKGuy]

I think Patsy said in one of her interviews that she opened the package and put them in Jonbenet's drawer. The question is do we believe Patsy?

Sunshine4Me,
If you believe Patsy, then who took them out, and never told Patsy, right up to her interview on the subject. Patsy says she never knew JonBenet was wearing size-12's until she read it in the press.

Also if you think Patsy was involved in the stage or even asphyxiating JonBenet, then the person who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's left Patsy hanging out to dry!

Why would anyone travel up to JonBenet's bedroom and fetch an over-sized pair of pants when the drawer was full of her usual sized underwear?

Patsy's tale about the size-12's is suspect: Patsy purchases the size-12's for her niece Jenny, they arrive back in Boulder, and are deposited in the house.

Patsy, despite claiming they were purchased as a Christmas gift, never mailed them to Jenny, they were still in the house on Christmas Day, patently they were going nowhere either!

According to the BPD no size-12's were found in JonBenet's underwear drawer or anywhere else in the house, alike her size-6 underwear and pajama bottoms, they had vanished!

.
.

 

[UKGuy]

Okay fine, but we have a package of underwear that the investigators didn't inventory. They weren't in JB's underwear drawer. Three packages were part of the evidence list from the basement. And the package of oversized underwear was...where? Patsy said JB wanted to keep them. So either they were a part of the packages in the basement or they weren't. We know that the Ramseys found them after moving and sent them to the police. Everything else is a guessing game.

Why is this important? It would put the killer in the windowless room before he dressed her. If the killer found them somewhere else, then the WC could have been a spur of the moment hiding place.

This also brings into question of someone who knew her room intimately or someone who went quickly looking through her room for clothes. If this person just found a package of underwear, he/she didn't need to go into the bathroom to find JB's underwear drawer. Patsy would know where that drawer was. John may or may not have known. There are actually things that parents don't pay close attention to. If your daughter's clothing drawers are more of the wife's responsibility the husband might need to go looking.

An intruder may have stumbled on them by accident in the WC, but an intruder who has left basically no evidence is peeling back the corners of packages in the basement. No. They didn't do that.

Could someone please tell me what I'm missing? Do we have a solid piece of evidence that puts the package of underwear in a specific location in the house? Or are we guessing that since they were from FAO that they should have been with the other packages? Guessing doesn't put them anywhere except in the house.

BoldBear,

Or are we guessing that since they were from FAO that they should have been with the other packages?

Yes, that's about it. Patsy says she bought them in New York early December, but never explicitly said the size-12's were also mailed by FAO Swartz?

I'm presuming the gifts were wrapped in the original FAO Swartz paper, otherwise why would Patsy wrap gifts then not name tag them? Since she later said she must have opened them to see what was in them, yet more Patsy *advertiser censored* laude nonsense.

The telling point is that Jenny was never mailed her size-12's and Patsy never knew they were missing!

.

 

[Sunshine4Me]

Sunshine4Me,
If you believe Patsy, then who took them out, and never told Patsy, right up to her interview on the subject. Patsy says she never knew JonBenet was wearing size-12's until she read it in the press.

Also if you think Patsy was involved in the stage or even asphyxiating JonBenet, then the person who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's left Patsy hanging out to dry!

Why would anyone travel up to JonBenet's bedroom and fetch an over-sized pair of pants when the drawer was full of her usual sized underwear?

Patsy's tale about the size-12's is suspect: Patsy purchases the size-12's for her niece Jenny, they arrive back in Boulder, and are deposited in the house.

Patsy, despite claiming they were purchased as a Christmas gift, never mailed them to Jenny, they were still in the house on Christmas Day, patently they were going nowhere either!

According to the BPD no size-12's were found in JonBenet's underwear drawer or anywhere else in the house, alike her size-6 underwear and pajama bottoms, they had vanished!

.
.

I don't believe Patsy. But I do believe there is a small possibility she didn't know they were on her if she wasn't the Ramsey who redressed her, and when confronted with the panty question, explained it away however she felt she could. Now, I'm not sure she wasn't the one who redressed her, I actually think she was. But I do leave room for the chance that the panties had been unwrapped by peeping children, and left out unwrapped in the wine cellar where John saw them and used them for the redressing. I am BDI with Patsy staging, but John could have helped with staging. Either way Patsy would be lying about the panties.

 

[Tadpole12]

Are the FAO Swartz packages indistinguishable wrt size?

http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996foaschwartz.jpg

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4560&stc=1&d=1344808951

http://www.acandyrose.com/12251996christmasmorning.gif

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4557&stc=1&d=1344665591

 

[BBB167893]

Sunshine4Me,
If you believe Patsy, then who took them out, and never told Patsy, right up to her interview on the subject. Patsy says she never knew JonBenet was wearing size-12's until she read it in the press.

Also if you think Patsy was involved in the stage or even asphyxiating JonBenet, then the person who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's left Patsy hanging out to dry!

That possibility has occurred to me.

Why would anyone travel up to JonBenet's bedroom and fetch an over-sized pair of pants when the drawer was full of her usual sized underwear?

How do we know the drawer was full of her usual underwear? Maybe the size 12's were the only clean ones.

Patsy's tale about the size-12's is suspect: Patsy purchases the size-12's for her niece Jenny, they arrive back in Boulder, and are deposited in the house.

Patsy, despite claiming they were purchased as a Christmas gift, never mailed them to Jenny, they were still in the house on Christmas Day, patently they were going nowhere either!

According to the BPD no size-12's were found in JonBenet's underwear drawer or anywhere else in the house, alike her size-6 underwear and pajama bottoms, they had vanished!

Yeah, it's suspect. But what does it tell us?

 

[BBB167893]

I don't believe Patsy. But I do believe there is a small possibility she didn't know they were on her if she wasn't the Ramsey who redressed her, and when confronted with the panty question, explained it away however she felt she could. Now, I'm not sure she wasn't the one who redressed her, I actually think she was. But I do leave room for the chance that the panties had been unwrapped by peeping children, and left out unwrapped in the wine cellar where John saw them and used them for the redressing. I am BDI with Patsy staging, but John could have helped with staging. Either way Patsy would be lying about the panties.

I have at times wondered just how much of the staging was split between the two. I figure John handled a lot, if not all of the things involving JB's lower half. And a man probably would make a mistake like that (if anything else were available). So, how much did Patsy know? Was she involved in that? Or was she upstairs formulating a "ransom" letter while all that went on?

 

[Sunshine4Me]

I have at times wondered just how much of the staging was split between the two. I figure John handled a lot, if not all of the things involving JB's lower half. And a man probably would make a mistake like that (if anything else were available). So, how much did Patsy know? Was she involved in that? Or was she upstairs formulating a "ransom" letter while all that went on?

I'm back and forth on that. I agree oversized panties are not a mothers mistake. The only way I see Patsy picking those is to make it appear to have been done by a stranger, because who would think a mother wouldn't know which panties to put on her daughter? But that leaves the door open for the possibility the father put them on her. I could see a father making that mistake. Perhaps it was done just to confuse us.

I think Patsy wrote the ransom note, and I really don't believe John knew what it said. So either he didn't know because he was upstairs sleeping, or because he was downstairs staging. Correct me please if I'm wrong, but the only thing that places John downstairs are the fibers that were consistent with his sweater. I'm not convinced the fibers weren't from a washcloth or towel used to clean her. I love Egyptian cotton, maybe they loved Israeli cotton. But I don't know that they had towels made from Israeli cotton, so I will assume for this comment that the fibers were indeed from his sweater. If so, John would have done the redressing, saw the unwrapped package of panties in the wine cellar, and assumed they were fine for JBR, not realizing how big of a mistake he made in choosing them. That would also be why he didn't tell Patsy, he didn't realize there was anything to tell.

In any scenario I come up with, all 3 Ramsey's know the truth about the murder at least by the time the 911 call is placed. I feel like Patsy did most of the staging. I think John did go to bed that night and was woken up by Patsy after most of the staging was completed. She explained the situation to him, and he helped with what little staging was left because he wasn't going to lose his wife and son as well.

So in a nutshell:
Burke- hit, assaulted with paintbrush, and strangled JBR (but not hard enough for her to die from his strangulation)
-After this everyone thinks she is dead, and she appears dead.

Patsy- made the ligature Burke used into more of a sexual sadist device with the piece of paintbrush, placed it back on JBR, ultimately killing her
-drew the heart
-got the blanket to wrap her with
-wrote the ransom note
-left her with her favorite nightgown and a stuffed animal

John- cleaned and redressed JBR
- disposed of the evidence (cord, and tape if it came from a roll)
- cleaned the flashlight (seems more like something a man would think of than a woman, especially if the batteries were in fact wiped down)
- possible window staging
-carried her into the wine cellar

It's all my own speculation and changes from time to time, but this is the gist of who I think did what. John would have done his stuff while Patsy wrote the ransom note, when both were finished it was time to call 911.

Edited to add that if the sweater fibers were from a towel made of the same cotton, I think Patsy did the redressing. Only because I have a hard time believing a father who didn't help a living JBR in the bathtub or changing into night clothes, would be comfortable cleaning and dressing her while dead (Not that anyone would be comfortable with that.) In which case John would have disposed of evidence, cleaned the flashlight, and done the possible window staging, with Patsy doing the redressing and the rest. If so, the panties would have been chosen simply to confuse investigators.

 

[BBB167893]

I'm back and forth on that. I agree oversized panties are not a mothers mistake. The only way I see Patsy picking those is to make it appear to have been done by a stranger, because who would think a mother wouldn't know which panties to put on her daughter? But that leaves the door open for the possibility the father put them on her. I could see a father making that mistake. Perhaps it was done just to confuse us.

I think Patsy wrote the ransom note, and I really don't believe John knew what it said. So either he didn't know because he was upstairs sleeping, or because he was downstairs staging. Correct me please if I'm wrong, but the only thing that places John downstairs are the fibers that were consistent with his sweater. I'm not convinced the fibers weren't from a washcloth or towel used to clean her. I love Egyptian cotton, maybe they loved Israeli cotton. But I don't know that they had towels made from Israeli cotton, so I will assume for this comment that the fibers were indeed from his sweater. If so, John would have done the redressing, saw the unwrapped package of panties in the wine cellar, and assumed they were fine for JBR, not realizing how big of a mistake he made in choosing them. That would also be why he didn't tell Patsy, he didn't realize there was anything to tell.

That's the best summation I've heard yet, Sunshine4Me.

In any scenario I come up with, all 3 Ramsey's know the truth about the murder at least by the time the 911 call is placed. I feel like Patsy did most of the staging. I think John did go to bed that night and was woken up by Patsy after most of the staging was completed. She explained the situation to him, and he helped with what little staging was left because he wasn't going to lose his wife and son as well.

That's an interesting idea, to be sure. I just can't go along with it. I can't see John going along with her explanation alone. To me, he was right in the thick of the action. He had Patsy running so fast she didn't really have time to think. Once reality hit her, she was fully committed.

So in a nutshell:
Burke- hit, assaulted with paintbrush, and strangled JBR (but not hard enough for her to die from his strangulation)
-After this everyone thinks she is dead, and she appears dead.

Patsy- made the ligature Burke used into more of a sexual sadist device with the piece of paintbrush, placed it back on JBR, ultimately killing her
-drew the heart
-got the blanket to wrap her with
-wrote the ransom note
-left her with her favorite nightgown and a stuffed animal

John- cleaned and redressed JBR
- disposed of the evidence (cord, and tape if it came from a roll)
- cleaned the flashlight (seems more like something a man would think of than a woman, especially if the batteries were in fact wiped down)
- possible window staging
-carried her into the wine cellar

Again, I applaud you. But I can't go along with Burke being responsible. I've never believed it.

It's all my own speculation and changes from time to time, but this is the gist of who I think did what. John would have done his stuff while Patsy wrote the ransom note, when both were finished it was time to call 911.

Sounds right to me.

Edited to add that if the sweater fibers were from a towel made of the same cotton, I think Patsy did the redressing. Only because I have a hard time believing a father who didn't help a living JBR in the bathtub or changing into night clothes, would be comfortable cleaning and dressing her while dead (Not that anyone would be comfortable with that.) In which case John would have disposed of evidence, cleaned the flashlight, and done the possible window staging, with Patsy doing the redressing and the rest. If so, the panties would have been chosen simply to confuse investigators.

I don't know, Sunshine. But, like you say, no one would be comfortable with that. But then, I've got the idea that John was sharing other "tender moments" with JB. (God forgive me for saying that.)

 

[BoldBear]

Now after all that, my point is that we can only guess where the underwear was located. An educated guess puts them in the WC, but that's only a guess. It's not fact.

My next guess is that the package was not left in the WC. It may have been left somewhere in the basement. They wouldn't be on the 1st floor because...reasons. JB's bedroom would have been thoroughly searched, but they could have been left there. MR's room or JAR's room. They couldn't have been left in a focus of the crime scene and some place so mundane they would have been overlooked. Of course, if the evidence of where they were located was withheld, finding them on the 3rd floor would be something of a smoking gun.