The Phone Calls in the early morning of Dec.18, 2013 (both PayPhone & cells)

[Rochestergirl]

I thought it was discussed in earlier threads that T-mobile reports time in a different time-zone and that could be the discrepancy.

Also IMO maybe LE was giving misleading times to see if SM/TM gave a time after 3:41 AM they had contact with Heather. If they gave a time after that they would have them seeing they knew something has happened to her at 3:41.

 

[PPKik]

there was a video, don't remember which, with Terry Elvis looking into the camera and saying 3:41 was the last time Heather used her phone and the way he said it, I knew he was saying it was over for her at that time, and I'm sure he would have not wanted to have to admit that. I'm sure he would have preferred more communication from her phone that he felt he could attribute to her, but he could not. At that time I thought well, if there is more phone activity he is saying it was due to someone else. Even the way he stressed- that was the last time Heather used her phone, still made me think there was something more regarding the phone, so yes, it was interesting that now it's all data ended at that time. Odds are there is very many more instances of circumstantial evidence which have not been that hard to come by given the personalities involved.

I remember that, and I remember him saying that more than once. I always wondered, when he said 3:41am, how he would know, and LE who had access to his phone logs and more, through their subpoena powers, would still be saying "back and forth until 6am"?

That was and is very strange. At the bond hearing, when the solicitor went back to that 3:41am time for all activity ending, and fluffed off the 6am time as a "roundabout figure," as though it meant nothing, that is when I began to doubt what they had.

The solicitor seemed be be improvising and pulling out numbers and "facts" as she needed them without reason or logic, except to keep the Moorers from getting bond.

How did Terry Elvis know that time so early, when there were multiple agencies, including the feds and SLED, working on the case when they said there was "communication until 6am between Heather and Sidney Moorer"? The LE agencies investigating said that. There was much to it than just what was in the original police report. They confirmed it later.


http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_ada6ad1c-8f77-11e3-8ca7-001a4bcf6878.html

 

[jillycat]

I'm not sure why we should stick to the 12/19 report when even the police have abandoned its references to the phone log.

"The original missing persons police report from Dec. 19, 2013 said Terry Elvis showed police T-Mobile phone records indicating phone activity between Heather Elvis and Sidney Moorer as late as 6 a.m. Dec. 18. Lt. Robert Kegler, spokesman for Horry County police, said Tuesday afternoon that 3:41 a.m. is now the time police say when all phone data ended.

“The information [Donna Elder] gave is the information that I can give out,” Kegler said. “The original police report is just that. That’s what was known at the time. Other things have come out since then, which was said yesterday in court.”

Solicitor Jimmy Richardson agreed, saying the 6 a.m. time was a “roundabout figure.”

“That was just a really preliminary report that was sent out,” Richardson said. “We believe that by 6 a.m., Heather Elvis was already in harm’s way.”
http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/article_588cb81e-ae0b-11e3-86e2-0017a43b2370.html?mode=jqm

There is a difference between Terry Elvis statements from the mouth of Terry Elvis and documents with references to what Terry Elvis (supposedly) said.

Reading the subsequent remarks of the police about the phone log, it seems to me that this is a case of the police wanting to be vague about the timeline in the earlier stages of the investigation. Since the "other things that have come out since then" cannot include a timeline that goes backwards, what 'has come out' is likely the additional circumstantial evidence that supports murder charges against the Moorer's.

I've never bought that Terry Elvis didn't grasp that 3:41 was actually 6:00, and that it continued to escape him when he handed his records to the police, then went on to discuss the phone log in future interviews.

According to the media, the police have also said the communications between Heather and SM were "mostly through private messaging, between 2 and 6", so it's anybody's guess what that means, in addition to the "roundabout figure" now debunked by police.

I believe that what this all distills down to is Heather was deceased, or at the very least incapacitated, shortly after 3:41 a.m.

I think it's likely that the PTL murder scene may turn out to be a "roundabout" as well, but time will tell.

 

[NWLady]

Mistaken? 0600 hours doesn't look anything like 0341 hours :floorlaugh: No seriously, I know what you mean. Really though, unless all their cell numbers are almost identical it's kind of hard to make a mistake in my opinion. Call/activity logs, how are they set up? Do they have a specific cell number, with every incoming and outcoming call showing--then another number, with all the activity on that number i.e.

Cell no. 021 023 2123

17/12/13 2334hrs 027 343 3454
18/12/13 0100hrs 027 343 3454
18/12/13 0300hrs 027 343 3454

Cell no. 021 112 3333

17/12/13 2230hrs 025 555 1122
18/12/13 0200hrs 025 555 1122

If the call/history log shows something like the above, there cannot be a mistake, no matter how many members in the family have their cell number charged to the same account. Still, it's possible to make a mistake I suppose lol, but highly unlikely in my opinion especially when a member of your family is missing. You'd think there would be no room for mistakes. :scared:

Okay, I will explain in further detail what I was trying to say. A family member was involved in an accident in the recent past. To make a long story short, a time frame had to be narrowed down, which included most recent phone calls, texts etc. All parties involved had Verizon Wireless as their carrier (including myself, although we were all on our own individual plans). I called Verizon Wireless, they told me to log into "My Verizon" online and I could obtain and print a copy of my calls and text logs, which included to and from messages, phone calls, etc. However, that call log still did NOT show all the phone activity that it should have (even though our phones themselves did show the accurate information, the call logs did NOT!). It took a subpoena to get Verizon Wireless to review and finally submit the call logs which did then show things correctly. Their reasoning/excuses were that sometimes it takes 24-48 hours for all phone activity to be displayed per the call logs that we have access to by logging into our accounts online. I rest my case...

 

[PPKik]

Okay, I will explain in further detail what I was trying to say. A family member was involved in an accident in the recent past. To make a long story short, a time frame had to be narrowed down, which included most recent phone calls, texts etc. All parties involved had Verizon Wireless as their carrier (including myself, although we were all on our own individual plans). I called Verizon Wireless, they told me to log into "My Verizon" online and I could obtain and print a copy of my calls and text logs, which included to and from messages, phone calls, etc. However, that call log still did NOT show all the phone activity that it should have (even though our phones themselves did show the accurate information, the call logs did NOT!). It took a subpoena to get Verizon Wireless to review and finally submit the call logs which did then show things correctly. Their reasoning/excuses were that sometimes it takes 24-48 hours for all phone activity to be displayed per the call logs that we have access to by logging into our accounts online. I rest my case...

I see your point and you are right about what happened to you. Now, taking that to this case, Terry Elvis didn't check his cell phone logs until the night of Dec. 19th. We don't know the exact time, but everything we are reading and hearing about now seems to have been there on that log. What was missing that came up later?

What we are dealing with here are two irreconcilable and contradictory statements by LE.

All communications ended at 3:41am v. communications were back and forth until 6am.

Irreconcilable, but what is true?


This is quoted from the Feb 6, 2014 press conference held less than two weeks, not two months, before the Moorers were arrested:


**"Everything indicates that she drove there," said Lt. Chip Squires, the task force leader. "We do not have anything that indicates she did not drive there."

**Investigators also confirmed earlier reports of cell phone communications between Heather Elvis and Sidney Moorer, a 38-year-old Horry County man with whom police records state she had a relationship history.

**Those communications occurred as late as 6 a.m. Dec. 18, police records state.

**Investigators would not elaborate on the nature of the discussions between Elvis and Moorer.

**They did say Elvis and Moorer exchanged communications between 2 and 6 a.m., mostly through private messaging, but investigators wouldn’t say what those discussions entailed either.


http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_ada6ad1c-8f77-11e3-8ca7-001a4bcf6878.html


I look forward to reading any post that can explain how all communications ended at 3:41am, but continued until 6am.

 

[UndiscoveredTruth]

I see your point and you are right about what happened to you. Now, taking that to this case, Terry Elvis didn't check his cell phone logs until the night of Dec. 19th. We don't know the exact time, but everything we are reading and hearing about now seems to have been there on that log. What was missing that came up later?

What we are dealing with here are two irreconcilable and contradictory statements by LE.

All communications ended at 3:41am v. communications were back and forth until 6am.

Irreconcilable, but what is true?


This is quoted from the Feb 6, 2014 press conference held less than two weeks, not two months, before the Moorers were arrested:


**"Everything indicates that she drove there," said Lt. Chip Squires, the task force leader. "We do not have anything that indicates she did not drive there."

**Investigators also confirmed earlier reports of cell phone communications between Heather Elvis and Sidney Moorer, a 38-year-old Horry County man with whom police records state she had a relationship history.

**Those communications occurred as late as 6 a.m. Dec. 18, police records state.

**Investigators would not elaborate on the nature of the discussions between Elvis and Moorer.

**They did say Elvis and Moorer exchanged communications between 2 and 6 a.m., mostly through private messaging, but investigators wouldn’t say what those discussions entailed either.


http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_ada6ad1c-8f77-11e3-8ca7-001a4bcf6878.html


I look forward to reading any post that can explain how all communications ended at 3:41am, but continued until 6am.

:goodpost:

 

[NFYIAMY]

I wonder.....

If Heather had VM set up on her phone --- there COULD HAVE BEEN CALLS SHOW UP ON THE LOG........even if her actual phone was destroyed/smashed to bits/etc.

The call log could show INCOMING calls (past the 3:41 time).

That could be why the initial 2-6 a.m.

After obtaining more information about the phone - the GPS signal information - etc - they were able to narrow it down to the time of 3:41 (regardless of if the log showed incoming calls to the phone) as the time HEATHER'S PHONE basically went ~poof~

 

[NFYIAMY]

hoppy I hope you have misunderstood what I have been saying.

In no way have I suggested you were not credible, or verified, nor have I impugned anything you have said. I have never doubted what you saw and heard at the bond hearing.

What I doubt is what the state is alleging with all the shifts and changes they have made. That has absolutely nothing to do with what you heard and reported. I am sorry if somehow you thought I was doubting you, as your post seems to suggest you thought I was.

I was under the impression from what I was able to gather from the bond hearing that all activity did stop. I wasn't at the bond hearing so when people have written "all data stopped," making a distiction between "data transmission" and other form of communication, I have tried to understand exactly what that means.

Here you have stated unequivically that all communications stopped.

"At the bond hearing the state said that at 3:41 EVERYTHING stopped from Heather's phone."

That is extremely helpful because of the general confusion of different terms such as "data," "communications," "data activity," "activity"ad nauseum, not just what these terms really mean, but mean to the individuals using them. Are they being precise, or just using handy terminology? And our interpretation of these terms here: Are we all here understanding these terms the same way as they meant them, or just what they mean to us? I'd say NO, we do not understand all these terms the same way!

You wrote: "I know LE can make things up but I wouldn't think the prosecution would..."

I've probably said more than enough on this subject already, but prosecutors can and do make things up, just as LE can and do make things up. I sincerely wonder why you wouldn't think they do. Check out Mike Nifong...

The fact that Donna Elder said so and so, Heather was afraid, etc. is simply what she is saying. There has never been a source or any proof whatsoever. As I have written, all Heather's actions showed the opposite.

How does Donna Elder know that the relationship was over when she said? How does she know that they didn't see each other at all, after it was over? How does she know that SM "cared" for Heather? Just because she said it, doesn't make it true, no matter how many people heard it at the hearing.

I don't know who did what in this case in terms of investigation, but typically LE gathers the evidence that the prosecution uses to prosecute, though this office does seem to have its own investigator, too. I'd say, from what I've read, that most of what Elder is alleging has come from LE.

If Sidney Moorer is proved to be guilty of the major felony charges, then I would very much doubt he cared at all.

If you follow enough trials, or have been involved in any, you will soon see that not everything the prosecution alleges is true by a long shot, nor is everything the defense says.

Trials are not just about "real proof," or "absolute truth," or even justice in many cases, but about many other factors, such as who has the most convincing experts and how much money is spent on good ones, which lawyers are the most convincing and charismatic, what kind and quality is the jury pool [See Casey Anthony], even how sympathetic a defendant may seem or not seem, etc. and etc.

FWIW I didn't take anything personally. I was simply posting from the 'maybe I can help' thought. (guess it didn't transfer my 'tone' well? LOL)

I think that Heather's friends, co-workers and others have stated much about the relationship with Heather and SM. What they saw, heard, observed etc. Folks at the TK have said "they were so sweet to each other. .....they'd bring each other coffee...." etc. That same group (family, friends, co-workers) have stated that Heather was afraid/worried about/etc some of the things TM was doing. Remember - what that looks like to a 20 year old.

It's all good - and hopefully one day we will know for certain some of these details. I was actually out at BATB yesterday and my mind was quickly on Heather. So stinking sad.

 

[SStarr33]

I wonder.....

If Heather had VM set up on her phone --- there COULD HAVE BEEN CALLS SHOW UP ON THE LOG........even if her actual phone was destroyed/smashed to bits/etc.

The call log could show INCOMING calls (past the 3:41 time).

That could be why the initial 2-6 a.m.

After obtaining more information about the phone - the GPS signal information - etc - they were able to narrow it down to the time of 3:41 (regardless of if the log showed incoming calls to the phone) as the time HEATHER'S PHONE basically went ~poof~

No doubt there was activity going to her phone WELL after she was killed.

 

[magnolia]

FWIW I didn't take anything personally. I was simply posting from the 'maybe I can help' thought. (guess it didn't transfer my 'tone' well? LOL)

I think that Heather's friends, co-workers and others have stated much about the relationship with Heather and SM. What they saw, heard, observed etc. Folks at the TK have said "they were so sweet to each other. .....they'd bring each other coffee...." etc. That same group (family, friends, co-workers) have stated that Heather was afraid/worried about/etc some of the things TM was doing. Remember - what that looks like to a 20 year old.

It's all good - and hopefully one day we will know for certain some of these details. I was actually out at BATB yesterday and my mind was quickly on Heather. So stinking sad.

Thanks Hoppy~

BBM

Apparently, Heather's friends and co-workers knew so much, they were able to remark on the relationship. I'm bewildered that a married man, supposedly controlled by his wife, and a young woman afraid of that wife, would put their relationship on display in a public setting.

 

[Motherof5]

Mistaken? 0600 hours doesn't look anything like 0341 hours :floorlaugh: No seriously, I know what you mean. Really though, unless all their cell numbers are almost identical it's kind of hard to make a mistake in my opinion. Call/activity logs, how are they set up? Do they have a specific cell number, with every incoming and outcoming call showing--then another number, with all the activity on that number i.e.

Cell no. 021 023 2123

17/12/13 2334hrs 027 343 3454
18/12/13 0100hrs 027 343 3454
18/12/13 0300hrs 027 343 3454

Cell no. 021 112 3333

17/12/13 2230hrs 025 555 1122
18/12/13 0200hrs 025 555 1122

If the call/history log shows something like the above, there cannot be a mistake, no matter how many members in the family have their cell number charged to the same account. Still, it's possible to make a mistake I suppose lol, but highly unlikely in my opinion especially when a member of your family is missing. You'd think there would be no room for mistakes. :scared:

I haven't read this entire convo but wanted to point out that it is possible to make a mistake with phone numbers that are almost the same,as you've said. I went to T-Mobile a few years ago to get cell phones for myself,as well as my son and daughter. We aren't with them anymore but kept the same numbers when we switched and this is how close our numbers are.


Me: 123-456-7650

Son: 123-456-7893

Daughter: 123-456-7894

I was always confusing my son's number with my daughter's as the only difference is the last number. Hope that helps.

 

[jillycat]

I see your point and you are right about what happened to you. Now, taking that to this case, Terry Elvis didn't check his cell phone logs until the night of Dec. 19th. We don't know the exact time, but everything we are reading and hearing about now seems to have been there on that log. What was missing that came up later?

What we are dealing with here are two irreconcilable and contradictory statements by LE.

All communications ended at 3:41am v. communications were back and forth until 6am.

Irreconcilable, but what is true?


This is quoted from the Feb 6, 2014 press conference held less than two weeks, not two months, before the Moorers were arrested:


**"Everything indicates that she drove there," said Lt. Chip Squires, the task force leader. "We do not have anything that indicates she did not drive there."

**Investigators also confirmed earlier reports of cell phone communications between Heather Elvis and Sidney Moorer, a 38-year-old Horry County man with whom police records state she had a relationship history.

**Those communications occurred as late as 6 a.m. Dec. 18, police records state.

**Investigators would not elaborate on the nature of the discussions between Elvis and Moorer.

**They did say Elvis and Moorer exchanged communications between 2 and 6 a.m., mostly through private messaging, but investigators wouldn’t say what those discussions entailed either.


http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_ada6ad1c-8f77-11e3-8ca7-001a4bcf6878.html


I look forward to reading any post that can explain how all communications ended at 3:41am, but continued until 6am.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that communications ended but continued, nor can anyone explain the remarks of LE. But since LE has acknowledged what Terry Elvis saw in the log on the 19th, I guess I don't see the utility of referencing dated remarks by LE?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Wouldn't anything people said about how Heather felt about Sidney and Tammy be hearsay? Heather was murdered, how we know that people didn't convince themselves that she was afraid? Or that their memory is off?

There are actually a lot of things in this case where I can see one side arguing to let it in, the other side objecting, and the judge making a decision. These include how Heather felt about Sidney and Tammy, Heather's twitter, Tammy's social media, FHE, police reports regarding harassment, etc.

 

[PPKik]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that communications ended but continued, nor can anyone explain the remarks of LE. But since LE has acknowledged what Terry Elvis saw in the log on the 19th, I guess I don't see the utility of referencing dated remarks by LE?

BBM


But since LE has acknowledged what Terry Elvis saw in the log on the 19th, I guess I don't see the utility of referencing dated remarks by LE?

I don't understand what you mean by LE acknowledging what Terry Elvis saw? Didn't LE see what he saw and much more? I don't think they did or had to acknowledge anything. They had logs and subpoena power to to get much more than Terry Elvis could see.

I also don't understand what you mean by "referencing dated remarks by LE." If you mean Feb. 6, 2014, that's not dated. Heather disappeared on Dec. 18, 2013 and the Moorers were arrested on Feb. 21, 2014

The remarks that are not dated were made less than two weeks before Sidney and Tammy Moorer were arrested. So, I'm trying to figure what is.

LE can't have the back and forth going on until 6am if Heather was killed at PTL like they say, and all communication on her phone stopped at 3:41am. If SM and TM had used Heather's phone to create a false lead, then all communication on her phone would not have stopped at 3:41am.

 

[Madeleine74]

Sounds like it's time to place yer bets. The outcome will be revealed during trial. Until then it will remain a mystery.

 

[jillycat]

BBM


But since LE has acknowledged what Terry Elvis saw in the log on the 19th, I guess I don't see the utility of referencing dated remarks by LE?

I don't understand what you mean by LE acknowledging what Terry Elvis saw? Didn't LE see what he saw and much more? I don't think they did or had to acknowledge anything. They had logs and subpoena power to to get much more than Terry Elvis could see.

I also don't understand what you mean by "referencing dated remarks by LE." If you mean Feb. 6, 2014, that's not dated. Heather disappeared on Dec. 18, 2013 and the Moorers were arrested on Feb. 21, 2014

The remarks that are not dated were made less than two weeks before Sidney and Tammy Moorer were arrested. So, I'm trying to figure what is.

LE can't have the back and forth going on until 6am if Heather was killed at PTL like they say, and all communication on her phone stopped at 3:41am. If SM and TM had used Heather's phone to create a false lead, then all communication on her phone would not have stopped at 3:41am.

I do not understand what you're saying.

Terry Elvis has maintained that 3:41 was the last time the phone did anything. LE now says that 3:41 was the last time the phone did anything. LE also now says that the 6:00 time referenced initially was a "roundabout figure". LE said this the day after the bond hearing on 3/17, which was well after 12/18 and 2/6. So the 2/6 report is dated given the subsequent March remarks.

Again, why are we using a previous report referencing a time no longer considered by LE?

My remark about the M's and a contrived phone timeline was in reference to the theory advanced by some that the phone was used after 3:41.

As for subpoenas, no need for one for logs.

I can access my account and see anything I've done at any time. Right after it happened. I've done this after deleting texts and recent calls I needed to reference.

Subpoenas are necessary to view content, not call and text activity or times. I know this because I have a dispute with a mechanic and last week I pulled 6 months of cell calls concerning my issue. What I can't see is text content, and when I asked Verizon about retrieving it, they said they can only release content via subpoena because privacy laws prohibit them from accessing it. But the Verizon rep was online with me searching one call in particular on my log when I couldn't find it. She found it, I still couldn't, and as it turned out, I had not clicked the right year in the drop box when I went into that time range, and was simply looking in the wrong place. But it was there all along because activity is documented as it happens.

The Heather phone log boils down to the 3:41 time as aligning with the crime against her.

I don't see anything to bet on other than the log says what it says and has always said and Terry Elvis saw what was there.

 

[LambChop]

So if her cell phone shows activity at 6am where was the location of the cell phone?

 

[Madeleine74]

Exactly. If there was activity on HE's cell phone up to 6am then that phone was receiving data from the cell tower, which is in direct opposition to what LE said about her phone.

However, if other people were trying to reach HE on her cell phone and that cell phone was off or disabled, there would be 'activity' at the server/account level, showing incoming calls or messages, but there would not be any response or activity by the phone itself.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Wouldn't anything people said about how Heather felt about Sidney and Tammy be hearsay? Heather was murdered, how we know that people didn't convince themselves that she was afraid? Or that their memory is off?

There are actually a lot of things in this case where I can see one side arguing to let it in, the other side objecting, and the judge making a decision. These include how Heather felt about Sidney and Tammy, Heather's twitter, Tammy's social media, FHE, police reports regarding harassment, etc.

Say Heather told someone "I feel X way about Sidney." It's not hearsay if they are testifying to what Heather said to them. It is hearsay if they are testifying to how Heather actually felt.

Good attorneys find a reason to incorporate a conversation that contains what would otherwise be considered hearsay. ("So, BW, what did Heather say to you that night? Why was the phone call so short?") Much as we want it to be so, people can't really un-hear something they have heard.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Exactly. If there was activity on HE's cell phone up to 6am then that phone was receiving data from the cell tower, which is in direct opposition to what LE said about her phone.

However, if other people were trying to reach HE on her cell phone and that cell phone was off or disabled, there would be 'activity' at the server/account level, showing incoming calls or messages, but there would not be any response or activity by the phone itself.

BBM: I don't recall LE saying the opposite. The said all data ended at 3:41. Activity is not data. Activity includes texts, phone calls, photo messages. Those are not data related. Data is apps, internet, all the things a smart phone does that a dumb phone does not do. Terry Elvis also said that the last time the phone was used was 3:41. That doesn't mean the last time the phone pinged.

How do I know this? Because my daughter's phone was stolen last year. We disabled the data on it immediately, but the GPS, calling and texting ability still worked. The last time the phone was used before we shut it down completely was the last time my daughter saw it and used it (according to the bill). The data ended about a half hour after that, when we shut that down. But the phone itself sent out pings for us to track it (we got to the parking lot, but could not locate the exact car it was in) and we were able to call it But she had it on silent for school). So for an hour and a half after the phone had been stolen, the phone was not used (probably sitting in a glove box), all data had ended, but there was still activity on it.

I just know it can happen, because it did happen for us.