The Possible Abuse of Caylee REVISIT

[Curious Me]

After puttering around the house thinking about this I thought of something else.

Casey seems to wear rings on her fingers on a steady basis. Slapping a child while you are wearing a ring will leave a mark.

 

[wenwe4]

What I find of particular interest is how Caylee never had any playmates, no preschool, no daycare, no interaction with other toddlers and other caring adults who might have drawn attention to any possible abuse factors. If in fact KC did physically abuse Caylee, she had her own built in excuse for injuries to Caylee as "the other child at Zanny's" house could have inflicted the injury. There were no other eyes on this child, except the Grandparents (who were ineffective in keeping this baby safe), KC, and then all of KC's "musical sofa" friends/boyfriends/social group, etc. (so to speak). The social networks she involved herself with said she was a "good mom" and some people said she was attentive and over-protective, to others who said she was neglectful. KC, herself, admitted her Mom thought she was a bad parent and she even agreed with that statement (IIRC). Most of KC's friends who stood up for her parenting weren't parents themselves (I think).

 

[Gma Kat]

She was the mother - just how were they suppose to stop her? I don't for a minute think CA ALLOWED KC to drag Caylee around town --- I just don't think there was much she could do about it!!!

I am sorry to disagree, and I am surprised I am even posting this, but after over a year of seeing CA on TV I am convinced she could do whatever she put her mind to. If she wanted stop KC I think she could have, she just didn't. I think that weighs heavy on her now and we know she knew enough was wrong to threaten taking Caylee away from KC. I believe CA took the path of least resistence but was capable of controlling the situation if she chose to.

 

[Jolynna]

First, I raised two rowdy boys that had their share of accidents and bruises. It's normal to an extent. I have tons of their childhood photos, and probably none showing bruises on their faces on a steady basis.

I'm sure you all have seen it too...a parent that handles their child's body roughly. I've seen several examples of Casey being playful in a rough way. How much did she honor her daughter's small body as in taking care of the little angel?

It's an odd coincidence that there are photos of Caylee with different bruises near her eyes from different mishaps. Bruises in the same general area make me suspicious.

P.S. Wondering if bruises on the forehead are more common in children. Or is it common for children to get bruises under and so close to the eye on more than one occassion?

I am with you.

Ricardo and Tony, who didn't have any reason to photoshop out marks, just happened to have pictures of Caylee. And in their pictures Caylee has marks on her face. I am imagining KC telling her family stories about Caylee getting hurt on Zani's watch.

Andrea L. said at one of the hearings that not a single one of KC's friends could say they'd ever seen Caylee with marks. That isn't true. A hairdresser also says she saw Caylee with bruises.

As Caylee was probably killed only two weeks after Tony took his pictures of Caylee with the mark under her eye, I think it very possible that KC was physically abusive.

 

[logicalgirl]

What I find of particular interest is how Caylee never had any playmates, no preschool, no daycare, no interaction with other toddlers and other caring adults who might have drawn attention to any possible abuse factors. If in fact KC did physically abuse Caylee, she had her own built in excuse for injuries to Caylee as "the other child at Zanny's" house could have inflicted the injury. There were no other eyes on this child, except the Grandparents (who were ineffective in keeping this baby safe), KC, and then all of KC's "musical sofa" friends/boyfriends/social group, etc. (so to speak). The social networks she involved herself with said she was a "good mom" and some people said she was attentive and over-protective, to others who said she was neglectful. KC, herself, admitted her Mom thought she was a bad parent and she even agreed with that statement (IIRC). Most of KC's friends who stood up for her parenting weren't parents themselves (I think).

Isn't this behavior of no friends, little social contact, etc typical of those who come from co-dependent, addictive behavior backgrounds. That circle round the wagons and prepare to defend type of mentality? I - er-um- did come from that type of background and am still somewhat awkward in new social situations despite my rather advanced age. I force myself to do it but old habits - those taught in early childhood echo back very strong.

 

[cloud]

If the reports from Lee and the neighbor are correct that KC and CA did actually have a fight and CA choked KC (from Lee) it is very possible CA knows how Caylee died. In the birthday video when CA rubs icing on KC, KC then takes Caylees hand full of frosting and puts it in Caylee's face. KC doing to Caylee what her mother did to her. Seems like a pattern.

CA demanded KC come home because the car smelled like a "dead body was in the damn car", and CA knew KC was still alive.

As far as GA. He gets his dates mixed up to this day so I do not think he really remembers whether or not he saw them that day. It may comfort him to think he did. JMO

I can see that scenario happening, but the, why the duct tape? To seal the frosting in her mouth? (apologies about the graphics). And a heart sticker (or the shape of a heart sticker) on the tape on Caylee's mouth?

To me, that suggests at least "shut up for now or else"... or shut up for ever... not being gagged with frosting.

But that's JMO

 

[cloud]

First, I raised two rowdy boys that had their share of accidents and bruises. It's normal to an extent. I have tons of their childhood photos, and probably none showing bruises on their faces on a steady basis.

I'm sure you all have seen it too...a parent that handles their child's body roughly. I've seen several examples of Casey being playful in a rough way. How much did she honor her daughter's small body as in taking care of the little angel?

It's an odd coincidence that there are photos of Caylee with different bruises near her eyes from different mishaps. Bruises in the same general area make me suspicious.

P.S. Wondering if bruises on the forehead are more common in children. Or is it common for children to get bruises under and so close to the eye on more than one occassion?

I agree. I found it strange as well. Children will be children and hurt themselves at play, or whatever, but both eyes?... And why was she clinging to her grandfather so closely as if she was afraid to let go, the day before she "disappeared"?

Some have said she was afraid of him... all I saw was a little girl holding on to him as if for dear life. I have to wonder why.

Children, as innocent and yet untouched by the human deception that develops later as part of a survival mechanism, have inner, natural, instincts that adults no longer perceive, let alone understand.

I think that photo captured just that: a little girl who had a fear instinct and was clinging to someone whom she felt she could trust, someone who could protect her. We all now suspect from what, or whom, and it may be more than just one person - I would venture to say that it was. IMO, she was in the middle of a whole family drama, and she felt it instinctevly, as children do. And she was scared, probably felt guilty as well - like it's their fault.

Shame on adults who forget the children and put their own differences and guilt trips and gripes before the welfare of a child who needs love, comfort, happiness and joy around them to grow up as a well adjusted individual and a loved and loving person. Certainly not to die at 2 years of age because of the rage that's been fomenting in that family for goodness knows how long.

Sorry about the rant.

JMHO

 

[flourish]

First, I raised two rowdy boys that had their share of accidents and bruises. It's normal to an extent. I have tons of their childhood photos, and probably none showing bruises on their faces on a steady basis.

I'm sure you all have seen it too...a parent that handles their child's body roughly. I've seen several examples of Casey being playful in a rough way. How much did she honor her daughter's small body as in taking care of the little angel?

It's an odd coincidence that there are photos of Caylee with different bruises near her eyes from different mishaps. Bruises in the same general area make me suspicious.

P.S. Wondering if bruises on the forehead are more common in children. Or is it common for children to get bruises under and so close to the eye on more than one occassion?

I spend my days with 16 preschoolers (yes, I pull my hair out regularly). Facial bruises are not uncommon with these little guys, as their heads are just at the right height to hit things (tables, etc.). Plus, they get so busy playing they don't pay attention to where they are going, and haven't mastered the art of spacial awareness yet. And then there are my lovely students who enjoy throwing toys at their friends and/or striking their friends with their toys.

That being said, while the occasional bruise is normal, in my experience, it is not the norm for a child to have repeated facial bruises. More than about two separate incidents of facial bruising in one school year would probably raise a yellow or red flag with me, taking into account the holistic view of that child and their situation, of course (some kids are just clumsier than others, or maybe I'd actually witnessed the injury, etc.).

I absolutely believe that Casey murdered Caylee. However, I am not convinced that there was ongoing physical abuse in an overt manner. What do I mean? Let me explain further: I believe Caylee was abused prior to her murder. I also think she experienced some seriously dysfunctional family dynamics. I think she was actively used as a pawn by at least CA and Casey in their lifelong ongoing war with each other, and that is abusive. I think there was an attachment disorder here, as well (google "circle of security" or "attachment theory" for more information on that).

And I certainly think that Caylee was neglected, both of basic needs like regular nutritious food and emotionally when she was with Casey. Like, I can see her eating happy meals and tacos with Casey. I could also see her strapped in a car seat all day, which is abusive in plenty of ways and could potentially play a part in other abusive activities, or perhaps played a part in Caylee's death.

And the not talking while videotaping thing is just C R E E P Y and certainly isn't healthy for a developing child's sense of self and security and trust and anything.

However, I'm not convinced Caylee was regularly, if ever, actually struck by Casey or the other adults around her. If a neurologist were to look at her sideways smile and be able to determine something from that, that would be helpful information. If any of her skeleton had signs of past fractures or trauma, that would be helpful information. While the bruises are unsettling in the face of what we know was Caylee's ultimate fate, they don't necessarily convince me she was regularly hit.

Hope all this makes sense. My opinion is subject to change.

 

[flourish]

I agree. I found it strange as well. Children will be children and hurt themselves at play, or whatever, but both eyes?... And why was she clinging to her grandfather so closely as if she was afraid to let go, the day before she "disappeared"?

Some have said she was afraid of him... all I saw was a little girl holding on to him as if for dear life. I have to wonder why.

Chldren, as innocent and yet untouched by human deception that is part of a survival mechanism, have instincts that adults no longer perceive, let alone understand.

I think that photo captured just that: a little girl who had a fear instinct and was clinging to someone whe felt she could trust, someone who could protect her.

JMHO

I totally agree about great-grandpa. I was actually surprised the first time I saw that video because many little kids are freaked out by elderly people. No offense to anyone, of course, but I remember being a few years older than Caylee and dreading going to see my grandmother in the nursing home, not because I dreaded seeing grandma, I loved her, but because all the other elderly ladies wanted to touch my hair and I didn't know how to deal with that. Caylee's clinging to grandpa makes me feel some warmth in my heart that she had the safe comfort of his arms that day when she ultimately needed it the most.

 

[Curious Me]

I agree. I found it strange as well. Children will be children and hurt themselves at play, or whatever, but both eyes?... And why was she clinging to her grandfather so closely as if she was afraid to let go, the day before she "disappeared"?

Some have said she was afraid of him... all I saw was a little girl holding on to him as if for dear life. I have to wonder why.

Children, as innocent and yet untouched by the human deception that develops later as part of a survival mechanism, have inner, natural, instincts that adults no longer perceive, let alone understand.

I think that photo captured just that: a little girl who had a fear instinct and was clinging to someone whom she felt she could trust, someone who could protect her. We all now suspect from what, or whom, and it may be more than just one person - I would venture to say that it was. IMO, she was in the middle of a whole family drama, and she felt it instinctevly, as children do. And she was scared, probably felt guilty as well - like it's their fault.

Shame on adults who forget the children and put their own differences and guilt trips and gripes before the welfare of a child who needs love, comfort, happiness and joy around them to grow up as a well adjusted individual and a loved and loving person. Certainly not to die at 2 years of age because of the rage that's been fomenting in that family for goodness knows how long.

Sorry about the rant.

JMHO

cloud, you must see what I see when you look at Caylee on her GGP's lap. What I see chills me. She was clinging to a safe person! Something was disturbing her. Caylee was naturally so joyful, but in that video she looks troubled inside.

And yes, as others said, Caylee was kept fairly isolated within Casey's circle. I can't believe Caylee didn't have more of her own social circle of playmates. It is really hard to understand how she would be missing for 31 days, and no one else other than CA and GA were enough part of her life to raise a red flag. No regular get togethers with kids, no preschool or playgroups or dance lessons, and just Casey silenting video taping. Poor little girl.

 

[cloud]

cloud, you must see what I see when you look at Caylee on her GGP's lap. What I see chills me. She was clinging to a safe person! Something was disturbing her. Caylee was naturally so joyful, but in that video she looks troubled inside.

And yes, as others said, Caylee was kept fairly isolated within Casey's circle. I can't believe Caylee didn't have more of her own social circle of playmates. It is really hard to understand how she would be missing for 31 days, and no one else other than CA and GA were enough part of her life to raise a red flag. No regular get togethers with kids, no preschool or playgroups or dance lessons, and just Casey silenting video taping. Poor little girl.

Umm... exactly. To put the cherry on top, there's a "nanny" that never existed (except in Casey's deception), IMO, and no-one even bothered to even meet her until Caylee went "missing" supposedly at the hands of this "nanny". CA supposedly photographed the nanny's appartment after Caylee was gone for weeks... That's how you get to know your grandchild's "nanny", isn't it? After she goes "missing".

I think the waters run very deep in that family, and I doubt we're ever going to understand because they do stick together, in adversity, even though they seem (to me) to do it just to protect themselves, by protecting others in that closed circle.

It's just too weird for words, and IMO, totally off the planet. But maybe we live on different planets - certainly, CA, CA, GA and LA don't live on mine, and I'm grateful for that.

JMHO

 

[Curious Me]

flourish, you work with pre-schoolers, and I appreciated your opinion. You don't think it's odd then?

Well, Caylee had more than two bruises under her eye within a year, I believe. She wasn't even playing with other kids at the time. (How can you get hurt so often riding around in a car seat 'cause Mom Casey likes to drive around town all day long?) These bruise photos seem to happen with the regularity of new bfs.

I will have to allow that cell phones now make it much easier to take unplanned photos. I still think maybe Casey was starting to abuse Caylee towards the end of her life. Casey couldn't control herself or her impulsive actions anymore, even with Caylee.

 

[ynotdivein]

cloud, you must see what I see when you look at Caylee on her GGP's lap. What I see chills me. She was clinging to a safe person! Something was disturbing her. Caylee was naturally so joyful, but in that video she looks troubled inside.

And yes, as others said, Caylee was kept fairly isolated within Casey's circle. I can't believe Caylee didn't have more of her own social circle of playmates. It is really hard to understand how she would be missing for 31 days, and no one else other than CA and GA were enough part of her life to raise a red flag. No regular get togethers with kids, no preschool or playgroups or dance lessons, and just Casey silenting video taping. Poor little girl.

I can't agree with all of you more. Caylee in her great-grandpa's arms looks to me like a little frightened fawn huddled in a safe space. Her ear is pressed to his chest, she hears his heartbeat, he sings to her, he asks nothing of her... they are in a somehow sacred space together, that even CA's urgings to hug and kiss goodbye can't break through at first. There's no performance, no carseat, no carousel of beds-for-the-night, no arguments.

I may be utterly off base here, and this is of course MOO, but that video clip makes me cry. Every. Single. Time.

 

[Just Jayla]

I totally agree about great-grandpa. I was actually surprised the first time I saw that video because many little kids are freaked out by elderly people. No offense to anyone, of course, but I remember being a few years older than Caylee and dreading going to see my grandmother in the nursing home, not because I dreaded seeing grandma, I loved her, but because all the other elderly ladies wanted to touch my hair and I didn't know how to deal with that. Caylee's clinging to grandpa makes me feel some warmth in my heart that she had the safe comfort of his arms that day when she ultimately needed it the most.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking-It's very bittersweet that she got that moment of innocent, unabashed love before her death-Grandpa was like an angel letting her know it would be okay and he gave her a little peace.
I want to cuss KC right now.

 

[Curious Me]

I am with you.

Ricardo and Tony, who didn't have any reason to photoshop out marks, just happened to have pictures of Caylee. And in their pictures Caylee has marks on her face. I am imagining KC telling her family stories about Caylee getting hurt on Zani's watch.

Andrea L. said at one of the hearings that not a single one of KC's friends could say they'd ever seen Caylee with marks. That isn't true. A hairdresser also says she saw Caylee with bruises.

As Caylee was probably killed only two weeks after Tony took his pictures of Caylee with the mark under her eye, I think it very possible that KC was physically abusive.

I know you've followed this for quite awhile now. You've pointed things out before. It's really disturbing that there just happens to be these different photos and different bruises popping up in this case. Is the hairdresser going to be a witness at trial?

 

[flourish]

flourish, you work with pre-schoolers, and I appreciated your opinion. You don't think it's odd then?

Well, Caylee had more than two bruises under her eye within a year, I believe. She wasn't even playing with other kids at the time. (How can you get hurt so often riding around in a car seat 'cause Mom Casey likes to drive around town all day long?) These bruise photos seem to happen with the regularity of new bfs.

I will have to allow that cell phones now make it much easier to take unplanned photos. I still think maybe Casey was starting to abuse Caylee towards the end of her life. Casey couldn't control herself or her impulsive actions anymore, even with Caylee.

I do think it's odd, but I don't think that those two eye bruises alone are evidence of being hit. It's entirely possible that she was indeed struck. But I think it's also entirely possible that the two particular eye bruises here were caused by typical "kid stuff." However, I could also totally buy into an idea that they were caused by Casey's neglect, like falling down on her own because she was in an unsafe area or improperly supervised, for example.

For some reason, I feel like Casey was covert in her abuse up until "the big show." I don't really have anything to back that up, just my gut

 

[flourish]

Oh, and I haven't read up enough on the hairdresser's bruise story, so when I talk about bruises, I'm only talking about the two that I've seen photographs of.

 

[Curious Me]

Umm... exactly. To put the cherry on top, there's a "nanny" that never existed (except in Casey's deception), IMO, and no-one even bothered to even meet her until Caylee went "missing" supposedly at the hands of this "nanny". CA supposedly photographed the nanny's appartment after Caylee was gone for weeks... That's how you get to know your grandchild's "nanny", isn't it? After she goes "missing".

I think the waters run very deep in that family, and I doubt we're ever going to understand because they do stick together, in adversity, even though they seem (to me) to do it just to protect themselves, by protecting others in that closed circle.

It's just too weird for words, and IMO, totally off the planet. But maybe we live on different planets - certainly, CA, CA, GA and LA don't live on mine, and I'm grateful for that.

JMHO

I know! To top it all off, there's that imaginary nanny. CA is such a phony as far as presenting herself as tho' she was a perfect mother herself. I wanted to believe she was just the loving, caring GM, but then I find out she never bothered to meet or call this nanny. It's one thing to look at KC's actions, but then when you look at her family it doesn't seem real either. They all must be from another planet, I agree.

 

[cloud]

I can't agree with all of you more. Caylee in her great-grandpa's arms looks to me like a little firghtened fawn huddled in a safe space. Her ear is pressed to his chest, she hears his heartbeat, he sings to her, he asks nothing of her... they are in a somehow sacred space together, that even CA's urgings to hug and kiss goodbye can't break through at first. There's no performance, no carseat, no carousel of beds-for-the-night, no arguments.

I may be utterly off base here, and this is of course MOO, but that video clip makes me cry. Every. Single. Time.

You and me both. To think that the next day she was gone, and that I think she knew what or whom she was afraid of - that's the most awful thought in the world for a helpless child, or for anyone who has a heart.

God bless Caylee.

 

[Curious Me]

I can't agree with all of you more. Caylee in her great-grandpa's arms looks to me like a little firghtened fawn huddled in a safe space. Her ear is pressed to his chest, she hears his heartbeat, he sings to her, he asks nothing of her... they are in a somehow sacred space together, that even CA's urgings to hug and kiss goodbye can't break through at first. There's no performance, no carseat, no carousel of beds-for-the-night, no arguments.

I may be utterly off base here, and this is of course MOO, but that video clip makes me cry. Every. Single. Time.

It was such a beautiful moment to watch GGP and Caylee. You describe it so well that I got tears in my eyes. It is good to see she found such a sacred place of peace in that moment, and I honestly believe it had to be with GGP. Seems like no one else had that kind of peace to offer little Caylee.