The Ramseys are Cleared
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Japan - Miyazawa family of 4 murdered, Setagaya, Tokyo, 30 Dec 2000 #3- Latest: Charlot123
LI_Mom
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Annie, I have to agree... the ransom note is the main reason it's impossible to exclude the parents.
Even though it might seem preposterous that parents would do such a thing to their own child... that ransom note is just TOO, TOO weird & so you look at what the Ramseys said & did following her death.
What a case. Wow!
Even though it might seem preposterous that parents would do such a thing to their own child... that ransom note is just TOO, TOO weird & so you look at what the Ramseys said & did following her death.
What a case. Wow!
jubie
Former Member
For years, as with many of you, i have pondered this case and been on the fence at times, other times believing the Ramseys' couldnt have did this to their daughter,than reading at a dear friends very informative forum about the caseand getting chills with evidence pointed out ---( that lower case q made that looks like an 8 that both Patsy made and the RN write made ) convincing me that , "Omg , she (PR) had to be involved,had to be the one who wrote that note" ...
However, something that really struck me is when i listen to Patsy's 911 call, it right away reminded me of Brenda VanDams 911 call--- and Brenda ,who, we know was innocent victim -- theres a panic , a lot of "OMG , help me"..etc. same as or similar to Patsy's (sorry tried to find both 911 calls to post but couldnt come across actual link to them)-- and it made me re think her involvement in Jonbenet's murder----both mothers ,IMO sound similar in their fear, their panic and utter horror of whats going on---
Patsy, just a great actress or innocent?
So with the new DNA "touch evidence" , im not super convinced now the Rameys were involved ..but not totally convinced they didnt. Just more friggin confused then ever!:waitasec:
Once again .. Im on the fence again. .(with all due respect to my dear friend's forum and opinion :blowkiss
If not for that ransom note --i may well not have as hard a time with that to think of who did it or be as confused.. but the similarities with PR's writing and the amount of money ( JR's bonus amount --) if it werent them it had to be someone who work for John or very close knew their finances... ( wonder if thier accountant was looked into?
Great opinions here from many of you here--- its interesting reading -and you guys should be detectives yourselves!
Back to my corner now .:chicken:
Annie, I don't think on the 911 cal Patsy had to be either innocent or acting, I think she reacted to her daughter's death and was pleading for help or maybe even desperate for mercy? I think that's what you hear in her voice.
J.
jubie
Former Member
And they put my darling husband on chemo 3 weeks ago. I know the side effects are awful. He is loosing hair already and they said one of the side effects could be death ...........
Oh no, I'm so sorry and you'll both be in my prayers!! ((((Big hug))))
Squishified
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It does seem preposterous...but, if you accidentally kill your child then whatever you do is going to be done using stuff in the house..
Yes, the ransom note is too weird, too obviously a fake and too knowledgible about Ramsey's finances, it cannot have been written by a stranger and I have such a hard time imagining the killer doing this for any reason...leaving more incriminating evidence when you already know the girl is dead in the basement...how does this buy you time?
I suppose there is an outside chance that a disturbed person who was close to the Ramseys and had it in for them wrote the note in an elaborate deranged plot to ruin their lives....but, that is such a stretch for me.
LI_Mom
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The world is FULL of preposterous things, that's a fact.
Another thing I have a LOT of trouble with is when the Ramseys find out there daughter is missing ... they don't think to ask Burke if he heard ANYTHING... saw ANYTHING? That night OR maybe something strange at the party.
I don't know.... my first thought is NOT that I don't want to disturb my son's sleep.... I need to know IMMEDIATELY.... before the police arrive so I can tell them.
Burke was 9... nearly 10 years old.... hardly a baby who can't communicate.
Wudge
New Member
My theory on false convictions is that there are two types of people at risk: there is the wrong place/wrong time petty criminal, homeless, vagrant type who is misidentified or wrongly zeroed in on by police and there is the weird family member who either has a secret or who doesn't react 'normally'..
It is possible that the Ramsey's were odd, I think Patsy was a nut job independent of her daughter's death.
But, its a lot of 'odd' behavior that seems to run counter to logic. You think your daughter was kidnapped, yet you don't abide by the demands of the ransom note...you call up everyone and their brother immediately. You think a kidnapper has been in your house, but as you said, you don't question your son about what he might have seen, but you 'let him sleep'...
Some of their stonewalling is understandible, I can see not being questioned w/out a lawyer once you knew you were a suspect.....but demanding the questions in ADVANCE and only being questioned together? That screams out to me that they feared their stories wouldn't match....
I can also see refusing a polygraph..there are documented cases where 'innocent' people failed and guiltiy people passed..but then, just say no...or do two rounds of tests...one w/your experts and one w/FBI....
Its the sheer number of very strange things they did that when taken together along with the evidence and the FBI conclusions etc, its hard to dismiss it.
Wudge
New Member
For years, as with many of you, i have pondered this case and been on the fence at times, other times believing the Ramseys' couldnt have did this to their daughter,than reading at a dear friends very informative forum about the case
However, something that really struck me is when i listen to Patsy's 911 call, it right away reminded me of Brenda VanDams 911 call--- and Brenda ,who, we know was innocent victim -- theres a panic , a lot of "OMG , help me"..etc. same as or similar to Patsy's (sorry tried to find both 911 calls to post but couldnt come across actual link to them)-- and it made me re think her involvement in Jonbenet's murder----both mothers ,IMO sound similar in their fear, their panic and utter horror of whats going on---
Patsy, just a great actress or innocent?
So with the new DNA "touch evidence" , im not super convinced now the Rameys were involved ..but not totally convinced they didnt. Just more friggin confused then ever!:waitasec:
Once again .. Im on the fence again. .(with all due respect to my dear friend's forum and opinion :blowkiss
If not for that ransom note --i may well not have as hard a time with that to think of who did it or be as confused.. but the similarities with PR's writing and the amount of money ( JR's bonus amount --) if it werent them it had to be someone who work for John or very close knew their finances... ( wonder if thier accountant was looked into?
Great opinions here from many of you here--- its interesting reading -and you guys should be detectives yourselves!
Back to my corner now .:chicken:
No handwriting expert hired by the D.A. or from or hired by the FBI, the CBI or the BPD found Patsy's handwriting a match to the ransom note. The ransom note is exculpatory evidence, not inculpatory evidence.
2 of those experts were hired by the Ramsey's so they don't count.
The experts also said the type of pen used made analysis difficult and handwriting analysis is a pretty inexact discipline to begin with, its more akin to bite marks than DNA.
So, at best, the note is neutral in terms of being exculpatory or inculpatory in terms of the handwriting analysis as to who wrote it.
Oh, really?
"The police never bothered to ask Ubowski if he had put his entire analysis of the ransom note into his report. Either way, Ubowski was prepared to say, 'Patsy wrote the note.' The CBI saw this as another missed opportunity" (Schiller 1999a:536-537). Schiller further notes: "experts from the CBI presented their evaluations into evidence, including Chet Ubowski. He also told Pete Mang, his boss at the CBI, that his gut told him it was her handwriting" (Schiller 1999a:740).
Carol McKinley stated in the Fox News story that Ramseys sued Fox over: "Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey. Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey."
Look, I'm not an attorney, I'm just a layperson. That means I can't not see what my eyes see. IOWs, I trust my own eyes, and I would think most people would.
Wudge
New Member
As a possible writer of the ransom note, handwriting experts rated Patsy "low probability". Low probability is not neutral. It does not even support probable cause much less proof beyond a reasonable doubt. This is supported by the fact that the Grand Jury heard days worth of testimony on the ransom note and refused to charge the Ramseys.
Wudge
New Member
Chet Ubowski testified before the Grand Jury on two different days. The Grand Jury did not find anything he said to even be dispositive of the low standard of probable cause. Moreover, as best I recall, Ubowski never concluded that Patsy's wrote the note. As did other experts, he said she could not be excluded.
Here's one person, a handwriting expert, who thought she wrote it.
http://hamptonroads.com/node/240291
So, it seems the experts are divided over whether or not Patsy Ramsey wrote the note or not...
If there are some experts who say you wrote it, or probably wrote it, and some who say you probably didn't write it..then to me, that comes out as NEUTRAL.
But feel free to continue to believe that its exculpatory.
Oh?
"The police never bothered to ask Ubowski if he had put his entire analysis of the ransom note into his report. Either way, Ubowski was prepared to say, 'Patsy wrote the note.' The CBI saw this as another missed opportunity" (Schiller 1999a:536-537). Schiller further notes: "experts from the CBI presented their evaluations into evidence, including Chet Ubowski. He also told Pete Mang, his boss at the CBI, that his gut told him it was her handwriting" (Schiller 1999a:740).
Carol McKinley stated in the Fox News story that Ramseys sued Fox over: "Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey. Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey."
Look, I'm not an attorney, I'm just a layperson. That means I can't not see what my eyes see. IOWs, I trust my own eyes, and I would think most people would.
According to Michelle Czopek, the Grand Jury's decision had very little to do with what evidence they heard. Besides, the GJ met in fits and starts over the period of a year that they were operating. A week here, a week there. I'm not expert, but that seems like a crummy way to run a GJ. How are they going to retain anything?
Darlene733510
Active Member
Speaking of the ransom note - written on Patsy's legal pad, with Patsy's felt tip pen. Practice copies of it found in the wastebasket - sure sounds like PR wrote it, and changed it, putting discarded sheets in the wastebasket.
I would think that a kidnapper would have a note already written, so they could make a fast getaway. Why take the chance of getting caught by composing that long ridiculous note. Sounds more like Patsy the drama queen wrote that note, which must have taken quite a long time to write.
I would think that a kidnapper would have a note already written, so they could make a fast getaway. Why take the chance of getting caught by composing that long ridiculous note. Sounds more like Patsy the drama queen wrote that note, which must have taken quite a long time to write.
so, lets say that someday this DNA is matched up with someone
and the "matchup" is for someone that lives in china and has never been to the USA, does that mean the new DNA findings were bogus
yep, it sure does
nice try madam D.A.
insert another quarter and try again
Patsy is the killer
and the "matchup" is for someone that lives in china and has never been to the USA, does that mean the new DNA findings were bogus
yep, it sure does
nice try madam D.A.
insert another quarter and try again
Patsy is the killer
The Grand Juror who was interviewed said that they couldn't believe a parent could inflict the injuries Jonbenet suffered. That doesn't sound like a very profound or professional way of judging a case. That's what happens when you leave justice in the hands of people too stupid to get out of jury duty.
I have several statements that say he did, he just couldn't say so in court. As I'm sure you know, there's a big difference between what someone knows and what someone can "prove." Plus, from what I can gather, he did the most extensive analysis of anyone by far.
Medea, we are most fortunate that I have a copy of the book mentioned in the article you found that was printed before the lawsuit was settled. If you haven't read it, folks, take my word for it, it is a LONG list of side-by-side comparisons between ransom note letters and Patsy's letters. NO ONE could look at those comparisons and say she didn't write it. Well, almost no one.
Exactly.