The Ramseys are Cleared

[Wudge]

Here's one person, a handwriting expert, who thought she wrote it.

http://hamptonroads.com/node/240291

So, it seems the experts are divided over whether or not Patsy Ramsey wrote the note or not...

If there are some experts who say you wrote it, or probably wrote it, and some who say you probably didn't write it..then to me, that comes out as NEUTRAL.

But feel free to continue to believe that its exculpatory.

My recollection is that Judge Carnes ruled that Wong was not a handwriting expert.

 

[robotdog]

common sense must be taken into consideration

the "killer" AKA "intruder" as some would believe had intimate knowledge of the basement of the house and sneak around in darkness, finding pens and paper seemingly in stealth mode while carrying around a possibly yelling and crying child into the death chamber basement area without ever a regard for
a parent being woken up..

one word --------- HOGWASH


intruder ?? -------nawwwwwwwwwwwww

 

[BBB167893]

Carnes? She knew what the Ramseys told her.

From what I've heard, Wong has the same level or experience as Ubowski. Can't remember where, just now.

 

[lilywhite]

Look, I'm not an attorney, I'm just a layperson. That means I can't not see what my eyes see. IOWs, I trust my own eyes, and I would think most people would.

I've always thought it looked like Patsy's handwriting, but like you I'm only a layperson. I do trust the evidence of my own eyes, though, whether admissible in a court of law or not.

 

[Medea]

My recollection is that Judge Carnes ruled that Wong was not a handwriting expert.

Wong is forensic document examiner and so is the person she accused of lifting her work. That makes three so far who thought Patsy Ramsey wrote the note that I can find.

 

[BBB167893]

Well, lilywhite, what I mean is a jury is comprised of laypeople like you and me. That's my whole point: what would a jury made up of Mr and Mrs America believe? "Experts" or their own eyes?

 

[Wudge]

Oh?

"The police never bothered to ask Ubowski if he had put his entire analysis of the ransom note into his report. Either way, Ubowski was prepared to say, 'Patsy wrote the note.' The CBI saw this as another missed opportunity" (Schiller 1999a:536-537). Schiller further notes: "experts from the CBI presented their evaluations into evidence, including Chet Ubowski. He also told Pete Mang, his boss at the CBI, that his gut told him it was her handwriting" (Schiller 1999a:740).

Carol McKinley stated in the Fox News story that Ramseys sued Fox over: "Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey. Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey."

Look, I'm not an attorney, I'm just a layperson. That means I can't not see what my eyes see. IOWs, I trust my own eyes, and I would think most people would.



According to Michelle Czopek, the Grand Jury's decision had very little to do with what evidence they heard. Besides, the GJ met in fits and starts over the period of a year that they were operating. A week here, a week there. I'm not expert, but that seems like a crummy way to run a GJ. How are they going to retain anything?

As for the Grand Jury, I think that Grand Jury was more investigative than 99% of all others. Nevertheless, Kane had more than a great opportunity. After a year, he still could not make his case.

My assessment has been that though he was said to be the best Denver had, he is a TTT attorney. L. Lin Wood publically emabarrased Kane on Larry King's show. Why he wanted to go on there has always been beyond me.

 

[reefshadow]

Has Mary Lacy tested for unidentified male touch dna in the evidence collected in this 2nd Boulder Case and compared it to the unidentified dna in JBR's case?

If one was to be thorough, it seems one would have indeed done this?

I haven't heard any reports of this having been done? Has anyone else?

Had these tests been done and a match was found, no doubt it would have been highly publicized.

Oh wait a minute, I think I understand why tests here were either never done or never reported...

Reports which 'cleared' this intruder would not 'help the R's and support their intruder theory', would it? Also, it would remind people of that nasty little ML/John Mark Karr fiasco a couple of years back...

Yet, ML has pubically 'cleared the R's'...Go Figure... :waitasec:

The only information on this subject that I could obtain aside from the basic details is that the police didn't take the attack very seriously and did little investigation at the time.

It is incredible to me that this wasn't followed up on though.

 

[Wudge]

Wong is forensic document examiner and so is the person she accused of lifting her work. That makes three so far who thought Patsy Ramsey wrote the note that I can find.

As I said, my recollection is that Federal Judge Judith Carnes refused to let Wong testify as a handwriting expert, citing a significant lack of pedigree.

 

[DuchessJules22]

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but what if the murderer was a friend of John Andrew's or his sister (I can't remember her name) that stayed at the house regularly? Whoever did it wasn't afraid of being caught. If they had been, all they would've had to say was "Oh, I asked John Andrew (or his sister) if I could crash here and they said it was okay."

Just a thought...

 

[Ames]

Speaking of the ransom note - written on Patsy's legal pad, with Patsy's felt tip pen. Practice copies of it found in the wastebasket - sure sounds like PR wrote it, and changed it, putting discarded sheets in the wastebasket.

I would think that a kidnapper would have a note already written, so they could make a fast getaway. Why take the chance of getting caught by composing that long ridiculous note. Sounds more like Patsy the drama queen wrote that note, which must have taken quite a long time to write.

You are 100 percent correct about that RN. A REAL intruder would have brought his own....already written out. They wouldn't have waited until they got to the house, find paper and a pen...and then write it, especially not knowing where the Ramsey's were, or what time they would be home, since it was, supposedly, written while the Ramseys were at the White's party. Experts (On Nancy Grace) have even said that the ransom note was written without the fear of being caught.

 

[BBB167893]

Well, Wudge, number one, we don't know if he made his case or not. Don't forget, it was Alex Hunter who had the final say, and to hear Henry Lee tell it, Hunter was advised NOT to go forward, indictment or not. So we don't know what the GJ may or may not have concluded. Accounts are conflicting, to say the least.

But even if you're right, it's not MY FAULT if the DA couldn't make a circumstantial case. That's what 30 years of plea-bargaining will do, I guess.

My assessment has been that though he was said to be the best Denver had, he is a TTT attorney.

You just lost me. Never heard of a TTT attorney.

L. Lin Wood publically emabarrased Kane on Larry King's show. Why he wanted to go on there has always been beyond me.

You must have been watching a different program than I was! Because that's NOT how I remember how it went! The way I remember how it went was Wood was doing like he always does: trying to bait his target and Kane remained professional and did not go for it.

Moreover, it'll take a LOT more than Lin Wood's say-so to convince me that Kane was "overzealous." I mean, if we're at the point where someone like Kane, who was called to do a job, is overzealous, then may God help us all!

 

[Medea]

As I said, my recollection is that Federal Judge Judith Carnes refused to let Wong testify as a handwriting expert, citing a significant lack of pedigree.

How convenient.

From what I've seen she appears to have gotten a number of her facts wrong including that the 'animal hairs' couldn't be matched to anything in the house when the Boulder PD wanted a search warrent to get Patsy's beaver hair boots and they never got it....as well as appearing to either be completely unaware or to ignore the fiber evidence found on Jonbenet and the ligature items that was consistent with clothing worn by the Ramsey's....

There are crazy judges on the bench, and from what I have seen of her ruling she either did not know the full extent of evidence against the Ramseys or she started with the end in mind...they were innocent...and crafted her ruling to fit it.

Kind of a Mike Nifong in reverse.

 

[BBB167893]

How convenient.

From what I've seen she appears to have gotten a number of her facts wrong including that the 'animal hairs' couldn't be matched to anything in the house when the Boulder PD wanted a search warrent to get Patsy's beaver hair boots and they never got it....as well as appearing to either be completely unaware or to ignore the fiber evidence found on Jonbenet and the ligature items that was consistent with clothing worn by the Ramsey's....

There are crazy judges on the bench, and from what I have seen of her ruling she either did not know the full extent of evidence against the Ramseys or she started with the end in mind...they were innocent...and crafted her ruling to fit it.

Kind of a Mike Nifong in reverse.

That's pretty much how it went. She saw NONE of the police evidence file.

 

[Ames]

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but what if the murderer was a friend of John Andrew's or his sister (I can't remember her name) that stayed at the house regularly? Whoever did it wasn't afraid of being caught. If they had been, all they would've had to say was "Oh, I asked John Andrew (or his sister) if I could crash here and they said it was okay."

Just a thought...

Well, if that was the case, John and Patsy would have known if the friend was staying there or not, and they would have told police. And so....you are saying if the "friend" was caught....what? killing the Ramsey's daughter?....they would just say..."Oh, I asked John Andrew if I could crash here, and he said it was okay". So...then....the Ramsey's say..."well, if John Andrew invited you...then its okay....go back to killing our daughter"?? You are more right than you know when you say that whoever did it wasn't afraid of being caught, because the person that did it LIVED inside the home.

 

[Wudge]

Well, Wudge, number one, we don't know if he made his case or not. Don't forget, it was Alex Hunter who had the final say, and to hear Henry Lee tell it, Hunter was advised NOT to go forward, indictment or not. So we don't know what the GJ may or may not have concluded. Accounts are conflicting, to say the least.

But even if you're right, it's not MY FAULT if the DA couldn't make a circumstantial case. That's what 30 years of plea-bargaining will do, I guess.



You just lost me. Never heard of a TTT attorney.



You must have been watching a different program than I was! Because that's NOT how I remember how it went! The way I remember how it went was Wood was doing like he always does: trying to bait his target and Kane remained professional and did not go for it.

Moreover, it'll take a LOT more than Lin Wood's say-so to convince me that Kane was "overzealous." I mean, if we're at the point where someone like Kane, who was called to do a job, is overzealous, then may God help us all!

Kane told Larry King he was not there to discuss the evidence. (DUH) And it went downhill from there.

As for "TTT", it's a well understood acroynym for third-tier toliet.

Kane wanted the Ramseys indicted. He failed. Thus, after a year in front of the Grand Jury, he failed to make his case.

 

[Medea]

That's pretty much how it went. She saw NONE of the police evidence file.

Yeah, it seems to me this was a reflection of Wolf's lawyer not doing a very thorough job..nevermind that the judge was dismissing a claim of defamation that Wolf brought and so the fact that the bulk of the opinion is about why the Ramsey's are 'innocent' is in itself, a bit off...since it seems to me that Wolf could have been defamed whether the Ramsey's were guilty or innocent and the judge's apparent mindset that Wolf had to prove the Ramsey's were guilty in order to win a defamation suit was kind of odd....

But I am not really that familiar with the lawsuit...but I did see several clear cut mistakes of fact in the judge's ruling....

 

[coloradokares]

As for the Grand Jury, I think that Grand Jury was more investigative than 99% of all others. Nevertheless, Kane had more than a great opportunity. After a year, he still could not make his case.

My assessment has been that though he was said to be the best Denver had, he is a TTT attorney. L. Lin Wood publically emabarrased Kane on Larry King's show. Why he wanted to go on there has always been beyond me.

Who says he was the Best Denver had to offer for one thing and for another it is only a matter of opinion that Kane left that area defeated I have always belived he knew what had to be saved for trial

 

[lilywhite]

Well, lilywhite, what I mean is a jury is comprised of laypeople like you and me. That's my whole point: what would a jury made up of Mr and Mrs America believe? "Experts" or their own eyes?

Depends on the people, I think. I would be likely to let an "expert" opinion carry a lot of weight in making my own decision, but would probably not accept it blindly; I trust my own eyes and judgment. I expect there would be other people who would believe the expert completely, some who would only trust their own eyes, and most on some continuum between those two points.

It

 

[Medea]

This case was the perfect storm of political infighting meets incompetance. The police and the DA disagreed over how to proceed on the investigation and whether or not the Ramsey's should be the prime suspects. A HUGE number of people either in the DAs office or BPD resigned in a snit because their pet theory wasn't considered the 'right' theory. Once everybody started infighting then various pieces of evidence were stressed or not, depending on who was telling the story. This one got help, this one got no help...this evidence was tested, this evidence wasn't, roadblocks and misinformation from all sides, everyone bolstering their own viewpoint.

Throw in Hal Haddon and Lin Wood, two of the top lawyers in the country with very, very strong track records of winning, and deep pockets....and Haddon's massive political influence in Colorado...

Game over.

This case was probably doomed within the first 7 days.