The Red Turtleneck

[Steely]

Where does it say that JonBenet's red turtleneck was soiled? How could you soil a shirt? I know a child can wet the bed and her shirt...but soil it?

JMO...I do not think it is possible to wear a turtleneck under another shirt without the collar showing. It is almost impossible to keep the collar down.

If the story is true that JonBenet's red turtleneck was wet, than that explains alot of things.

Patsy awakens JonBenet to use the toilet. JonBenet is wearing the red turtleneck AND the pants found in her bathroom. Patsy places an uncooperating JonBenet on the toilet. She discovers JonBenet is wearing soiled panties. She then decides JonBenet needs some serious cleaning up before she puts her on the plane.

Patsy tells JonBenet to get undressed. She screams bloody murder when Patsy suggests she get in the tub for a quick bath. A scuffle ensues and that is when Patsy hits JonBenet over the head with the flashlight.

Listen Carefully! Soiled pants on the floor...balled-up red turtleneck on the counter suggests to me that a possible bath was going to take place.

But why would she have the flashlight? Why would PR need a flashlight to check on JB during the night? That is why I think the flashlight was used in the coverup and staging but not in the murder. I think the turtleneck was supposed to be used for photos...like PR planned. Photos of her and JB in matching outfits which she didn't get before the party so PR wanted them after the party. What was on that red turtleneck? Was it rinsed out so we don't know? Could it be pineapple or milk or cream from a snack when they got home?

 

[Steely]

Solace,
Someone was savvy enough to remove their fingerprints from both the batteries and the outside of the flashlight, as well as wiping JonBenet down, to remove any forensic evidence, then wrap her in blankets and dump her in a remote location, well away from the probable place of death.


.

I think JB's fatal head injury happened in PR's bathroom. I think she was placed as far from there as possible. When JR was told to check the house from top to bottom, he checked the bottom first...it was the furthest place from the actual site of her head injury.

from Page 21 of "Death of Innocence"
"I decide we should start at the basement and work our way to the top floor. "It is highly unlikely that we will find anything amiss in our bedroom on the third floor, and we will need some kind of a system to make sure we don't miss anything. A bottom-to-top search will do that. Fleet doesn't mention to me that he had been down to the basement earlier that morning."

What about PR's bathroom? What evidence was collected from there? Where did PR do JB's hair...was it in PR's bathroom?

 

[Steely]

What kind of a role though? If she had changed her into it when they got home and Jon Benet soiled it, it would have shown that. But if she had wanted to change her into it and JonBenet balked, it could have escalated into an argument where the shirt was thrown into a ball into the sink. Maybe she put it on her and JonBenet was angry and wanted it off and an argument ensued. Hence the strangling theory where the knuckles are imbedded into JonBenet's neck and then the argument escalates. Is this possible to you UK?

Another theory, ugh!

REMEMBER THOUGH THAT Patsy says she was wearing the red turtleneck that evening. Sooooo, maybe she did change her into it and an argument ensued and she remembered her wearing the turtleneck. What is it? We usually remember the last thing we do as opposed to what we want it to be.

She does cry when she sees a picture of it when being interviewed.

I'm with you... totally suspicious about the red turtleneck!!!!!What do we know about the red turtleneck? PR wanted her to wear it to the White's Christmas Day party. Why? So she would match PR. Why did PR care about matching clothes? She liked to have her picture taken with her kids with all of them in matching clothes. Did PR get pictures of herself and her kids that last Christmas together? NO. Why? 1) they weren't taken...too busy or whatever 2)taken but destroyed because showed evidence of murder weapon or R's lying 3)PR wanted to take pictures and had JB put the turtleneck on but she soiled it with pineapple juice or whatever or JB refused to put it on and PR was already ticked JB argued about her outfit on the 23rd (POWER STRUGGLE) ... so pictures were never taken because PR went into a rage causing JB's injuries and accidental/unintentional homicide...
Or...??????? What other scenarios am I missing?

 

[Steely]

seems like PR had to change the Turtleneck story because the intruder wouldnt have redressed her in her bedroom. another big blunder from her. when she grabbed the clothes from earlier she didnt have the undies because they were soiled. later in the wc when she was staging she realized JB didnt have undies on and decided to unwrap the Bloomies to cover her up, just like the blanket.
Does anyone think the PR couldnt carry JB down the stairs and into the basement by herself? was there enough light to see even though all lights in the house were turned off, even the outdoor porch lights that were usually on?

I agree with the part about the turtleneck that JB was probably redressed in the turtleneck but I have a very hard time believing a Miss America wannabee would dress her in those huge bloomies. I think that was JR. Would a good southern woman who wouldn't be caught (dead) in white shoes after labor day dress her in those bloomies? Possibly...to look like IDI but then you'd think the rest of them would be left in the house! Why would IDI take the rest of the package of bloomies? I think the parents used the pullups on JB because when her head was injured in PR's bathroom she started leaking urine and they needed to contain that while moving her all those steps down to the basement. Possibly stopping in the kitchen to evaluate her condition (pillow found there and lights seen there).

 

[Ames]

I'm with you... totally suspicious about the red turtleneck!!!!!What do we know about the red turtleneck? PR wanted her to wear it to the White's Christmas Day party. Why? So she would match PR. Why did PR care about matching clothes? She liked to have her picture taken with her kids with all of them in matching clothes. Did PR get pictures of herself and her kids that last Christmas together? NO. Why? 1) they weren't taken...too busy or whatever 2)taken but destroyed because showed evidence of murder weapon or R's lying 3)PR wanted to take pictures and had JB put the turtleneck on but she soiled it with pineapple juice or whatever or JB refused to put it on and PR was already ticked JB argued about her outfit on the 23rd (POWER STRUGGLE) ... so pictures were never taken because PR went into a rage causing JB's injuries and accidental/unintentional homicide...
Or...??????? What other scenarios am I missing?

Pictures were taken at the White's Christmas party...ST has seen them. But, they haven't been released to the public. I have seen only two pictures of JB taken on Christmas morning....I KNOW there has to be more somewhere...unless as you say...they were destroyed.

 

[Steely]

from the Patsy Ramsey interrogation (excerpts) interview June 1998, as transcribed by ACR:
PR: (looking through photo album) "Looks like the little red turtleneck, little cotton red turtleneck that I wanted her to wear to the White's and she didn't want to wear."

Det. Tom Haney: "How did it end up there?"

PR: (looking through photo album): "Well," (Patsy then very quietly begins to cry)

Det. Tom Haney: "It's about 10:25; you want to take a break?"

PR: (Patsy crying..muffled) "Sorry." (Muffled)

Interrogation tape appears to break here and a new conversation starts.

We know that initially, Patsy told the officers that JB went to bed in the red turtleneck; she later changed that story to say that she was put to bed in the white star Gap shirt. We don't know what the pictures show from the White's Christmas party as they have never been publicly released (although someone posted one time that ST stated in a chat that the pictures showed the white Gap shirt). The red turtleneck was found balled up on the bathroom counter, but I'm not sure who actually said it was wet. Patsy says that she removed JB's black velvet jeans and put on the white longjohns that she herself got out of a drawer for her. All the while JB is said to be sleeping.

I am fascinated with the red turtleneck. I don't think that Patsy got it wrong when she initially reported that JB went to bed wearing that. And here we have Patsy getting upset when she sees the red turtleneck....so upset that Det. Haney obviously feels empathy and takes a break. Why didn't he press her on this? I feel that an opportunity was missed.

I think PR started crying because the red turtleneck was a trigger for the loss of her daughter. I think that reaction was based on factual events. I think the red turtleneck might have a lot to do with JB's death. JB argued with her mom about her outfit on the 23rd. She did again on the 25th. I think PR insisted JB did put that turtleneck on but she didn't go to bed with it. I think that is why PR originally said she was wearing it either because JB did put it on that night or she thought it would explain red fibers being found on JB. I think maybe JB spilled pineapple juice or milk on it and PR was really ticked because she wanted photos of herself and JB in red for Christmas (that night and on the trip to see JR's kids...PR wanted to PACK that turtleneck for the trip) and when JB acted up when PR tried to fix her hair...she grabbed what was available...the curling iron and held it to her...burning her and maybe strangled her with the cord and JB was shoved or fell into the tub or toilet. The marks on her body from the curling iron would be proof of child abuse. Just a theory.

 

[MurriFlower]

I think PR started crying because the red turtleneck was a trigger for the loss of her daughter. I think that reaction was based on factual events. The red turtleneck did have a lot to do with JB's death. JB argued with her mom about her outfit on the 23rd. She did again on the 25th. I think PR insisted JB did put that turtleneck on but she didn't go to bed with it. I think that is why PR originally said she was wearing it either because she remember seeing her in it or she thought it would explain red fibers being found on JB. I think maybe JB spilled pineapple juice or milk on it and PR was really ticked because she wanted photos of herself and JB in red for Christmas (that night and on the trip to see JR's kids...PR wanted to PACK that turtleneck for the trip) and when JB acted up when PR tried to fix her hair...she grabbed what was available...the curling iron and held it to her...burning her and maybe strangled her with the cord and JB was shoved or fell into the tub or toilet. The marks on her body from the curling iron would be proof of child abuse. Just a theory.

Yes, and a damned good one !!

 

[Steely]

Yes, and a damned good one !!

Thank you.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I cannot see Patsy being able to burn JonBenet with a curling iron. Yes, I am a staunch RDI, but I believe that whatever made these marks on her would have been a "side effect" from one of her other injuries. Any woman who has ever been accidentally burned with a curling iron knows how excruciating the pain is. I know that there are plenty of mothers who could do this and never blink an eye but I just cant see this in this case. If I remember correctly, there was one mark on her neck and two more on her back, do you think she could have intentionally burned her three times? If JB were still conscience, her screams would have certainly been heard and more than once. I could believe this if there had only been one burn on her neck but not three, with two of then on her back. Also, unless the coroner had a hidden agenda, I don't understand why he didn't call them burns instead of abrasions. I know it's been debated time and again, but I still lean toward these marks coming from a ring on the finger of whoever did the staging or something she was pressed against while being strangled.

 

[Steely]

I cannot see Patsy being able to burn JonBenet with a curling iron. Yes, I am a staunch RDI, but I believe that whatever made these marks on her would have been a "side effect" from one of her other injuries. Any woman who has ever been accidentally burned with a curling iron knows how excruciating the pain is. I know that there are plenty of mothers who could do this and never blink an eye but I just cant see this in this case. If I remember correctly, there was one mark on her neck and two more on her back, do you think she could have intentionally burned her three times? If JB were still conscience, her screams would have certainly been heard and more than once. I could believe this if there had only been one burn on her neck but not three, with two of then on her back. Also, unless the coroner had a hidden agenda, I don't understand why he didn't call them burns instead of abrasions. I know it's been debated time and again, but I still lean toward these marks coming from a ring on the finger of whoever did the staging or something she was pressed against while being strangled.

I'm not a staunch RDI but this is one of my RDI theories. Autopsies are subjective and rely on verbal descriptions. Some medical professionals suspect a stun gun which effectively burns the skin. If a stun gun is possible, why not a safety-tip free curling iron? If the ME had saved tissue samples from the areas that look like "unknown abrasions" they could have been tested to differentiate abrasions from electrical burns or other skin "lesions."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18472235

Because the R's did NOT want the "stun gun" marks tested even though it might have helped exonerate them...I'm suspicious the R's knew those marks if identified might actually help convict them. If the ME had seen a safety-tip free curling iron and professional models of curling irons in various sizes, perhaps he would have considered the "abrasions" might be contact burns and instead have called them "lesions." You don't look for what you don't know, right? Perhaps if LE knew about these type of curling irons they would have considered my theory themselves. I didn't see any curling irons on the evidence list although the beloved Sis probably packed it/them so PR could get ready for the funeral... that is if it wasn't disposed of with the other missing items that disappeared from the house.

Don't think PR would burn JB's beautiful face? Read a bit about physical child abuse and you might change your mind. Someone in a rage isn't thinking about consequences, are they? Professional curling irons can get searingly hot and a six year old child's skin is very soft and would almost instantly burn. Burns are very common in physical child abuse and the perpetrator often uses what is at hand. As far as screams, if it was PR (could it have been BR?) she could have held her left hand over her mouth or been choking her with the cord so she couldn't scream. BR and JR, if working on a toy on the first floor, might not have heard a thing if PR was with JB in PR's bathroom.

If the neck mark IS a burn then PR could have held JB's right arm down with her right elbow while PR held her left hand over JB's mouth and JB might have tried to get the curling iron off her neck and burned her left hand ("heart" mark.) It would have been so hot JB would probably immediately stop trying to grab the iron. This would have happened so fast, PR could have been shocked at how bad the burns were in so little time. As Jb twisted her body to try to get away... the iron could have hit her in the back and as she lunged or was shoved...JB could have gotten the blow on the head from either the tub or the toilet. I wonder if PR sat on the toilet with JB in front of her to curl her hair... anyone know any more info on where PR did JB's hair?
I don't WANT to think PR was capable of this but from history we know a lot of parents do things to their children in fits of anger that even they themselves can not believe they did even in a fit of rage. "Crimes of passion" were once deemed "temporary insanity." Also, history tells us some parents are capable of unspeakable pre-meditated cruelty and abuse of their own children. I can not rule out a curling iron. I wish I could. I'd like to know if LE ever considered the idea.

 

[joeskidbeck]

You are right, Steely. In light of the other injuries inflicted on this poor child's body and the coroner's lack of information regarding them, we certainly can't say with certainty that she wasn't burned with a curling iron. This is such a horror for me that I don't want to believe it. It's hard to put yourself in that situation when you've never "been there".

 

[Steely]

You are right, Steely. In light of the other injuries inflicted on this poor child's body and the coroner's lack of information regarding them, we certainly can't say with certainty that she wasn't burned with a curling iron. This is such a horror for me that I don't want to believe it. It's hard to put yourself in that situation when you've never "been there".

I know... it is just horrific. I never would have even thought of a curling iron except when I was researching physical child abuse, I discovered up to 10 percent of physical abuse injuries in the US are burns and if the burns are contact "branding" type burns which can leave an outline of the shape... the abuser usually just grabs whatever is at hand. So I tried to imagine what PR might have nearby if she really lost it with JB.

 

[BOESP]

I am wondering about why the red turtleneck sweater ended up wet and balled up on the bathroom counter.

Before going to the Whites party PR wanted JB to wear the red turtleneck. This means it would be ready to wear, i.e. NOT wet.

JB ended up wearing the white sweater with the star on it. Went to bed with it and then was found in it.

PR "mispoke" once in fornt of 3 police officers stating that JB went to bed wearing the red turtleneck. Maybe this was what actually happened?

How did the red turtleneck end up wet if it was just discarded before the Whites party and not used afterwards?

Edit: Maybe the red turtleneck never was wet at all.

Bumping this entire thread due to interest and comments on another thread today.

 

[k-mac]

there was one mark on her neck and two more on her back, do you think she could have intentionally burned her three times?

what if it wasn't to hurt her but to 'revive' her? desperately trying to bring consciousness ?
have no idea what made those marks but i think it was part of ressusitation attempts quite possibly.

 

[kanzz]

what if it wasn't to hurt her but to 'revive' her? desperately trying to bring consciousness ?
have no idea what made those marks but i think it was part of ressusitation attempts quite possibly.

They were abrasions, as per the AR, not burns. This, along with the photos, rules out a curling iron (as was referenced in the prior post). I can't see how these wounds would indicate a resuscitation attempt, especially something as erratic as one mark on the jawline and something else on the back. If they wanted to resus, back then they would have started mouth-to-mouth and called 911.

 

[kanzz]

Bumping this entire thread due to interest and comments on another thread today.

Thanks, BOESP. There is much confusion about the red turtleneck, but I just wanted to make one comment. From what I understand, it was balled up on JB's bathroom counter, but there is no evidence to support that it was wet. That was something ST had stated but later confessed that he did not know.

From Thomas Depo #13
Q. Did anybody tell you that they found the red turtleneck and that it was wet?
A. No, this is what I am surmising in the hypothesis.
Q. Was the red turtleneck taken into evidence?
A. I certainly believe it was.
Q. Did it have any type of urine stain on it?
A. Not that I'm aware of. I never have looked at it personally.
Q. Where did you get the statement that it got wet; did you just manufacture that out of whole cloth?
A. No, I'm suggesting that that was a reasonable explanation for the final resting place of this red turtleneck of which she may have indeed worn home.
Q. But you had no evidence to support that statement about the turtleneck being wet, true?
A. No, I don't know that it was urine stained.
Q. Or wet?
A. Or wet.
​

 

[k-mac]

They were abrasions, as per the AR, not burns. This, along with the photos, rules out a curling iron (as was referenced in the prior post). I can't see how these wounds would indicate a resuscitation attempt, especially something as erratic as one mark on the jawline and something else on the back. If they wanted to resus, back then they would have started mouth-to-mouth and called 911.

well the problem with the "abrasions" to me is there is really no conclusive confirmation as to what they are. because the ME chose that terminology without specifics no one actually knows for sure how to interpret it.
i dont know kanzz bout that. we know they panicked and created at least one unhinged scenario. god only knows what they tried in their hours of hell. we know she was breathing so no need for mouth to mouth they were trying to make her wakeup. electricuting her wouldnt be out of the realm of possibility.
hence why BPD wanted to exhume her. im not ruling anything out. except the stun gun!

 

[kanzz]

well the problem with the "abrasions" to me is there is really no conclusive confirmation as to what they are. because the ME chose that terminology without specifics no one actually knows for sure how to interpret it.
i dont know kanzz bout that. we know they panicked and created at least one unhinged scenario. god only knows what they tried in their hours of hell. we know she was breathing so no need for mouth to mouth they were trying to make her wakeup. electricuting her wouldnt be out of the realm of possibility.
hence why BPD wanted to exhume her. im not ruling anything out. except the stun gun!

BBM

Electrocuting?!? How? And why would they have done so once on the jaw line and twice on the back? Oh my. I just don't understand.

As to "why the ME chose that terminology without specifics" - that would be because it is a definitive term for the wounds he saw. "Abrasion" is medical terminology without the need for any further descriptors.

abrasion
1. the wearing away of a substance or structure, such as the skin or teeth, through some unusual or abnormal process.
2. a wound caused by rubbing or scraping the skin or a mucous membrane.

 

[k-mac]

kanzz!
dont get your nickers in twist. "oh my....i just dont understand?"
i clearly stated i dont know....im not ruling anything out.
its really not that incomprehensible...please.

would be interesting to know what appliances etc were noted in the house. probably none.

just touched her with something warm to see if they could wake her.
like ie curling wand end. not impossible.
probably cold water in the shower too. just throwing it out there.

 

[PositiveLight]

possibly,but Dr. Spitz says she was manually strangled with a shirt collar,and the 2 abrasions on the side are from knuckles.So I'm thinking,wouldn't they have changed this shirt,since the collar would be stretched and twisted,and the ligature was to mask the manual strangulation?


I recall reading that,but I wonder if that's just a story ? I can't see JR admitting he was sexually abusing JB. I think he would say that PR killed her on purpose b/f he would say something like that (?).

[/color] I need to read that one !

Just catching upon this thread.
This may well have been answered already so I'm sorry in advance!
I just don't want to loose my train of thought lol
So here it goes.
Okay if she wore the red turtle neck under the white shirt, there should be red fibers on the inside of the shirt to prove that once and for all.
Next- I could definitely see the turtleneck being something used to strangle her and leave some of the marks on her neck.
My theory is always changing and morphing as I come across new ideas or evidence.
I know that the marks around her neck that have been now said to be petechiae from the strangulation.
But I want to play with this idea for a moment.
I wonder if she was in fact put in the red turtleneck to sleep in for the trip in the morning.
She wasn't asleep.
She was up and playing with Burke and ate some pineapple.
They got into a fight at some point and he twisted the red turtleneck to choke her and make her stop screaming (maybe from an injury to the vaginal area)
Something made Burke madder and he hit her over the head rendering her unconscious. Burke ran to his room to hide from what he done leaving her half naked.
Parents found her and saw the marks on her neck and knew they had to get rid of that evidence. Patsy wet it and balled it up by the sink to possibly cover the stretching of the neck of the turtleneck.
She threw back on her shirt she wore to the party and started staging thinking she was strangled only and cleaned up the blood in the vaginal area and put on the big panties and boy's long johns. Not aware of the head wound.
John took her to the wine cellar while Patsy wrote the long book.
John needed to cover the turtleneck marks so he used something nearby on the ground. Didn't realize she wasn't dead and probably only found out AFTER the autopsy that HE actually killed her. They staged it to look like a crazy pedophile foreign faction did it....
Just playing around with theories trying to put the pieces together. JMOO