The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #4

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What if a private company undertook the dig with permission of owners? And called LE as soon as (if) they see something of interest?
 
Hurricane said:
I would suggest that you contact Dan Patterson's office and see if he intends to let a dig proceed without a proper warrant.
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I don't know who Dan Patterson is, but: the garage is on private property and the owners of that property can order a core sample, dig, tear down the garage or paint it pink if zoning laws are not affected and proper permits are obtained.

My understanding from a post on one of the previous pages is that the people at the medical center are deferring to law enforcement. This makes sense because if something was found during the coring, it would become a law enforcement issues.

However, with the permission of the property owners, LE should need no warrant to do a core sample or dig. If the property owner won't give permission without a warrant, then the warrant is needed. So any way you slice it, it is up to LE to decide to put this possibility to rest.
 
http://streeterfamilyblogg.blogspot.com/p/person-of-interest.html

Here is an interesting moment from an article about Robert Cox, as posted on Bartt's blog.

Sharon Zellers was 19, a shy young woman fresh out of high school in Orlando, thrilled with her first full-time job as clerk at the Frontierland Trading Post. She left work that night at 10, presumably headed for home. "She was a very quiet and cautious person,"recalled her brother Steve, 36. "When she didn't make it home, we started to panic.' Her dad had taught her the route to and from Disney World, taking her along a stretch of West Colonial Drive. She never strayed, her brother said. Four days after she vanished, Sharon Zellers' car was found in an orange grove, eight miles from her route home.

Two days after that, her body was found nearby, stuffed into a manhole at a sewage-pumping station. Investigators would later discover Cox had been vacationing with his parents, staying at a Days Inn 340 feet from that manhole. The coroner ruled she had been beaten on the head 14 times with a blunt object.

The night Zellers vanished, Cox, then 19 and stationed at Hunter Army Base in Savannah, Ga., stumbled into his motel room, bleeding profusely, about to pass out. He was missing a quarter-inch of his tongue. He later told police he had accidentally bitten it off when "a big black man" hit him during a fight outside a skating rink. That would be next to an all-night Albertson's, a grocery store where Zellers frequently bought cigarettes on her way home.
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It isn't hard to imagine Suzie stopping for cigarettes on the way home, Cox seeing her there, following her home, and then coming back with a buddy and a van. Or just a van.
 
pittsburghgirl said:
I don't know who Dan Patterson is, but: the garage is on private property and the owners of that property can order a core sample, dig, tear down the garage or paint it pink if zoning laws are not affected and proper permits are obtained.

My understanding from a post on one of the previous pages is that the people at the medical center are deferring to law enforcement. This makes sense because if something was found during the coring, it would become a law enforcement issues.
Click to expand...

However, with the permission of the property owners, LE should need no warrant to do a core sample or dig. If the property owner won't give permission without a warrant, then the warrant is needed. So any way you slice it, it is up to LE to decide to put this possibility to rest.
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Believe what you will, but LE will not proceed without a warrant and they don’t feel that they have the evidence to get one.

As I understand it only one spot on the ground floor in that large garage was scanned. Kathee, correct me if I am wrong on that. If the entire ground floor had been scanned and only that one spot produced any anomalies then I might feel a little bit differently. But what if the entire ground floor was scanned and produced maybe 4-5-6 different spots or more that showed anomalies; would you feel any differently then? The more spots that produce anomalies the more it would tend to discredit the theory that the 3MW are buried under the ramp, and support the idea that it is likely just tree roots. And we simply don't know how many more anomalies that we might find there by scanning the entire ground floor.
 
Hurricane said:
Believe what you will, but LE will not proceed without a warrant and they don’t feel that they have the evidence to get one.

As I understand it only one spot on the ground floor in that large garage was scanned. Kathee, correct me if I am wrong on that. If the entire ground floor had been scanned and only that one spot produced any anomalies then I might feel a little bit differently. But what if the entire ground floor was scanned and produced maybe 4-5-6 different spots or more that showed anomalies; would you feel any differently then? The more spots that produce anomalies the more it would tend to discredit the theory that the 3MW are buried under the ramp, and support the idea that it is likely just tree roots. And we simply don't know how many more anomalies that we might find there by scanning the entire ground floor.
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It's not a matter of belief; what I stated is fact. LE dug up other areas (with or without a warrant) that produced no results. Every day in this country ponds are drained and rivers are dredged and wells are searched and areas are dug up because of the possibility of a body. According to the Disappeared episode, there have been many tips, going way back, about the Cox garage. So if the medical center people are OK with it, find a judge to sign a warrant and get the coring done.
 
Missouri Mule said:
On the night of her graduation? This suggests he was prowling the area for someone vulnerable.
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My guess is that Cox was often prowling, stalking, trolling for victims of one kind or another in the right situation. All he would have needed to be doing is driving past the right after the bars closed if Suzie stopped for cigarettes or a snack. All of the smokers I know are very careful not to run out, and she may have wanted enough to get to the water park the next day. How many cigarettes were in her purse when it was found? These are the things that drive me crazy...
 
pittsburghgirl said:
My guess is that Cox was often prowling, stalking, trolling for victims of one kind or another in the right situation. All he would have needed to be doing is driving past the right after the bars closed if Suzie stopped for cigarettes or a snack. All of the smokers I know are very careful not to run out, and she may have wanted enough to get to the water park the next day. How many cigarettes were in her purse when it was found? These are the things that drive me crazy...
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You know, I never thought about something like that but thinking back nearly 40 years when I smoked that would certainly be true. She would not want to run out of cigarettes although I suppose she might have had a carton of cigarettes at the home especially if she and Sherrill smoked the same brand.

Thinking back to then, there were three roads going east off "FF", Highway "M", Battlefield and Sunshine. Of the three, the one I would have used would have been Battlefield. It was on that road that most places would have been open to have sold those cigarettes. "M" would not likely have been used and Sunshine is not as likely either. I believe that two large grocery stores were on Battlefield not too far from turning off FF going east. I would think that would be the best place to get cigarettes. I wonder if the police ever thought to inquire of the night crews if she was seen coming in there. If they had, it is altogether possible that they would also have seen a possible stalker or prowler in the vicinity. Wouldn't it have been something if one of the clerks could have fingered a Cox or a Carnahan at the same time she came there? This is the longest of long shots but if she had a fresh pack of cigarettes and there were no cartons of the same brand in the home she almost certainly purchased the cigarettes while going home. That would have been a very good place to have made inquiries; if nothing else but to better set the time line.
 
Missouri Mule said:
You know, I never thought about something like that but thinking back nearly 40 years when I smoked that would certainly be true. She would not want to run out of cigarettes although I suppose she might have had a carton of cigarettes at the home especially if she and Sherrill smoked the same brand.

Thinking back to then, there were three roads going east off "FF", Highway "M", Battlefield and Sunshine. Of the three, the one I would have used would have been Battlefield. It was on that road that most places would have been open to have sold those cigarettes. "M" would not likely have been used and Sunshine is not as likely either. I believe that two large grocery stores were on Battlefield not too far from turning off FF going east. I would think that would be the best place to get cigarettes. I wonder if the police ever thought to inquire of the night crews if she was seen coming in there. If they had, it is altogether possible that they would also have seen a possible stalker or prowler in the vicinity. Wouldn't it have been something if one of the clerks could have fingered a Cox or a Carnahan at the same time she came there? This is the longest of long shots but if she had a fresh pack of cigarettes and there were no cartons of the same brand in the home she almost certainly purchased the cigarettes while going home. That would have been a very good place to have made inquiries; if nothing else but to better set the time line.
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I think I know the two stores you are referring to, on Battlefield. One, which I used a LOT, was Food-4-Less. I can't find them on the map now, don't know if they were near the intersection of National or Campbell. But, it was in a plaza and YES, had 24/7 hours, I know, I was one of their post Midnight customers. The other, which I THINK was also 24/7, name escapes me, but was on the other side of Battlefield (to your right in this example) was near the intersection of Kansas Distressway:banghead:...errr, Expressway.

I agree, if a stop was in the cards, Battlefield would be a choice, but if you JUST wanted to get home, Sunshine and Battlefield are both start/stop/start/stop, I would have used James River Freeway East, then Glenstone. Although, can't remember, if that finished at this time ? However, another argument against JRF would be, I guess, since the girls were probably a little lit, would have been to stay off freeways and use 'backroads.' Do we know they DID use 'FF' ? Not, for sake of argument, W. Weaver Rd. east and work their way up to Glenstone, stop at some Quickie mart on Glenstone ?
 
former central time said:
I think I know the two stores you are referring to, on Battlefield. One, which I used a LOT, was Food-4-Less. I can't find them on the map now, don't know if they were near the intersection of National or Campbell. But, it was in a plaza and YES, had 24/7 hours, I know, I was one of their post Midnight customers. The other, which I THINK was also 24/7, name escapes me, but was on the other side of Battlefield (to your right in this example) was near the intersection of Kansas Distressway:banghead:...errr, Expressway.

I agree, if a stop was in the cards, Battlefield would be a choice, but if you JUST wanted to get home, Sunshine and Battlefield are both start/stop/start/stop, I would have used James River Freeway East, then Glenstone. Although, can't remember, if that finished at this time ? However, another argument against JRF would be, I guess, since the girls were probably a little lit, would have been to stay off freeways and use 'backroads.' Do we know they DID use 'FF' ? Not, for sake of argument, W. Weaver Rd. east and work their way up to Glenstone, stop at some Quickie mart on Glenstone ?
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I'm reasonably sure that the James River Freeway did not exist back in 1992. The reason I believe it would have been FF is because we lived in Battlefield back in the 1970s and just from what I know of the roads, Battlefield would be my first choice. Actually there was a short "farm road" that connected to Battlefield Street if my memory serves me correctly. Of course it has all been built up now.

I think it would have been necessary to cross over the Golden and Scenic streets first. My memory is that the other grocery across the street would have been Smitty's at the time if I recall correctly. We used to get breakfast there every Saturday morning so I know of that one. Believe it subsequently closed however after Smitty's was bought out by Albertson's. It's been so long since I have been there I could be entirely off target. I'm just remembering how best to make it across town. That's the way I would have gone myself. Weaver was a possible but I tend to think not.

We can never know what route they took so it is idle speculation. The legwork should have been done (perhaps it was) by the police department back then as we can never be absolutely certain that the girls actually arrived home, although what was there strongly indicates they did; however unproven.
 
Parts of the JRF were done but it was not complete. Probably the first two rumors that I know of to hit the street were that the women were buried either under PFI or were under the JRF somewhere.
 
Luzer said:
There was Gerald Carnahan. I heard several stories of women who told stories that they had been followed and barely got away from someone and when Carnahan's pictures were made public, they all named him....
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I happened onto your post from 2009 regarding Gerald Carnahan and wanted to ask if you would consider to fleshing this out about him. I can't say I had heard or read this (or had forgotten) before but it in no way surprises me. I find myself thinking he is climbing up the suspect list now that I am more intrigued than ever over the grave robbing business. There may be a connection of sorts.

He was convicted last year on a 25 year older murder of Jackie Johns and at this posting is serving a life (or two) sentences. Many people have commented to me that they considered him a prime suspect in this case. I didn't believe that initially but find myself coming around to that view.
 
...
Can someone here tell me with a yes or no.
If this cox person of interest.
Was out and about in Florida?
In February of 93?
Thank-you in advance
​
 
OK, MM. I'll bite. Make the case for Carnahan. Meanwhile, I'll pop over to Bartt's blog and read up on him.
 
pittsburghgirl said:
OK, MM. I'll bite. Make the case for Carnahan. Meanwhile, I'll pop over to Bartt's blog and read up on him.
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Where to begin. If you have the stomach read Air Alex and you'll get a flavor of what is going on. But as wild as that may sound I can confirm as fact the following:

1) Carnahan did in fact murder Jackie Johns in 1985 and was finally brought to justice, convicted and received a life sentence last year. There was never any doubt whatever that he was the perpetrator of that hideous crime.

2) He attempted an unsuccessful abduction of a girl in Springfield but she escaped and he received a three year sentence for that crime as I recall.

3) He had a business interest in Diversified Plastics in Nixa. Now that's where it gets somewhat fuzzy because of all of the various characters involved.

4) He burned a competitor's business and was convicted of that crime and did some hard time for that crime.

5) In the Jackie Johns murder I saw him dozens of times in my office where he was keeping vigil on his alibi witness on the charge of "tampering with evidence." As he was trying to flee the country, he was picked up at the L.A. airport and brought back to face those charges. Those charges were dismissed under rather mysterious circumstances.

6) He came from "old money" and had very deep pockets. That which he coveted he bought.

7) He broke into a neighbor's car and rolled it down the hill into a tree.

8) The police were on his case continuously - to what extent I cannot say but there was no question in anyone's mind that he was capable of very serious crimes. He was, I believe, viewed as a one man wrecking crew.

Speculation: He is widely suspected to have been involved in other abductions and disappearances throughout the Ozarks. In my opinion I believe there is a high probability he was involved in at least some of them.

Many people believed he was involved in this case from the git-go. I was dubious but as I say am now leaning in that direction for want of a better suspect.

That's a thumbnail sketch and proves nothing. Nor, for that matter does it exclude Cox or Garrison who could have "business" connections to Carnahan.

In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, there are only seven viable suspects known to be alive, but I say that because I do not know all of his business associates. That's why I suggested you investigate Air Alex. If you research that site you will see discussions involving the Robb Farm and some other characters who I cannot speak to because I don't know them. But it a fact that three individuals, unrelated to this case, were murdered, dismembered and bodies destroyed by fire on the Robb farm for which the elder Robb received life and died in prison. It is highly probable that the women were taken there and may have been alive for several days prior to being killed and remains secreted. This provides a very good time line of events and the locations where the women's bodies were believed to be buried. Of the three searches, I would say the Robb farm and the Cassville search were the most legitimate. I put less validity in the third search.

http://www.dipity.com/3missingwomen/personal/

Having said all this, sometimes it is necessary to go by one's gut and my gut tells me Carnahan is somehow involved in this crime. We are at a dead end with Cox and Garrison as neither is talking. It is impossible to read Cox in my opinion. Garrison is somewhat more interesting (if he would talk) because he put up no resistance at his trial and is now silent where he will die in prison. Unless one of these three men breaks his silence, they will all likely die in prison.

The other likely suspects are the grave robbers because of the obvious motive but I just don't sense they were capable of pulling this off. They do remain 'persons of interest' so they can't be ruled out. One of these individuals has been rumored to be connected to Carnahan. I think that is more likely than not factual.

Can I prove he committed this crime? The answer is no.
 
This is an excerpt from Carnahan's criminal history as detailed in the sentencing phase of his murder trial. This can be read in full on Bartt Streeter's blog site. He is compiling a complete record of all that is known of the possible suspects and has today some early photos from his childhood.


"In the sentencing phase of the trial, Moore told the jury about Carnahan's criminal record, something that he was prohibited from doing during the guilty-or-not-guilty portion of the trial. He listed these convictions:

-- Jan. 13, 1994, second-degree burglary of a business, two-year prison sentence;

-- Jan. 13, 1994, stealing from that business, four-year prison sentence;

-- Jan. 13, 1994, arson at that business, three-year prison sentence;

-- Jan. 10, 1994, attempted kidnapping of a girl in Springfield in 1993;

-- June 1, 1994, assault of a law enforcement officer, 11 months in county jail;

-- June 1, 1994, unlawful use of a weapon, one-year prison sentence; and

-- other prison sentences for attempted kidnapping and tampering with evidence"...
(Snip)

by Sara Forhetz, KY3 News

http://streeterfamilyblogg.blogspot.com/p/person-of-interest.html
 
I guess the key lies in determining which suspect has the motive, means, opportunity and self control to pull off such a crime. I can see lots of suspects with the motive, means and opportunity, but without the self control.

For example, the grave robbers were caught pawning $30 worth of gold, yet would have to be assumed to have had the self control to not take, or even really seem to look for, any cash or other valuables while committing an abduction.

Next example would be a family member like Bartt. I would have to think if (and it’s a big if, because I doubted it even before he addressed a lot of the issues on ID’s Disappeared) someone like Bartt did it, the primary motivation would be assumed to be anger which works against an organized crime like this.

That only leaves the convicts on the known lists of suspects. I haven’t studied their MOs enough to say which if any posses the type of self control to do this. Even if a clean up occurred in the house, there are things that can’t be cleaned up like traces of blood or damage to walls or items in the house during a struggle.

Of course, clean crime scenes are often the result of organized hits, but there’s been nothing in any way that points to these women being the target of a hit other than some (in my opinion) very wild theories.

If there was a scenario which could account for the girls removing their makeup but yet going back out of the house I sure could see that though again, even outside I’d expect more signs of struggle than just a broken light globe.

And of course there's that statement about a list of 12 suspects: if you take three grave robbers, three convicts, and then maybe a family member or two since they are always suspect, then maybe even the two concrete workers that still does not fill out the list. I wonder what pointed to others to fill out the dozen?
 
Carnahan also lived nearby (about 3 miles) 1717 Delmar in '93 (casenet.org). I'm unsure of his exact location in '92, but I don't think he's someone I would rule out.

Revak is interesting. No idea on if he was in the Springfield area in '92 or not. But he'd be the right age to gain trust with the girls. Maybe he stopped by to pick them up in the morning before White Water.
 
Here are the links for those who would like to see the documetary on the disappearance of Sherrill, Suzi and Stacy who vanished from Springfield, Missouri on June 7, 1992.


Disappeared S3x10 - The Springfield Three PART1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYOX_n2DiKM&feature=related

Disappeared S3x10 - The Springfield Three PART2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEhaByQ6xVs&feature=watch_response

Disappeared S3x10 - The Springfield Three PART3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP31v-OIlTI&feature=watch_response

Disappeared S3x10 - The Springfield Three PART4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyda6Y6Sc28&feature=watch_response
 
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