The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree? #3

[LambChop]

But my understanding is that the it was only stuck on one side in the hair

That came from Dr. Spitz because Dr. Spitz was only shown certain pictures by defense. JA asked Dr. Spitz if he saw the pictures with the tape on both sides and the doctor said no.

Remember how defense claimed their experts were "technically challenged" and they wanted the pictures downloaded onto a disk instead of having their experts go online and view for themselves on a secure site? With the pictures on the disk they could pick and choose which ones they wanted their experts to view and the experts opinions were based on those pictures alone not the entire package. Defense would have had no control over what pictures were viewed online. The tape was entangled on both sides from the hair, I believe, and it held the mandible in perfect placement. If the tape was not there the mandible would have been somewhere else. How the jury missed that, I'll never know. jmo

 

[mimmy03]

Originally Posted by pcrum12
And that's just it to me. In order to come to a conclusion in this case everyone has to SPECULATE. Regardless of which side of the fence you are on. Therefore, reasonable doubt. Therefore, NG. JMO

The facts (without speculating) are:

-FCA was the last person to see Caylee alive.
-FCA hid the fact that Caylee was missing/dead from EVERYBODY for 31 days while she went on a shopping spree with a stolen checkbook and partied.
-FCA misled police and sent them on a wild goose chase blaming "the nanny" for taking Caylee.
-Caylee was found in a swamp, decomposed, in garbage bags with duct tape embedded in her hair and across her mouth
-3 years later FCA's Sunfire still stinks of death

You don't need a cause of death to prove murder and at the very least the jury could have had the decency to find her guilty of child abuse.

 

[cuppy199]

The DT spent a lot of time saying just that. The tape was used in packaging. Trial evidence. IMO considering animals, TS Fay, it is possible that the tape was shifted and/or transfered and adhered to the hair.

DT did not have anything to back it up. If in fact that were true there would still be parts of the garbage bag still stuck to the tape. Duct tape is way to sticky to come off the service of a bag and then stick to the hair and not have parts of the bag that was stuck to the tape still intact.

 

[mimmy03]

Exactly why there was a NG verdict. Even leaving out sexual abuse, drowning, the states evidence IMO was not strong enough to convict. They just didn't have the answers to what actually happened. As far as the Anthony family not allowing her to return home, I don't see that. No doubt Cindy would have opened her arms wide. IMO, she had no intent on returning home. Casey made that decision. JMO

You don't need a cause of death to prove murder. The duct tape is more proof of Caylee being murdered than the pics of her climbing in the pool are of an accidental drowning.

 

[coco puff]

Exactly why there was a NG verdict. Even leaving out sexual abuse, drowning, the states evidence IMO was not strong enough to convict. They just didn't have the answers to what actually happened. As far as the Anthony family not allowing her to return home, I don't see that. No doubt Cindy would have opened her arms wide. IMO, she had no intent on returning home. Casey made that decision. JMO

If it was an accident, we should know exactly what happend! The defense should have been able to tell us, but what they said that we will never know....now why would that be?

 

[LambChop]

Exactly why there was a NG verdict. Even leaving out sexual abuse, drowning, the states evidence IMO was not strong enough to convict. They just didn't have the answers to what actually happened. As far as the Anthony family not allowing her to return home, I don't see that. No doubt Cindy would have opened her arms wide. IMO, she had no intent on returning home. Casey made that decision. JMO

No one was there so no one can say exactly what happened. All things considered the child is dead of unnatural causes. It's not natural for a healthy child to just die. Things to consider is Mom did not call 911, Mom partied for 31 days, Mom lied about whereabouts of child by blaming a babysitter, child was found with duct tape across the lower portion of her face, double bagged in trash bags and a laundry bag, Mom's car smelled like death verified by various witnesses, and last but not least her defense is she had nothing to do with the child's death but various people including the person who found the body were involved with disposing of Caylee's body, even though the evidence proves otherwise. Nothing defense said in opening statements was ever proven. However evidence SA presented would have made more sense if the jury had just listened instead of trying to judge the witnesses. What jurors did come forward said they did not believe GA molested KC. That meant they believed KC was lying. Why do people lie? Apparently so they can get away with murder. jmo

 

[pcrum12]

Not really ... the State's theory of death by chloroform and duct tape had plenty of evidence to back it up, including the most important evidence ... the consciousness of guilt. The Defense's theory of an accidental drowning and molestation had zero evidence to back it up as I don't consider a picture of Caylee on the pool ladder as evidence of drowning.

Please answer these questions if you would be so kind ...

1) Did the State present a photograph of Caylee playing with duct tape and say that was how she was killed ? That is what the DT is saying in effect with the pic of Caylee on the pool ladder. Of course not. The DT was refuting (Prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove.) all the PT testimony that Caylee COULDNT climb the ladder, she WOULDN'T swim without help, She COULDN'T get outside. To refute the testimony is the DT job.

2) If the Defense had presented a picture of Caylee riding her tricycle out front of the A's home, is it reasonable to assume she was hit by a car and killed ? Same analogy as the fake drowning ... That didn't happen and is irrelevant.

3) Say there was a drowning ... why have the A's left the pool up ? Why would they swear KC wasn't pregnant at the wedding lol. Who knows? Whacked up family. Everything they do is inappropriate from LA laughing to denying pregnancy. Nuts.

4) Since there was NO evidence of molestation, the jurors should have given enormous weight to the consciousness of guilt evidence and there was plenty. That same evidence could be weighed as trauma, PTSD from the loss of her child. We don't know.

5) How does anyone in their right mind not think a dead Caylee was in the trunk of the Sunfire ? In addition to all of the smell testimony/chloroform/stain/hair evidence, the highly trained and accurate cadaver dogs HIT in the trunk of the car.

Actually, I could probably be swayed to agree that she was in the trunk. However, that does not tell me if she died from accident or murder? Who put her there? Or for how long? And WHY?

MOO

 

[LambChop]

If it was an accident, we should know exactly what happend! The defense should have been able to tell us, but what they said that we will never know....now why would that be?

I know. That was so weird that the jury never caught that. JB goes into this long story about how Caylee drowned and later tells the jury, "We may never know how Caylee died." What, you just called your client a liar. I swear someone put something into their mints on their pillows at night. jmo

 

[mimmy03]

Actually, I could probably be swayed to agree that she was in the trunk. However, that does not tell me if she died from accident or murder? Who put her there? Or for how long? And WHY?

MOO

Have you ever heard of a mother not calling 911 in an accident? Have you heard of a mother putting duct tape over her child's mouth and placing her in garbage bags and tossing her in a swamp when they died accidently?

 

[pcrum12]

so you believe the tape belonged to the anthonys but you can't figure out how it got matted around her hair while lying in a swamp in garbage bags? The tape wasn't lying in the correct position where her face would have been for you to believe it was applied by her lying, LE decieving, fake call getting, phone losing, resume padding, rape crying, check stealing mother?

Could have been applied by others that ALSO had access to the tape. Could have been applied to the bags and not Caylee. Could have been applied after an accidental death. lying, LE decieving, fake call getting, phone losing, resume padding, rape crying, check stealing does not prove murder. IMO.

 

[LambChop]

Actually, I could probably be swayed to agree that she was in the trunk. However, that does not tell me if she died from accident or murder? Who put her there? Or for how long? And WHY?

MOO

With all due respect no doctors were presented as experts to say KC was suffering from trauma. Only the woman who is a grief counselor and she basically said any reaction could be a sign of grief. Jurors can't deliberate on something that was not presented as evidence. The lack of a doctor giving testimony rules out the trauma. Jury instructions were quite clear they can't consider it unless it is presented in court testimony. The only evidence the jury heard was her own lies from her own mouth that the State presented. Even the grief counselor said she had not talked with KC. jmo

 

[LambChop]

Could have been applied by others that ALSO had access to the tape. Could have been applied to the bags and not Caylee. Could have been applied after an accidental death. lying, LE decieving, fake call getting, phone losing, resume padding, rape crying, check stealing does not prove murder. IMO.

But we all know it was KC because she lied and lied and lied and then lied again up to the date of her trial. jmo

 

[RANCH]

My personal opinion is a little different. I wouldn't call speculation what a jury should do. But rather suggest that deductive reasoning based on evidence not theatrics of the attorneys is their job. Taking the pieces of true evidence and trying to put it together using common sense. I also think a big part of this is seeing past the attorneys and their statements of fact because they can't present evidence.

And I think that Jose Baez was given wayyyyy too much latitude in his leading questions in this trial. I believe he testified all over the place.

I agree grandmaj. It's my opinion this jury needed to know exactly where the murder took place,when exactly the murder took place,and how exactly the murder took place.Without that,all else is called speculation.All evidence leading a certain direction will be ignored unless those questions are answered. Some on the jury with personal history that could cloud their judgement, may take defense consul statements as believable even when instructed not to consider those statements as evidence.So its my opinion this jury needed something like a videotape or an eyewitness to tell them what happened.Anything else was just not enough.

 

[pcrum12]

Incest does NOT cause dissociation. No correlation is shown there. From your cut'n paste - you left out that "Responses can be greatly variable and idiosyncratic within the seven categories. Also, survivors may fluctuate between being highly symptomatic and relatively symptom free." Wow that's pretty hard evidence huh? Everything is a symptom of trauma in the same way that everything is a way of grieving. Nice try though, but the cut'n paste isn't much in the way of critical thinking...

You don't have to insult me. I agree, and you will find further posting by me here that do state that yes, symptoms are not inclusive to one diagnosis which I posted. However, for you to state that Incest does not cause dissociation, I stand by my original "cut and paste" information from a reputable source, The American Academy of Experts in Traumatic Stress. And that it is in fact a Common Symptoms in Adult Survivors of Childhood Sexual Abuse.

 

[pcrum12]

I think you misunderstood my post. I was giving a hypothetical scenario *if* GA was involved and how it makes no sense if he were involved to encourage FCA to talk to LE. In my eyes he has done nothing suspicious that points to him possibly murdering Caylee. FCA, on the other hand.... that's a whole 'nother story.

I have never stated or even thought that GA murdered Caylee!

 

[NavySubMom]

Incest does NOT cause dissociation. No correlation is shown there. From your cut'n paste - you left out that "Responses can be greatly variable and idiosyncratic within the seven categories. Also, survivors may fluctuate between being highly symptomatic and relatively symptom free." Wow that's pretty hard evidence huh? Everything is a symptom of trauma in the same way that everything is a way of grieving. Nice try though, but the cut'n paste isn't much in the way of critical thinking...

I was going to compare these same multiple and varied symptoms of sexual abuse to the DT "experts" theory that grieving can run the gamut from anything and everything but you did it first, Horace! it does get very exhausting to me to read through these posts about the NG verdict, IMO, MOO, etc.

 

[coco puff]

Could have been applied by others that ALSO had access to the tape. Could have been applied to the bags and not Caylee. Could have been applied after an accidental death. lying, LE decieving, fake call getting, phone losing, resume padding, rape crying, check stealing does not prove murder. IMO.

There were no other suspects with access to the tape

What kind of Duct tape would fall off of plastic bags?

I have never ever heard of a victim of and accident being duct taped. Who would do that and why? Makes no sense what so ever.

 

[NavySubMom]

That came from Dr. Spitz because Dr. Spitz was only shown certain pictures by defense. JA asked Dr. Spitz if he saw the pictures with the tape on both sides and the doctor said no.

Remember how defense claimed their experts were "technically challenged" and they wanted the pictures downloaded onto a disk instead of having their experts go online and view for themselves on a secure site? With the pictures on the disk they could pick and choose which ones they wanted their experts to view and the experts opinions were based on those pictures alone not the entire package. Defense would have had no control over what pictures were viewed online. The tape was entangled on both sides from the hair, I believe, and it held the mandible in perfect placement. If the tape was not there the mandible would have been somewhere else. How the jury missed that, I'll never know. jmo

I saw the same thing with Spitz, LambChop, in fact Spitz was very surprised when JA showed him a picture that he had never seen before....it was clear to me the DT only showed Spitz a few pictures so he would testify as they wanted him to. Also, if I recall correctly (I may be mistaken but I think I remember this), Dr. G, who had the actual skull in her hand during the autopsy, had to cut the tape from BOTH sides of Caylee's hair. BOTH sides, my impression was the tape was stuck to both sides of her hair. This is what I recall, but if I was on the jury, I would have asked for clarification on this if I had any questino in my mind, which they obviously did not as they asked for not one piece of evidence or not one readback of testimony. IMO, MOO, etc.

 

[pcrum12]

That came from Dr. Spitz because Dr. Spitz was only shown certain pictures by defense. JA asked Dr. Spitz if he saw the pictures with the tape on both sides and the doctor said no.

Remember how defense claimed their experts were "technically challenged" and they wanted the pictures downloaded onto a disk instead of having their experts go online and view for themselves on a secure site? With the pictures on the disk they could pick and choose which ones they wanted their experts to view and the experts opinions were based on those pictures alone not the entire package. Defense would have had no control over what pictures were viewed online. The tape was entangled on both sides from the hair, I believe, and it held the mandible in perfect placement. If the tape was not there the mandible would have been somewhere else. How the jury missed that, I'll never know. jmo

Can you link where you find or heard that the tape was attached to both side? I can't find anything. My understanding is that the tape was attached on one side in the hair and overlaying across the mouth area.

 

[pcrum12]

DT did not have anything to back it up. If in fact that were true there would still be parts of the garbage bag still stuck to the tape. Duct tape is way to sticky to come off the service of a bag and then stick to the hair and not have parts of the bag that was stuck to the tape still intact.

Not if the tape was used to secure the CANVAS bag.