The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Good morning,

I do think the last witness was testifying that the woman in the white jacket stood out to her because she felt it was too warm for the jacket. It stood out to her period. This is the only reason. Not that it was hot or cold but that the woman in the white jacket stood out

She may well have felt warm and that a jacket was not necessary. Her testimony in that regard would only be meaningful to me however if she or anyone else could say that nobody (i.e. 300+ students and staff and the rest of Woodstock) was wearing a coat that day. IMO, whomever she saw could have been just about anyone entering the school that day.

JMO
 
JMO it seems to me he doesn't believe any of the people who testified said the whole truth and nothing but the truth. JMO ONLY

I totally agree with you and having lost a family member to a violent homicide I think it is very pragmatic on his part to advise his loved ones to not take anyone in this scenario at their word.

Everyone has an agenda. TLM, MR, prosecution and defense. They all have a motivation to present the data in a way that best fits their goal. I am not criticizing prosecution or even defense, that is their job, and as long as they stay within their ethical/professional standards I think it is a given that they are both avoiding points that don't play well to the story they are telling.

TLM is telling the story in a way that benefits her and MR is trying to present a story that benefits him.

Now they are both likely to be in jail for the rest of their lives, I think that is a given, but they are BOTH trying desperately to distance themselves from rape of this child. TLM is not stupid, she told her story and put her spin on it and tried (successfully) to make herself a star witness who is "helping" with prosecution of MR.

To me it is not a coincidence that TLM walked away from that school with a child whose family she had multiple contacts points with. I think she targeted VS. She knew VS had a dog at home from the breeding discussion.

In her handwritten notes she says that she encountered VS at one point in the neighborhood and VS pet TLMs dog. The same dog she used as bait and a point of reference to lure VS out to the car without setting off ANYONEs alarms. I think that was less to make VS comfortable and more to make TLM comfortable. She was out there on her own. If she had ended up with a screaming child and a MR driving away from his convenient vantage point?

I know that TLM denies having earlier contact with VS and I *believe* that mom and dad were unaware of the previous dog petting encounter. TLM has no motivation to say she planned this out, stalked/groomed/targeted/exploited an opportunity to take VS.

TLM willingly admits and takes sole responsibility for beating this child to death with a hammer. But she completely distances herself from the sexual assault and rape? MR told her "you know I am going to....., right?". This was news to her. She walked away during that time, immersed herself in her own childhood victimization (points for getting that out in the public record and in front of the jury victim turned criminal turned remorseful star witness taking responsibility for her own sins... gag me).

TLM tees it up that she kidnapped VS and she killed VS and the ONE thing she couldn't bare and couldn't witness just happens to be the one that MR can't explain away because his sperm is at the crime scene. Another big coincidence in the story TLM put together and told first.

I think TLM was very much aware of the sexual assault, catered to his sick pedophile fantasies and facilitated its delivery much like Karla H did for Paul B. I think she was much more aware if it not involved directly with the sexual assualt. The bloody pee break, the request to hold her hand for comfort thru round two. That is not something you pop in from your own childhood flashback to be intimately involved in, hand her over for round two while seeking personal refuge from the horror you can't bare. That is the part that is ridiculous to me. Not whether she stopped at the front door or dared to step into the school.

But from that point after he is done, krazy/angry/victim herself/rap influenced TLM turns all of that rage and violence on to the child she has supposedly been identifying with thru their mutual victimizations? Not on the child rapist that is in front of her. She isn't shocked into attacking him with the weapon she HANDPICKED. No she turns her jealous rage against the competition, against the object of MRs desire. But that isn't a very flattering image for the witness.

Where are the bloody clothes TLM would have been wearing? She was out in the field standing in the cold all by herself while MR was raping a VS right? The violence she describes and the forensics support show a really bloody and very up close and personal killing. TLM says she delivered the blows. MR "admits" to helping clean up the scene after he returns from his own walk in the country and his shocking return to what TLM had done totally unbeknowst to him (with a weapon he pulled the money out for and sat in the parking lot while she purchased). But neither one of them have particularly bloody clothes after this clean up? If I tried to run errands wearing a white coat it would probably have pepsi spilled on the front, dog fur and/or dog spit from one or both of my dogs on the back. Just saying....

But to the original point, VS is the only that knows what happened and dad is very wise to consider all the info being presented to be packaged to some degree. TLM boxes MR in with the witness statement to the rape, MR can't shine a light on what TLM was really involved in without acknowledging mutual involvement in raping VS, I am sure we all agree the defense is not presenting data harmful to MR, and the state surely knows the data that is missing in TLMs story but bringing those lies to the forefront is not beneficial to the goal of convicting MR.
 
I dont doubt a terrified and threatened child would be compliant. I wonder tho if they had sedated Tori since they seemed so comfortable in making stops. A mere sighting of Tori would want to be avoided.

They were too early to meet BA when they arrived in Guelph. Now short of hiding out in a secluded area or a quiet parking lot waiting for her to get home from work, I'm not sure what else they were supposed to do. Hiding out would have made them look more suspicious IMO. Especially if the word was out that there was a missing child. Obviously MR felt they had Victoria under control enough to stop at a Tim Hortons which it appears he was addicted to. And we don't know how out of the way or busy that THs was because even though his defence is admitting that they stopped at a THs, LE still don't know which one it was and no one has come forward to say they saw them there.

The second stop was a prearranged meeting with BA and was to pick up his much needed drugs so that one was a given. And of course he jumped out of the car and went up the driveway to meet her when she got home. And went in the house and chatted like he always does. Lying and manipulation come very easy to him so why wouldn't he appear to be normal even with a kidnapped child in the car? But he never did introduce his good friend to the other occupants in his car.

The third stop also seemed to be a necessity unfortunately.:(

So I don't know how "comfortable" they were making these stops but each one seemed to be somewhat a necessary...well at least in their drug addled minds anyway.

MOO
 
It does make sense that Tori was sedated. Especially with what these two had planned for her. We all hope she was.

Could be something as simple as Tori being told to sit quietly because we're going to take you home right after Mike finishes his visit with BA.

JMO
 
I don't think it makes sense (from a killer's pov) that she was sedated. Sadistic killers like to hurt and torture. Rapists like to exert their power in tangible ways. Frightening and hurting their victims are tangible ways to do this.

I know everyone wishes she was sedated, I do too, but I just don't see it.
imo
 
I totally agree with you and having lost a family member to a violent homicide I think it is very pragmatic on his part to advise his loved ones to not take anyone in this scenario at their word.


So sorry that you have suffered a tragic loss. Great post, I wish I could have liked it twice.
 
They were too early to meet BA when they arrived in Guelph. Now short of hiding out in a secluded area or a quiet parking lot waiting for her to get home from work, I'm not sure what else they were supposed to do. Hiding out would have made them look more suspicious IMO. Especially if the word was out that there was a missing child. Obviously MR felt they had Victoria under control enough to stop at a Tim Hortons which it appears he was addicted to. And we don't know how out of the way or busy that THs was because even though his defence is admitting that they stopped at a THs, LE still don't know which one it was and no one has come forward to say they saw them there.

The second stop was a prearranged meeting with BA and was to pick up his much needed drugs so that one was a given. And of course he jumped out of the car and went up the driveway to meet her when she got home. And went in the house and chatted like he always does. Lying and manipulation come very easy to him so why wouldn't he appear to be normal even with a kidnapped child in the car? But he never did introduce his good friend to the other occupants in his car.

The third stop also seemed to be a necessity unfortunately.:(

So I don't know how "comfortable" they were making these stops but each one seemed to be somewhat a necessary...well at least in their drug addled minds anyway.

MOO


BBM

Don't forget though, they were in Guelph at BA's house at 4:30, Victoria wasn't reported missing until 6 pm that day. They could have sat in a parking lot somewhere. The general public had no idea she was missing until much later that evening, I'm not even sure anyone outside of the area would have known that evening. An amber alert wasn't issued until days later. Anyone know when it was first mentioned in the media she was missing?
 
i believe because the debt theory was brought forward so early in this case and then it does turn out that Tori's stepfather ( Her mom's Boyfriend/ i forgot his name) DID in fact owe someone who he ripped off for $400 worth of oxy.

I believe this is where people feel it was the truth even though no one testified that Tori was the intended victim, Having a rumour so early in the investigation and then finding out that there was a drug debt by him to whom i do not know ( was never testified who he ripped off )

I does not justify their actions at all and both of them should spend a great deal of years behind bars for their actions or non actions that resulted in Tori's death. Tori did not deserve this
 
BBM

Don't forget though, they were in Guelph at BA's house at 4:30, Victoria wasn't reported missing until 6 pm that day. They could have sat in a parking lot somewhere. The general public had no idea she was missing until much later that evening, I'm not even sure anyone outside of the area would have known that evening. An amber alert wasn't issued until days later. Anyone know when it was first mentioned in the media she was missing?

They didn't know that she hadn't been reported as missing yet though. And any suspicious behaviour, especially in that car would be noticed. Parking in a secluded area or parking lot in broad daylight might have been just the thing to make a police officer on patrol pull up beside them and ask what's up.

MOO
 
i believe because the debt theory was brought forward so early in this case and then it does turn out that Tori's stepfather ( Her mom's Boyfriend/ i forgot his name) DID in fact owe someone who he ripped off for $400 worth of oxy.

I believe this is where people feel it was the truth even though no one testified that Tori was the intended victim, Having a rumour so early in the investigation and then finding out that there was a drug debt by him to whom i do not know ( was never testified who he ripped off )

I does not justify their actions at all and both of them should spend a great deal of years behind bars for their actions or non actions that resulted in Tori's death. Tori did not deserve this

I'm not sure that it was never testified to about whom JG ripped off. Perhaps it was and it was also put under a ban since that person has nothing to do with this case. But if not, the defense certainly had the opportunity to call JG to the stand and ask him. They did not.

There was no drug debt between any of the parties involved in this case IMO.

MOO
 
I'm not sure that it was never testified to about whom JG ripped off. Perhaps it was and it was also put under a ban since that person has nothing to do with this case. But if not, the defense certainly had the opportunity to call JG to the stand and ask him. They did not.

There was no drug debt between any of the parties involved in this case IMO.

MOO

Agree. That would have been investigated early in. I believe also it has nothing to do with this case.
 
I wonder where it is from? You can buy pea-coat like coats at bigger chain stores that aren't all wool.


http://www.sears.ca/catalog/outerwear/12090/0#navControls XXXXXX pea coat looks similar except that LE pic the coat looks washed up! lol There is a XXXXXXX brand one there too. But they are both containing some wool. Some young ppl like XXXXXXXX XXXXX and *advertiser censored* XXXX now those brands might be washable. But it could have been a gift so maybe is an expensive one from XXXXX or maybe he got it over in the states. MOO

I think that the LE coat pic has coat done up not the way it is worn???? MOO But to me; the LE pic looks like a coat that has been washed and is mis-shapen. JMO
 
The whole drug debt theory really baffles me. IMO, if Tori was taken due to a drug debt, she would have been taken in an attempt to get payment for this debt. There would have been a ransom call made...there wasn't! Maybe I watch entirely too much TV, but I honestly don't think a drug dealer would take a child and just kill without attempting to get the money owed to them. To a drug addict/dealer I would believe it is much more important for them to get their money. All this JMO, and again maybe I just watch entirely too much TV to think this.


to most your logic would apply but we are talking about TLM here...I don't think the money involved,if in fact it was a drug debt was the reason...it was pure revenge IMO...could have been for someone ripping her or CM off for drugs or it could be the issue over the breeding of the dogs...I don't think TLM or MR were smart enough to orchestrate an actual kidnapping for ransom and besides where would TM or JG come up with bucks to pay...can't get blood from a turnip....just saying.. JMO
 
I wonder where it is from? You can buy pea-coat like coats at bigger chain stores that aren't all wool.

I have two pea coats. One that is wool and then another that is made from faux suave. I got them at Cost co.
 
Agree. That would have been investigated early in. I believe also it has nothing to do with this case.

I don't think it has anything to do with the case from the standpoint of whether the jury will convict him or not, but I think there maybe a shred of truth to the story.

VSs mother admits that she and her boyfriend bought oxy at TLMs residence twice. In TLMs warped thought process, being raised by as a drug addict by a drug addict, they have their own world/rules/values about the worth of their drugs.

I am not saying TLM actually believed the motivation had anything to do with 20 oxy tablets but I can see her taking her real motivation (finding a rape victim to offer up to "good man" she had found) and winding herself up in made up anger about some made up/exagerrated/perceived drug debt to make it easier on herself to do what she was going to do.

We have seen endless reference from TLM about her blinding rage and anger issues. I think she would be much more comfortable pursuing a victim out of vindictive rage than acknowledging their real motivation. As I said before the anger she let loose on VS in the way she killed her I think she was angry with her, jealous about her "good mans" lust/interest in her.

I am not blaming anyone other than TLM and MR, but I don't think you can completely ignore the early early rumor that this was drug related followed by the reality that VS was escorted to her death by a woman who sold her mother oxys. The same drug dealer that she discussed breeding dogs with, the same dogs the kidnapper would use to create false familiarity with her intended victim.

It is a very unfortunate theme but so many of the victims we read about daily have drug abuse very close to them. I cannot imagine the guilt and what ifs that surround everyone in this case. The grandmother that didn't want to testify for the defense feels guilty. That is what I heard in her testimony, I saw them, I noticed them, they stood out to me, what if....
 
The type of person who would take a kid for a drug debt...could they also be the type of person who would take a kid to sell or take photos of, or to fullfill a fantasy. Doesn't seem as though crown offered any type of motive but just displayed the facts so unless we hear something else down the road it really is up in the air the "why" of it. We do know statistically what is the norm in these rare cases involving males. To convict on either of the charges I don't think the motive is necessary. The fact that TS was murdered so soon after abducting her speaks to the motive being the act of murder and rape in and of itself. MOO So THAT would discount the other theories somewhat. JMO
 
Was the grandma the one in the vehicle that we see driving by in the CASS shot? This is around the time that the woman was on the sidewalk waiting for her child. She also testified at the beginning of the trial. Did this other witness say that Tori and TLM were chatty? Was Tori talking a mile a minute? The witness' name is LP. She testified on March 6th. TIA
 
It is hard to dismiss the drug debt theory, for those who followed the case from the beginning.

It goes back to denials of drug use, denials of knowing each other, denials of drug debts.........all of which were found to be true.

It also goes back to the first month of investigation by LE, where they focused their attention, and why they did.

There is no denying drugs are a central part of this sad story. You can't rewrite history, regardless of sensitivities.

I believe more will come out after the trial has ended.

I hope MR is given justice......which ever way the verdict goes.

JMO........
 
I totally agree with you and having lost a family member to a violent homicide I think it is very pragmatic on his part to advise his loved ones to not take anyone in this scenario at their word.

Everyone has an agenda. TLM, MR, prosecution and defense. They all have a motivation to present the data in a way that best fits their goal. I am not criticizing prosecution or even defense, that is their job, and as long as they stay within their ethical/professional standards I think it is a given that they are both avoiding points that don't play well to the story they are telling.

TLM is telling the story in a way that benefits her and MR is trying to present a story that benefits him.

Now they are both likely to be in jail for the rest of their lives, I think that is a given, but they are BOTH trying desperately to distance themselves from rape of this child. TLM is not stupid, she told her story and put her spin on it and tried (successfully) to make herself a star witness who is "helping" with prosecution of MR.

To me it is not a coincidence that TLM walked away from that school with a child whose family she had multiple contacts points with. I think she targeted VS. She knew VS had a dog at home from the breeding discussion.

In her handwritten notes she says that she encountered VS at one point in the neighborhood and VS pet TLMs dog. The same dog she used as bait and a point of reference to lure VS out to the car without setting off ANYONEs alarms. I think that was less to make VS comfortable and more to make TLM comfortable. She was out there on her own. If she had ended up with a screaming child and a MR driving away from his convenient vantage point?

I know that TLM denies having earlier contact with VS and I *believe* that mom and dad were unaware of the previous dog petting encounter. TLM has no motivation to say she planned this out, stalked/groomed/targeted/exploited an opportunity to take VS.

TLM willingly admits and takes sole responsibility for beating this child to death with a hammer. But she completely distances herself from the sexual assault and rape? MR told her "you know I am going to....., right?". This was news to her. She walked away during that time, immersed herself in her own childhood victimization (points for getting that out in the public record and in front of the jury victim turned criminal turned remorseful star witness taking responsibility for her own sins... gag me).

TLM tees it up that she kidnapped VS and she killed VS and the ONE thing she couldn't bare and couldn't witness just happens to be the one that MR can't explain away because his sperm is at the crime scene. Another big coincidence in the story TLM put together and told first.

I think TLM was very much aware of the sexual assault, catered to his sick pedophile fantasies and facilitated its delivery much like Karla H did for Paul B. I think she was much more aware if it not involved directly with the sexual assualt. The bloody pee break, the request to hold her hand for comfort thru round two. That is not something you pop in from your own childhood flashback to be intimately involved in, hand her over for round two while seeking personal refuge from the horror you can't bare. That is the part that is ridiculous to me. Not whether she stopped at the front door or dared to step into the school.

But from that point after he is done, krazy/angry/victim herself/rap influenced TLM turns all of that rage and violence on to the child she has supposedly been identifying with thru their mutual victimizations? Not on the child rapist that is in front of her. She isn't shocked into attacking him with the weapon she HANDPICKED. No she turns her jealous rage against the competition, against the object of MRs desire. But that isn't a very flattering image for the witness.

Where are the bloody clothes TLM would have been wearing? She was out in the field standing in the cold all by herself while MR was raping a VS right? The violence she describes and the forensics support show a really bloody and very up close and personal killing. TLM says she delivered the blows. MR "admits" to helping clean up the scene after he returns from his own walk in the country and his shocking return to what TLM had done totally unbeknowst to him (with a weapon he pulled the money out for and sat in the parking lot while she purchased). But neither one of them have particularly bloody clothes after this clean up? If I tried to run errands wearing a white coat it would probably have pepsi spilled on the front, dog fur and/or dog spit from one or both of my dogs on the back. Just saying....

But to the original point, VS is the only that knows what happened and dad is very wise to consider all the info being presented to be packaged to some degree. TLM boxes MR in with the witness statement to the rape, MR can't shine a light on what TLM was really involved in without acknowledging mutual involvement in raping VS, I am sure we all agree the defense is not presenting data harmful to MR, and the state surely knows the data that is missing in TLMs story but bringing those lies to the forefront is not beneficial to the goal of convicting MR.

great post, lots of good points. Also, you reminded me...TLM said she lost it because of flashbacks and that is why she killed Tori with the hammer. EXCEPT, she bought the hammer before that. MOO
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
130
Guests online
1,563
Total visitors
1,693

Forum statistics

Threads
601,768
Messages
18,129,554
Members
231,138
Latest member
mjF7nx
Back
Top