Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

[eddeva]

I know what I see when I look into KC's eyes. A faker. She is like my mother was, tricking the world into believing she was a great mom. Only I knew the truth.

when i look into her eyes i see nothing, then a thought darting like a rodent from the cover of one rock only to hide behind another, then nothing.

 

[Chess613]

one thing I was looking at for June 16th

Computer activity stops around 3:00pm

2:52 PM call from JG 673 seconds-in JG interview he at first said he thought he heard Caylee in the back ground....Heard KC yell *get down off the table*
If this is true Caylee could not have been in the pool3:04 PM call from GA 25 seconds

ok....lets say JG didnt hear Caylee in the back ground and she was in the pool...and KC discovers that Caylee has drowned in the pool at 3:00 pm

This gives KC 35mins before she makes a all to AL

3:35 PM calls AL 22 seconds

Then KC has another 35 mins until the flury of calls start and she heads back to AL

4:10 PM calls GA at work 34 seconds
4:11 PM calls CA twice
4:13 PM calls CA twice
4:14 PM calls GA 98 seconds

4:18 PM texts AL (now appears to be travelling away from Anthony home)


4:19 PM text from AL
4:19 PM calls AL
4:21 PM calls JG twice; second call 75 seconds
4:25 PM calls CA 3 seconds (now pinging near AL's apt)
6:31 PM calls CA
6:32 PM calls CA
6:32 PM calls home

How does KC get Caylee out of the pool.....get all there things together.....plus KC's clothes would be wet.....so she would have to change....get her self together and head to Tony's and not skip a beat?

I just dont see how an hour would be enough time to do all of that....
but I have never had it happen to me either...... so who knows right....just thought I would throw that out there....

a loving mother wouldnt just scoop her baby up and throw her in the trunk and then head off to her boy friends house and act like nothing happend....she would call 911

just my thoughts.....

Actually, Jesse does call her just before 2:53PM and speaks to her for just over 11 minutes. This is noted in both the ATT records and in the timeline narrative from the latest document dump (I just double-checked). Jesse does think he hears Caylee in the background during this call, but it is clearly not the same call that he later retracts hearing her. When that call ends GA calls KC and speaks to her for less than half a minute.

Wow - guess I need to pick my face up.. <smiles> Thanks for pointing out the correction.

The timeline I outlined had been floating around the internet forever, I had assumed it was fact. Can you give me the link to the latest document dump?

 

[BuzzieCat]

When some of you speculate that Casey was "scared" of CA, do you mean literally scared? As in, she's going to beat me up? I think she was afraid of CA withdrawing favors/money or doing anything that would hamper her lifestyle, but I don't think she was afraid physically.

 

[JWG]

Wow - guess I need to pick my face up.. <smiles> Thanks for pointing out the correction.

The timeline I outlined had been floating around the internet forever, I had assumed it was fact. Can you give me the link to the latest document dump?

LOL - no need to pick up your face. Happens to me all the time.

The best source for the latest document dump, IMHO, is at CFNEWS13. There was a lot of useful, if not subtle, information in that dump.

 

[JWG]

When some of you speculate that Casey was "scared" of CA, do you mean literally scared? As in, she's going to beat me up? I think she was afraid of CA withdrawing favors/money or doing anything that would hamper her lifestyle, but I don't think she was afraid physically.

Scared of losing love and approval.

 

[SoCalSleuth]

Caylee's manner of death is homicide, though the cause is undetermined. This means it could have been accidental, but does not rule out murder.

We will go round and round on this and come to this final analysis until we hear all the facts not yet released. There is simply not enough to prove one or the other without adding in our personal opinions, and that is not evidence, my friends. What we THINK doesn't matter in this instance.

How do you go from the manner of death was homicide but could have been an accident???? The ME ruled the death a homicide. That means, the death was a homicide not an accident. The cause of death being undetermined doesn't change it from a homicide to an accident.

 

[JWG]

How do you go from the manner of death was homicide but could have been an accident???? The ME ruled the death a homicide. That means, the death was a homicide not an accident. The cause of death being undetermined doesn't change it from a homicide to an accident.

Not true. Negligent homicide could be the charge. That is, an accident could have been prevented if Casey had been paying more attention to her daughter than the computer and cell phone.

"Homicide" is a conveniently broad term.

 

[Nelliebell]

Correct - it will not affect the outcome. But the discourse forces us to think objectively and to learn from each other. I look forward to the thoughtful posts that disagree with my perspective because they force me to re-examine my reasoning. There is value in that for all of us.

Plus, all of us want to see the same result - justice for Caylee. There is comfort in such company.

I too, have found myself re-examining my own conclusions in this case after reading other WS theories.Like I've said previously, I believe the circumstantial evidence points to an intentional death.

Now I need your help JWG since you have become my resident expert on the computer/cell phone records. Not sure if this is an appropriate place to post but here goes:

I came across several Youtube videos that were made concerning KC's location based on her cell pings from 6/14-6/27 (there are about 3 sep. videos). It is amazing to watch all of the alleged movements she was making during this time period, but my question to you is, do you think these are accurate/helpful in tracking KC's whereabouts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWYQEyqWLUs

thanks for your thoughts

 

[kiki the parrot]

I have to respectfully disagree on the loving, doting mother aspect. No one knows what goes on behind doors. I highly doubt Casey was a loving, devoted mother when she was alone with Caylee. Casey was very good at being a phony. I'm sure Amy thought she was a good friend until she realized she was robbing her blind. Casey pretended to be lots of things in front of her friends. Looking back at past cases, S. Smith appeared to be a loving, devoted mother yet she strapped her children in car seats and drown them in a lake. S. Peterson is another supposed loving husband and father to be. He killed his pregnant wife and dumped her in the bay without a second thought. My point is, Casey isn't going to abuse or neglect Caylee in front of people...that rarely happens.

The most compelling reason for Casey not being a loving devoted mother is Cindy wanted to get custody of Caylee. It's pretty clear on the 911 call that Cindy alluded to that fact when she was put on hold. I highly doubt Cindy would have entertained the thought of custody if she felt Casey was a good mother.

KC by all reports was an absentee mother--not an abusive one--who continued to have the option, if need be, of leaving Caylee w fulltime caregivers (CA and GA).

Totally agree. If I am understanding the accident theory, she didn't seek help of any sort, confided in no one, wrapped her daughter in garbage bags and tossed her in the woods, then went dancing and by all accounts was not subdued or upset even once, then lied to her family, the police, got arrested, saw how much pain her parents were in not knowing, kept on lying, got bonded out saw that her parents were in danger with protesters escalating in front of their home, turned down a limited immunity deal, all while her child rots around the corner, and then saw a grand jury come back with a capital offense case, and she is still silent.

This is NOTHING like the accidental deaths that have been posted in the other links. Nothing. The person described above isn't covering up an accident, they are cold and heartless, they don't care who they are hurting, including their own toddler.

Yes KC, we know, continues to lie--even when her whack lies are one after another disproven; even in the face of overwhelming evidence; even when she'd w/out a doubt stand a better chance simply feigning an accident; even when offered limited immunity; even once her daughter's remains are discovered; even when she knows it will surely mean LWOP or even death. Is it therefore just possible it is has never been LE whom KC fears...??

From all that I have seen and read of KC, if there was, say, a pool accident , she would have sought assistance to deal with the body, as she did with flat tires and no gas. She would have had no trouble explaining that it was not really her fault. She would have sworn that it was CA or GA who left the ladder in the wrong place etc. Not a problem fot KC at all. As I have said before it is possible that one of her ideas to explain the death was to fake a pool accident.

KC knew and had likely long known only too well, owing to the certain admonishment and constant reminders by CA, in the absence of adequate pool safety and childproofing precautions, the critical importance of hyper-vigilance of what flimsy barriers there were (gate and ladder), and the urgency of supervising Caylee properly--and for which reason Caylee's death, due to KC's negligence was not exactly the same as running out of gas (!) but became for KC her mother's fulfilling prophecy, the ultimate condemnation and blame which could NOT be shifted... And after failing to get any reassurance from anyone in those first, critical, panic-stricken minutes in desperation, she thinks up the kidnapper ruse--or as some have suggested, perhaps only fabricated this when confronted a month later, when CA plants the seed demanding to know, "WHO HAS HER?"

My feeling is Caylee died from neglect and abuse at the hands of her Mom. Do not know the ins and outs of why, how, when but do believe that she has always depended on her Mother to come to the rescue, use common sense, talk quietly to Caylee, get her to sleep, eat, or calm down. Without her Mom, I think Casey was dealing with a Caylee who desperatley was calling for "Grandma...." constantly!
Not that Casey intentionally wanted to neglect/abuse her daughter - she just was preoccupied with sex because to get sex was a sign of love. There's an old saying: men make love to get sex - whereas women have sex to get love.

(bold mine) I agree KC was just too preoccupied and it was her neglect and poor supervision which likely resulted in Caylee's death. But as a woman I just feel compelled to add that some women actually enjoy intimacy (thoroughly... lol) having already been given assurance they're loved; and I could be way off but I'm assuming there may be one man out there who's seeking love in all the wrong places... ok, maybe two... lol.

i've wondered about this idea too poirot. maybe she staged herself a nice little accident then called mommy and daddy expecting them to fly into action .... except being a sociopath and therefore not understanding normal emotions it never occurred to her that everyone might still be so pi$$ed at the fight from the night before that they chose to completely ignore her calls.
just a thought.

I agree heated argument IS in fact the very reason nobody responded to KC's urgent calls for help and in hindsight, perhaps causes CA especially to feel guilt for refusing to respond in those critical minutes--with good reason. JMO

This is a very good post. I agree, right along with JWG, that this was an accidental death - I've always felt that Caylee tried to climb the ladder by herself and fell, hitting her head. Considering what JWG had said posted earlier, tracking the internet usage and the abrupt stoppage of the computer at 3pm, it's possible Casey either caught Caylee on the stairs at that moment, or heard her hit her head and cry at that moment. Even then, she may not have known how serious it was, but three minutes later, she calls her father (the one she trusts the most), but he doesn't answer. So she tries to take care of things herself, in total denial of how serious this is. When it's clear Caylee is dead, she goes in cover up mode, something she's been doing her entire life. Everything else happens, which is more about her own self denial and her covering up the accident from her parents and friends.

Now, for those who refuse to believe accidental death because of the internet searches in March and her subsequent behavior after 6/16, try this on for size: the Father's Day argument was the apex of hostilities between Casey and Cindy, for Cindy never put her hands on Casey and Casey had never yelled like that to her mother before. So i think she's still simmering from the argument. But unlike Cindy, she chooses to withhold her anger until later - there's a lot of stuff building up inside her, but like most bullies, she would only unleash it on someone she can truly control. Like her daughter. I think, with the alone time she had with Caylee between 12:50pm and 3pm on 6/16, Casey tries to pick Caylee's mind as to who she loves more - her or Cindy. Either that or Caylee says something that sets Casey off momentarily. And Casey acts out what she really wanted to do to Cindy on Caylee. If she murdered Caylee, I think it was spontaneous and she never considered what would happen next. When Casey does act on something premeditated, like theft, I think it's well thought out. this wasn't. She's repeatedly backing up her car, she borrows a shovel from a next door neighbor, she's making admissions about the smelly car (almost a tip off by itself - why did Amy NEED to know that anyway?), the ill conceived abandonment of the car at the Amscot (if to abandon it, why leave the license plates on and her pocketbook? if to be stolen, why call Lazzaro to push the car there? Did she want Lazzaro to lie for her?); and the bizarre stream of consciousness of the Bella Vita tattoo, the erratic stealing, the "everybody lies, everybody dies" posting, and the partying? It all sums up to me like a girl who suddenly did a terrible deed, tried as best as she logically could to cover it up, and then finally said to hell with it, partied like hell, knowing it was going to end eventually. Her last option was to move to California and try to hook up with yet another guy, but she got caught before she could execute that plan.
And for those who STILL insist it was premeditated murder, answer this: if she planned it in March, why wait until June?

(bold mine) ITA w accident theory, esp bolded! Pools are known as 'silent killers' for a reason--there would have been no crying, splashing, nothing until KC's sinking feeling following a too long silence (10 minutes? 20? 45?) As I've stated whether or not Caylee was technically beyond hope of medical revival, KC may have--justifiably or no--feared her daughter was at best beyond hope of ever being restored to her former active, alert self... and in her fear, guilt, immaturity, and panic may have been unable to face even this possibility. KC's "abrupt" (?) end to computer usage indicates to me that whatever happened and regardless of how quickly she was able to locate Caylee, once found, KC could not return. Most likely searching until KC finally, having checked every other possible hiding place, and w her mother's repeated warnings WHAT HAVE YOU DONE deafening her ears, approached the worst place she could imagine finding her child: on the bottom of the family's pool. JMO

And I do agree that a loving mother would never just scoop a dead baby up, throw her in the trunk and head off to hang out with her man. But this is Casey Anthony we're talking about. Not necessarily a cold hearted killer. But a 22 year old who thinks like a teenager, who rather treated her daughter like a broken china dish and may have hoped that if she hid the pieces away, no one will blame her. A short term cover up, not realizing the long term effects. Just as a child would.

(respectfully snipped, bold mine) Bingo. Bravo. ITA w bolded, excellent analogy. JMO

 

[JWG]

I too, have found myself re-examining my own conclusions in this case after reading other WS theories.Like I've said previously, I believe the circumstantial evidence points to an intentional death.

Now I need your help JWG since you have become my resident expert on the computer/cell phone records. Not sure if this is an appropriate place to post but here goes:

I came across several Youtube videos that were made concerning KC's location based on her cell pings from 6/14-6/27 (there are about 3 sep. videos). It is amazing to watch all of the alleged movements she was making during this time period, but my question to you is, do you think these are accurate/helpful in tracking KC's whereabouts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWYQEyqWLUs

thanks for your thoughts

LOL - I am happy to agree to disagree.

I don't want to diminish the hard work that went into making the videos, but they don't. IMHO, provide a highly accurate account of her movements. The videos move from one cell tower to the other, whereas KC (and everyone else) moved between cell towers. Furthermore, the cell phone records released by LE include the Cell ID, which tells is which side of the cell tower KC was. The videos do not take this into account.

For example, KC's route from her parents' to AL's would be a simple shot up Hopespring to Suburban, Suburban to Chickasaw, Chickasaw to Colonial, Colonial to Goldenrod, and Goldenrod to University. The video, on the other hand, has us flying to-and-fro all over east Orlando.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

I don't think we'd be so focused on the pool if it weren't for the fact that 31 days later the As remember the gate being open and the ladder down....how 31 days later they remember it's that exact date is beyond me...have they ever said for sure it was that exact date? I know there is some talk that the neighbors heard someone in the pool...again, they'd be recalling this 31 days later...are they sure of the date? Where in the doc dumps is this info? I haven't come across it, but there is so much information out there, so I'm assuming I just missed it...

There is also the possibilty that whatever happened KC deliberated staging a drowning, then for some reason thought the better of it...

I have wondered at times, and just throwing this out there, if KC was so mad on the night of the 15/morning of 16 that at some point she just viciously shook Caylee. It may have been something completely out of character for her, but for whatever reason she is angry enough and gives into it. I'm remembering a case where the parents got home from work and their child was acting odd, and they thought he was coming down sick...he got worse and when he became unresponsive, they rushed him to the hospital, but he died...the autopsy discovered he had been shaken, and when they checked their nanny cam it actually showed the sitter shaking him...it was a dateline or 20/20 or something a couple years back....
Maybe this happens, and at first Casey just realizes she's totally lost it, but Caylee seems okay...then maybe at some point, Caylee starts acting "off" and Casey realizes she may have hurt her...she fears getting her help because she knows she'll be implicated...maybe that's why she's leaving with Caylee when George gets home...so that he wont have a chance to interact to much with Caylee and realize something's wrong...maybe she's hoping Caylee will "come out of it" but maybe around the flurry of phone calls time, she finds Caylee unresponsive...maybe she's pacing, trying to figure out what to do...maybe she begins to stage a drowning, but panics, or runs out of time...

There are a lot of plausibles...but if it's truly an accident you call 911...if it's an accident, I imagine she would feel responsible...grief stricken...inconsolable...Fusian Fridays would be meaningless...

I would agree with JWG that the simplest solution makes the most sense, especially since we know she was not careful or crafty in covering her tracks, body disposal, etc...I would only add the simplest solution supported by the evidence...

What we know:

Caylee alive on 6/15
George states Caylee seen alive 6/16 at 2pm
Pool gate was reportedly open, ladder reportedly down
Body in trunk at some point
Body out of trunk by 6/27
Chloroform in trunk of unknown origin
No trauma to skeleton
Cadaver dogs hit in backyard
Body left in dense area near home, not far from road in garbage bag
Items found with body linked to A home
Cindy reports Caylee missing after 31 days
Casey out partying in this time period, mentions to no one daughter is missing
No one sees Caylee after 6/16
Casey's affect to LE on questioning is flat and unemotional

Snip this list and add things I know I have missed if you want...

 

[suspicious1]

I was wondering if anyone has gone back to the broadcast that interviewed the physic that said she knew who killed Caylee? I was wondering if anyone had any connections to those statements in that letter that she read supposedly from Caylee.
I just had something on my mind about that and the fact that she said she knew who killed Caylee. I am sure KC is involved but I was just thinking that maybe a guy did help her and he worked in autopart stores (in Caylees statement to the physic). When KC said she was protecting someone, maybe she is....JB keeps saying we don't know the whole story, just maybe this is the part we're missing...Who could she be protecting? What role did this person play in all of this?

I am just rambling on but I got a gut feeling that there was a man involved in this somehow. Some of the facts point to the possibility that a man helped her in someway. But hey I might be wrong.

 

[TakeNote]

Correct - it will not affect the outcome. But the discourse forces us to think objectively and to learn from each other. I look forward to the thoughtful posts that disagree with my perspective because they force me to re-examine my reasoning. There is value in that for all of us.

Plus, all of us want to see the same result - justice for Caylee. There is comfort in such company.

:blowkiss: you are very kind!

 

[Pattymarie]

Has there been any answer to the reason why no one responded to Casey's "flurry" of phone calls on June 16th. I just find that so strange. When my (adult) kids try to reach me at work and I can't pick up....per the ringer and caller ID, I still can tell that they called me and get back to them asap. They also would probably text me which I can usually see immediately. There is just no reason in the world why they couldn't get a response from me fairly quickly. This gaping hole in this part of the case bothers me.

Was Casey in an emergency and desperately trying to call her folks? (But not 911) Or was she calling around, knowing they wouldn't/couldn't pick up to a.) make sure they weren't on there way home or b. ) leave a pretend phone trail.

Just bothers me......

 

[tehcloser]

Here is a thought....Cindy said in one of her jailhouse visits something about "why didn't SHE get back to get the car?" So when Cindy made the 911 call about the smells like a damn .... were they already concocting a story that maybe zanny had the car too and for whatever reason they could not go with it?

 

[SoCalSleuth]

Not true. Negligent homicide could be the charge. That is, an accident could have been prevented if Casey had been paying more attention to her daughter than the computer and cell phone.

"Homicide" is a conveniently broad term.

Not true. You're referring to a criminal charge (and it's actually called manslaughter not negligent homicide) as opposed to an ME's findings. Not the same. The ME did not rule the manner of death "a negligent homicide". She ruled it a homicide. If she had ruled it a negligent homicide, LE would have to have the indictment changed. They haven't done so.

 

[Blaise]

It would not surprise me one bit.

"Members of the jury! We submit to you that our client *did not* perform these online searches to kill her child. She was planning to kill her mama!"

I think you might be right. I don't see how JB can use it. He cannot be that dumb.

Blaise (Can he?)

 

[Chess613]

I don't think we'd be so focused on the pool if it weren't for the fact that 31 days later the As remember the gate being open and the ladder down....how 31 days later they remember it's that exact date is beyond me...

I think Cindy made a statement that it was on the 17th of June that she noticed the gate open and the ladder attached to the pool. Can someone correct me if i'm wrong?

What's interesting about the Anthony's changing statements is that there's an arc to the embellishments. I basically take everything Cindy Anthony said to LE the week of July 16th and before to be true and honest. Everything afterwards is embellishment, as she tries to preserve the Anthony name and tries to protect her daughter. The 911 call and the admission that "it smells like there's been a dead body in the damned car" - even the first 911 call where she's basically reporting Casey stealing money and the car, she only mentions Caylee missing afterward. It appears to me Cindy already instinctly knew something was wrong and Casey was responsible. She gets emotional when Casey (though Lee) admits Caylee has been missing for a month. I think Cindy knew something was wrong the week of the Fourth of July - that week, she calls one of Casey's male friends and tells him Casey is a sociopath; she then posts the massive myspace posting lamenting Caylee is gone and directly indicates Casey is jealous of their closeness. I think once she gets the confirmation that Caylee is gone and Law Enforcement is involved, reality sets in and - just like Casey - Cindy begins to embellish and changes her story to avoid embarrassment and perhaps pretend everything is ok with the family (once Caylee is home, everything will be fine). At least we know where Casey gets it from.

As far as the shaking theory is concerned - very plausible. But, considering we're now dealing only with skeletons, we'll never know if that happened or not. I don't think a prosecutor can argue that without clear-cut evidence, which just isn't there. And it's still neglect, whether Casey shook her or whether she chatted away while Caylee drowned.

 

[ibyoungr]

She could be right about this:

(respectively snipped)
Originally Posted by KellioPSL
kc was zanaxing caylee, on 6/06 she goes to fusion, she tells ah and ric that her boss sent her there to check on daughter ric states that she showed up at his apartment at around 11:30 that night, with caylee and they spent the night. Earlier when kc was at fusion who was watching caylee ? She was zanaxed and in the trunk of the car. (I wonder if le asked ric if caylee was only wearing a diper when kc brought her in the apartment) kc zanaxed caylee numerous times between 6/1 and 6/16. I'm sure there was a fight on the 15th but it is irrelevant, I'm sure there were alot of fights. The 16th of June, the call from the a's home to kc's cell was probably to tell kc to get up and come out of her room and take care of her daughter. I believe ga did see kc and caylee leave at 12:50, but they didnt go far, they were right by the a's home waiting for ga to go to work, after ga left they came back. kc then leaves the a's house heading toward tones, she starts making phone calls ga ca ah, she was trying to get someone to watch caylee. Then it looks like she stops somewhere on the way to tone's. she stopped probably took caylee's sipee cup that had juice in it, and crushed up a zanax in it, she waited then for her to go to sleep, took caylee's clothes off, and put her in the trunk. Off to tone's and leaves her car in the parking lot with Caylee in the trunk asleep, this time was different though, she either had chloroform in a container in her trunk or spilled some in her trunk, anyway because of the chloroform there was no oxygen and caylee was probably dead before she even got to tone's. I bet that she checked on her sometime that evening and knew that she was dead. I dont think she did this on purpose but when kc zanaxed her that was felonious assault and death during the comission of felonious assault is 1st degree murder. So date of death imho was early evening on june 16th. (thank you Joyce for pointing out the ping info for the 16th and thank you bondjamesbond for idea of what all the calls were about that aftrenoon)

The bolded part above is written as if it is a fact. What evidence is there to lead to this? I believe Caylee was with Grandma that week of June 6th as CA was on vacation. Zanex is highly addictive. I took a half a pill once and that much would in the long wrong do damage that would be visible. I just do not believe she was using Zanex because Caylee would NOT be the happy and healthy little girl we see in the video THE DAY BEFORE. She would be a whining, upset and wanting another dose of Zanex. I will stick with a quick suffocation with the pillow from the bedroom and a the following coverup.

 

[ibyoungr]

Respectfully snipped...

Try this on for size: It wasn't Caylee she thought about murdering in March.

I agree... I think she was wanting to kill her mother and father...