Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #4

[kikid]

Welcome along.

Beware I have not been here that long. It can be very addictive.

Your "running over" theory is very plausible. Not one I have seen before, so you have managed come up with a good possibility.
There are several other "accident" notions eg pool accident, left in hot car, over medicated etc.
What puts me off all of them is that KC would be in her element if she reported an accident. She could, and would, make up a story, certainly excusing herself, and blaming others. She could play the grieving Mom and injured party. I think in fact she killed Caylee in a rage and then contemplated staging an accident (eg in pool).
With all that has happened, I would have expected KC to own up to an accident by now?

thanks for the welcome! I have not read all of the threads here yet, so I may be lacking some basic info too. I thought cadaver dogs had hit on the trunk and the yard, but had never heard of them hitting inside the house. IMHO that would rule out some things like drowning in the tub, over medicated and died during nap, or being beaten to death. Of course, as I said I haven't read all of the info yet and they could have found indications of death inside.

I thought the quote was perhaps very telling. She said her dad maybe "Ran over something" to explain the awful smell in her car. She didn't say "Ran over an animal" or "Hit an animal", but "ran over something".

Of course the other theory is plausible as well (as many many are), she could have left her sleeping in the car in the garage.... if the vehicle was on and garage door down - or even the garage door open and the vehicle off (heat).

I wonder if there had been any cases of mothers being convicted & sentenced to serious prison time down there in a similar situation of leaving a child in a hot car???? If she'd heard stories on the news, this might make her less likely to dial 911 upon discovering her baby dead. ?? just another theory to add to the extensive list.

 

[Rumpole]

thanks for the welcome! I have not read all of the threads here yet, so I may be lacking some basic info too. I thought cadaver dogs had hit on the trunk and the yard, but had never heard of them hitting inside the house. IMHO that would rule out some things like drowning in the tub, over medicated and died during nap, or being beaten to death. Of course, as I said I haven't read all of the info yet and they could have found indications of death inside.

I thought the quote was perhaps very telling. She said her dad maybe "Ran over something" to explain the awful smell in her car. She didn't say "Ran over an animal" or "Hit an animal", but "ran over something".

Of course the other theory is plausible as well (as many many are), she could have left her sleeping in the car in the garage.... if the vehicle was on and garage door down - or even the garage door open and the vehicle off (heat).

I wonder if there had been any cases of mothers being convicted & sentenced to serious prison time down there in a similar situation of leaving a child in a hot car???? If she'd heard stories on the news, this might make her less likely to dial 911 upon discovering her baby dead. ?? just another theory to add to the extensive list.

You should have a look thru some threads.

One good reference is the Floor Plan thread. I started that so am blatantly biased. The thread is a lot of trying to sort things out, so just need to go to the end page and see the latest Floor Plan. It shows spots where the Cadaver dogs "hit" etc.

Also there are threads and polls of where WSers think Caylee died, in house or car etc, and an older poll of what room she might have died in. Don't know if you want to see what others think before, or after you decide for yourself?
Happy Sleuthing

 

[kikid]

You should have a look thru some threads.

One good reference is the Floor Plan thread. I started that so am blatantly biased. The thread is a lot of trying to sort things out, so just need to go to the end page and see the latest Floor Plan. It shows spots where the Cadaver dogs "hit" etc.

Also there are threads and polls of where WSers think Caylee died, in house or car etc, and an older poll of what room she might have died in. Don't know if you want to see what others think before, or after you decide for yourself?
Happy Sleuthing

Will definitely check them out! thanks!! There is so much info to read through here, haven't gotten very far yet.

 

[hornswoggled]

I'm not defending nor am I trying to justify what happened to Caylee. I feel that her death was unintentional, perhaps accidental. I do not know how it happened, but I do suspect an overdose of some kind. And I feel it wasn't the first time a drug was used on Caylee. Casey was putting Caylee at risk with her selfish lifestyle.

I do not think that Casey is a planner by any stretch of the imagination. I do not think this death was a premeditated event. There were too many panic-induced scenarios that seem to be evolving. Borrowing a shovel, going to the back yard to hide her, then that didn't work out. Putting her body in the car trunk. Well that didn't work out so well either. I feel that she really didn't know what in the world to do. The ONE thing that she was sure of........she wouldn't tell a soul, no matter what.

I think she didn't count on just how much body fluid is produced by a decomposing body. Perhaps the fluid escaped out the mouth and nose, the path of least resistance and thereby she used duct tape to hold the fluid in. We may never know what hell Casey went through trying all alone to decide what to do with her daughter's body. Sheer panic. She let too much time pass and told too many lies to back up and tell the truth. The heart sticker was Casey's way of saying "I didn't mean for this to happen, I'm sorry". It's not much, but it's all she could muster.

I think the disposing of the body where she did was also a hasty decision provoked by Lord only knows what. If Caylee's death had been premeditated, she would have picked a more remote location, thought out well in advance. All she could think to do - was run and hide - and lie as she had always done to cover her tracks. After two or three weeks, it seemed to be working for her. So, she used the same old worn-out lie over and over. "She's fine. She's with the Nanny".

Casey is in a very bad place right now. The only thing that would serve her well is the truth. But with attorneys determined to get her off, she will not be able to tell the truth at all. She's stuck. She's angry because her parents can't get her out of this one. The one little person who loved her no matter what - is gone from her life. Perhaps one day, she just might get a glimmering of just how much she was loved.

 

[Devon]

I'm not at all convinced that GA's recollection of the events of June 16 is accurate. I think it's more likely that he was recalling what happened on June 9, a date that was initially firmly fixed in CA's mind (and subsequently in GA's) as the last date either of them had seen Caylee, and a date on which KC and Caylee did in fact spend the night away from the house - at RM's.

I really don't accept that he could have recalled any particular day that was at least a month past, in so much detail as he appears to have done with June 16, particularly in respect of what KC and Caylee were wearing/carrying and what was said between them. If it had been a significant day in any other respect, one might expect to have certain particular memories, but there is no evidence that, for GA at least, Monday June 16 was anything other than a normal day and of no particular significance at the time. He was not privy to the alleged fight of the evening before, and it's quite likely that he was told very little, if anything, of the details. Also, the items of Caylee's found in the car/at the disposal site do not match his descriptions of her clothes and backpack.

So.......if we take out of the equation his testimony about that day, this leaves us with some alternative possibilities for the chain of events that may have happened. We know that KC was most likely at home throughout the night/early morning of 15/16 and there appears to be PC activity by her during both the morning and afternoon of the 16th, with various breaks in that activity. The first is around Caylee's likely breakfast/getting washed/dressed time. The 2nd is around 1 o'clock, when it is still possible that KC went out with Caylee for a while in order to perpetuate the 'going to work' story, but it may not be true that she stated any intention of staying elsewhere that night with Caylee.

I have thought that maybe they didn't leave the house at all, but instead KC put Caylee down to sleep and carried on with her phone chats/PC use. But that wouldn't explain why the Mama doll was left in the car, unless it wasn't strictly true that Caylee wouldn't go anywhere without it, in which case it could have been left there from a previous car trip. Or it means that Caylee was in the car at some point on that date. Whether or not it's true that Caylee was so firmly attached to the doll is of great significance IMO, because if so, it's unlikely that she would have electively left it behind, meaning that she must have been either asleep or otherwise not conscious when she was taken out of the car.

As to what happened to her that day, I haven't any firm theories, but there's a few things I just don't think are likely. First, I don't think she died (however caused) overnight, because GA was at home on weekday mornings, there's no evidence (yet) that he went anywhere that morning, and it's just not feasible that he wouldn't query KC's obvious presence in the house, but with no visible 'alive' Caylee. I also can't see KC secreting a dead Caylee anywhere in the house with GA around.

I also don't believe it's necessarily true that KC planned to go and see AL that evening, much less stay overnight. It was a Monday, there was no Fusion, nor any evidence of any other event happening (they ended up renting videos) and also it was supposed to be college as usual for AL the following day, although he ended up staying home with KC, apparently not a preplanned decision. I think she pitched up there unexpectedly, and only because she needed to hide from her parents.

I'm still not convinced that there was any intent, malice, motive or planning involved in Caylee's death. It's easy to weave together the known clues and evidence to fit, if you start from a belief that KC did murder Caylee, but there are still far too many assumptions that have to be built into those theories to make them plausible IMO.

I haven't ruled out a killing that occurred during a loss of control by a tired/upset/angry/frustrated KC, and I still think an accident is possible, but to explain her behaviour afterwards, it has to have been due to some negligence or fault on her part, either perceived or actual.

To all those who say that they are 'certain' that they would never harm their child even if they were pushed to the brink, all I can say is you have to actually have been teetering on the edge of that abyss, either physically, emotionally or psychologically before you can be sure that your grip on self-control wouldn't fail you. It does happen, to all sorts of people, including those who would never otherwise, consciously or deliberately, hurt any living thing.

 

[Rumpole]

I'm not at all convinced that GA's recollection of the events of June 16 is accurate. I think it's more likely that he was recalling what happened on June 9, a date that was initially firmly fixed in CA's mind (and subsequently in GA's) as the last date either of them had seen Caylee, and a date on which KC and Caylee did in fact spend the night away from the house - at RM's.

I really don't accept that he could have recalled any particular day that was at least a month past, in so much detail as he appears to have done with June 16, particularly in respect of what KC and Caylee were wearing/carrying and what was said between them. If it had been a significant day in any other respect, one might expect to have certain particular memories, but there is no evidence that, for GA at least, Monday June 16 was anything other than a normal day and of no particular significance at the time. He was not privy to the alleged fight of the evening before, and it's quite likely that he was told very little, if anything, of the details. Also, the items of Caylee's found in the car/at the disposal site do not match his descriptions of her clothes and backpack.

So.......if we take out of the equation his testimony about that day, this leaves us with some alternative possibilities for the chain of events that may have happened. We know that KC was most likely at home throughout the night/early morning of 15/16 and there appears to be PC activity by her during both the morning and afternoon of the 16th, with various breaks in that activity. The first is around Caylee's likely breakfast/getting washed/dressed time. The 2nd is around 1 o'clock, when it is still possible that KC went out with Caylee for a while in order to perpetuate the 'going to work' story, but it may not be true that she stated any intention of staying elsewhere that night with Caylee.

I have thought that maybe they didn't leave the house at all, but instead KC put Caylee down to sleep and carried on with her phone chats/PC use. But that wouldn't explain why the Mama doll was left in the car, unless it wasn't strictly true that Caylee wouldn't go anywhere without it, in which case it could have been left there from a previous car trip. Or it means that Caylee was in the car at some point on that date. Whether or not it's true that Caylee was so firmly attached to the doll is of great significance IMO, because if so, it's unlikely that she would have electively left it behind, meaning that she must have been either asleep or otherwise not conscious when she was taken out of the car.

As to what happened to her that day, I haven't any firm theories, but there's a few things I just don't think are likely. First, I don't think she died (however caused) overnight, because GA was at home on weekday mornings, there's no evidence (yet) that he went anywhere that morning, and it's just not feasible that he wouldn't query KC's obvious presence in the house, but with no visible 'alive' Caylee. I also can't see KC secreting a dead Caylee anywhere in the house with GA around.

I also don't believe it's necessarily true that KC planned to go and see AL that evening, much less stay overnight. It was a Monday, there was no Fusion, nor any evidence of any other event happening (they ended up renting videos) and also it was supposed to be college as usual for AL the following day, although he ended up staying home with KC, apparently not a preplanned decision. I think she pitched up there unexpectedly, and only because she needed to hide from her parents.

I'm still not convinced that there was any intent, malice, motive or planning involved in Caylee's death. It's easy to weave together the known clues and evidence to fit, if you start from a belief that KC did murder Caylee, but there are still far too many assumptions that have to be built into those theories to make them plausible IMO.

I haven't ruled out a killing that occurred during a loss of control by a tired/upset/angry/frustrated KC, and I still think an accident is possible, but to explain her behaviour afterwards, it has to have been due to some negligence or fault on her part, either perceived or actual.

To all those who say that they are 'certain' that they would never harm their child even if they were pushed to the brink, all I can say is you have to actually have been teetering on the edge of that abyss, either physically, emotionally or psychologically before you can be sure that your grip on self-control wouldn't fail you. It does happen, to all sorts of people, including those who would never otherwise, consciously or deliberately, hurt any living thing.

I think it is usefull to at least down play any reliance on the GA testimony. Though one thing I would suggest MIGHT be a plus indicator for GA testimony is that within days after he might have been already trying, for his own sake, to remember the "last time" he saw Caylee, and so remember details. (perhaps correctly or perhaps confused with other cccasions).
Since KC did turn up at AL's without Caylee, she must have been already dead or alive and hidden away. The trunk? Certainly not being looked after by a one armed imaginary Nanny?
I have trouble with KC 's demenour with AL whatever the truth about Caylee is, but even more than for other possibilities I can not believe Caylee had just been killed in an accident?
The more I see the Video shop evidence, the more I think Caylee must have still been alive at that time? (At the least KC thought she was alive)

 

[gardenhart]

Hello, I'm new here and this is my first post - so bear with me if anything I say may have been suggested elsewhere on the forum.

First of all, I don't think the death was premeditated - there is nothing to be gained from the death of her daughter, not even freedom actually as her mother & father would have jumped at the chance to get custody or adopt their granddaughter.

I think you are on the mark about the garage. According to the WS Calendar on June 25th "Casey tells Amy about the smell in her car; that maybe George ran over something when he used the car. (AH interview, pg. 16, line 21 through pg. 17, line 3)".

This got me thinking that perhaps Casey was getting some clothes and things together that afternoon (16th) to get away from her mom for a bit to let things settle down after their big blowup. And maybe she is stressing and freaking out and very emotional and not keeping track of her baby girl. And maybe she gets everything loaded in the trunk (laundry bags of clothes, garbage bags of stuff - some things maybe not belonging to her??) and hops in the car to leave... and runs over little Caylee while backing out.

Of course most people would call an ambulance asap, but we are talking about a thief and compulsive liar here, not a normal person. So she calls and calls her family members. When she can't get them, she places her inside what is handy in her trunk right there..... maybe she quickly buries her temporarily or places it somewhere in "Hiding" until she can figure out what to do.

Her life was like a house of cards and her mother was at an end with her at this point, she probably figured this would have been more than she could forgive her for, not to mention all of the lies would start crashing down and she might have to face some type of responsibility for her actions.

Her entire life was a lie, so it makes some kind of sick sense to just make up a kidnapping, and everything else ... building on the fantasy she'd been living for two years.

I see no indication that Cindy and George would have jumped at the chance to take custody. In fact, Cindy had told coworkers that the therapist suggested that and she couldn't afford it.

Also, according to court documents, Cindy had been pressuring Casey lately about taking more responsibility for Caylee.

I think it's perfectly plausible that Casey wanted freedom, wanted to get back at her mother, was jealous of Caylee, flew into a rage - any number of motives or perhaps all of them.

Nor do I believe if Caylee's death was anything other than murder even Casey wouldn't have eventually admitted it was an accident rather than face life in prison or the death penalty.

 

[kikid]

I'm still not convinced that there was any intent, malice, motive or planning involved in Caylee's death. It's easy to weave together the known clues and evidence to fit, if you start from a belief that KC did murder Caylee, but there are still far too many assumptions that have to be built into those theories to make them plausible IMO.

I haven't ruled out a killing that occurred during a loss of control by a tired/upset/angry/frustrated KC, and I still think an accident is possible, but to explain her behaviour afterwards, it has to have been due to some negligence or fault on her part, either perceived or actual.

I agree with this. Also the explanation for her behavior after is explained if we look at how KC dealt with situations in her past. KC was super duper good at ignoring the reality of a situation, keeping secrets, and pretending things were "normal".

1. How long did it take before anyone noticed she was pregnant? I've read something about she didn't know she was pregnant for some time.... seems her family went along with this and never realized she was pregnant either.

2. KC gets fired, but for two years she pretends she is still working. This isn't delusion its fantasy, secret keeping, and putting on appearances.

3. A tragic accident, probably due to her negligence, happens to Caylee but instead of acting in the way most people would, she actually reacts completely typical for herself and just pretends it didn't happen. Just another horrible secret she must keep.

This is probably a girl who has kept many horrible and tragic secrets all her life. Her family goes along too, heck they are the ones who taught her how to keep secrets so well, lie to cover up things or "Protect" people she loved & herself, and to avoid being held accountable.

editing to add:

also, everyone keeps saying duct tape was around caylee's mouth... is this stated by police? or is it simply stated tape around the skull? I've thought she probably put it over Caylee's eyes rather than mouth - when moving her she couldn't stand to look into her open eyes so placed tape to close them. just a thought - if police haven't said it was covering the mouth.

 

[Rumpole]

I agree with this. Also the explanation for her behavior after is explained if we look at how KC dealt with situations in her past. KC was super duper good at ignoring the reality of a situation, keeping secrets, and pretending things were "normal".

1. How long did it take before anyone noticed she was pregnant? I've read something about she didn't know she was pregnant for some time.... seems her family went along with this and never realized she was pregnant either.

2. KC gets fired, but for two years she pretends she is still working. This isn't delusion its fantasy, secret keeping, and putting on appearances.

3. A tragic accident, probably due to her negligence, happens to Caylee but instead of acting in the way most people would, she actually reacts completely typical for herself and just pretends it didn't happen. Just another horrible secret she must keep.

This is probably a girl who has kept many horrible and tragic secrets all her life. Her family goes along too, heck they are the ones who taught her how to keep secrets so well, lie to cover up things or "Protect" people she loved & herself, and to avoid being held accountable.

editing to add:

also, everyone keeps saying duct tape was around caylee's mouth... is this stated by police? or is it simply stated tape around the skull? I've thought she probably put it over Caylee's eyes rather than mouth - when moving her she couldn't stand to look into her open eyes so placed tape to close them. just a thought - if police haven't said it was covering the mouth.

I think if a tragic "accident" happened, KC would behave exactly like KC. She would be in her element. Making up a story, spinning the fact about how she was the heroine, valiantly trying to help, blaming other people for the accident. That stuff is day to day stuff for KC. If there was an accident she would have welcomed and embraced it. It would free her of any responsibilities. It would make her the grieving "Tot Mom". Publicity and no doubt money for the story. If an accident had happened she would have loved it. I think she spent 2 or three days trying to make the death LOOK like an accident. That is exactly what she wanted. I don't think she was that "Lucky". It was was not an accident.

 

[kikid]

I think if a tragic "accident" happened, KC would behave exactly like KC. She would be in her element. Making up a story, spinning the fact about how she was the heroine, valiantly trying to help, blaming other people for the accident. That stuff is day to day stuff for KC. If there was an accident she would have welcomed and embraced it. It would free her of any responsibilities. It would make her the grieving "Tot Mom". Publicity and no doubt money for the story. If an accident had happened she would have loved it. I think she spent 2 or three days trying to make the death LOOK like an accident. That is exactly what she wanted. I don't think she was that "Lucky". It was was not an accident.

see I see her as a person who avoids. she avoids everything, especially conflict. After the falling out with her mother and being told she was a bad mother, for caylee have a fatal accident would have meant complete conflict with her family. She avoided that reality instead by pretending it never happened.

I understand and respect your opinion otherwise, these are just my thoughts & impressions of the situation.

If she wanted away from caylee so bad as to kill her, why keep her body in the car so long the car stunk of death? why place her body where she buried her beloved pets? why not rid herself of body fast and far away from the home / crime scene?? I think there was attachment, grief, guilt & shame. Just because we haven't personally witnessed it on t.v. doesn't mean it never occurred.

 

[Rumpole]

see I see her as a person who avoids. she avoids everything, especially conflict. After the falling out with her mother and being told she was a bad mother, for caylee have a fatal accident would have meant complete conflict with her family. She avoided that reality instead by pretending it never happened.

I understand and respect your opinion otherwise, these are just my thoughts & impressions of the situation.

If she wanted away from caylee so bad as to kill her, why keep her body in the car so long the car stunk of death? why place her body where she buried her beloved pets? why not rid herself of body fast and far away from the home / crime scene?? I think there was attachment, grief, guilt & shame. Just because we haven't personally witnessed it on t.v. doesn't mean it never occurred.

She avoided nothing ultimately. I think if there was even half a chance of an accident story, we would have heard it.

 

[kikid]

She avoided nothing ultimately. I think if there was even half a chance of an accident story, we would have heard it.

that is the truth, ultimately she will avoid nothing. Knowing her MO (taking police to Universal, walking them inside the building & down a hall.... before finally admitting to them she didn't work there), tells me she may break after being sentenced to death (if then) or right before they stick the needle in her arm.

I'm not saying I don't think she is all screwed up, I think she is, but I just don't see any degree of planning here, only reacting - and lies to cover her own guilt or shame.

of course I could be completely wrong. :crazy:

 

[Devon]

see I see her as a person who avoids. she avoids everything, especially conflict. After the falling out with her mother and being told she was a bad mother, for caylee have a fatal accident would have meant complete conflict with her family. She avoided that reality instead by pretending it never happened.

I understand and respect your opinion otherwise, these are just my thoughts & impressions of the situation.

If she wanted away from caylee so bad as to kill her, why keep her body in the car so long the car stunk of death? why place her body where she buried her beloved pets? why not rid herself of body fast and far away from the home / crime scene?? I think there was attachment, grief, guilt & shame. Just because we haven't personally witnessed it on t.v. doesn't mean it never occurred.

I agree that KC has been avoiding admitting the truth to her parents at all costs. I believe that once CA had persuaded KC to have and keep Caylee, that baby became a family 'enterprise', a joint endeavour. She was mothered by both KC and CA, and CA and GA invested very heavily into the job of raising Caylee, both financially and emotionally. I found a couple of KC's comments very telling. First that she told LE her mother would never forgive her if anything happened to Caylee, and also her comment in one of the jail videos about how Caylee was not just her baby, but was also CA's and GA's as well.

I think she could not, and still cannot, admit to any blame for Caylee's death, whatever her level of culpability, because she knew that once they found out Caylee was dead they would be heart-broken, and if they knew it was her fault in any way, she would never be forgiven, and no matter how much CA might like us to believe that this is not the case, I believe any hope of a decent relationship between this mother and daughter would be (and will be) lost forever.

 

[kikid]

I agree that KC has been avoiding admitting the truth to her parents at all costs. I believe that once CA had persuaded KC to have and keep Caylee, that baby became a family 'enterprise', a joint endeavour. She was mothered by both KC and CA, and CA and GA invested very heavily into the job of raising Caylee, both financially and emotionally. I found a couple of KC's comments very telling. First that she told LE her mother would never forgive her if anything happened to Caylee, and also her comment in one of the jail videos about how Caylee was not just her baby, but was also CA's and GA's as well.

I think she could not, and still cannot, admit to any blame for Caylee's death, whatever her level of culpability, because she knew that once they found out Caylee was dead they would be heart-broken, and if they knew it was her fault in any way, she would never be forgiven, and no matter how much CA might like us to believe that this is not the case, I believe any hope of a decent relationship between this mother and daughter would be (and will be) lost forever.

i agree.

 

[hornswoggled]

I agree that KC has been avoiding admitting the truth to her parents at all costs. I believe that once CA had persuaded KC to have and keep Caylee, that baby became a family 'enterprise', a joint endeavour. She was mothered by both KC and CA, and CA and GA invested very heavily into the job of raising Caylee, both financially and emotionally. I found a couple of KC's comments very telling. First that she told LE her mother would never forgive her if anything happened to Caylee, and also her comment in one of the jail videos about how Caylee was not just her baby, but was also CA's and GA's as well.

I think she could not, and still cannot, admit to any blame for Caylee's death, whatever her level of culpability, because she knew that once they found out Caylee was dead they would be heart-broken, and if they knew it was her fault in any way, she would never be forgiven, and no matter how much CA might like us to believe that this is not the case, I believe any hope of a decent relationship between this mother and daughter would be (and will be) lost forever.

I am in agreement. I also find another comment of hers very telling. It was when she was being interviewed by LE officers the second time at Universal.

LE: Did Zenaida give you any money that day?
KC: No. I would not have sold my daughter. If I wanted to really just rid of her, I would have left her with my parents and I would have left. I would have moved out. I would have given my Mom custody.

I believe she really didn't want to "just get rid of her" or she simply would have turned over custody to her parents. She was inconvenienced by Caylee and I believe she may have started drugging her with whatever and it turned into something far worse than Casey could have ever imagined. She didn't know what to do but cover up and lie. She couldn't face her family.

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

Snipped from Devon: But that wouldn't explain why the Mama doll was left in the car, unless it wasn't strictly true that Caylee wouldn't go anywhere without it, in which case it could have been left there from a previous car trip. Or it means that Caylee was in the car at some point on that date. Whether or not it's true that Caylee was so firmly attached to the doll is of great significance IMO, because if so, it's unlikely that she would have electively left it behind, meaning that she must have been either asleep or otherwise not conscious when she was taken out of the car.


I've never thought about how the doll might play into that day.

I think there is a huge probability that KC pretended to go to work at 12:50 (KC stalling as long as possible knowing GA would be leaving soon and juggling Caylee's ever approaching naptime).

KC put Caylee in the car and drove around the corner or a few blocks away while Caylee fell asleep (very reasonable given Caylee's age and the time of day). Much easier to stall and drive around the neighborhood for a bit with an asleep Caylee.

KC returns to the A's home after GA has left and she carries Caylee into the house and puts her in bed (AH has verified that Caylee was a deep and heavy sleeper so transferring her probably was easy).

The Mama doll was left in the carseat.

At some point in the afternoon, KC kills Caylee and puts her into a laundry bag that is in the vicinity. She carries her to the trunk to hide her.

In the next 3 days, the fluids leak through the hamper bag so KC backs her car into the A's garage and bags in her a trashbag, attempts to clean car with several different cleaning agents (creating chloroform residue), and then dumps the body on her way out of the neighborhood.

I don't think we will ever know how she killed Caylee (sort of like how we don't know how Scott P killed Laci!). I think it was a "soft kill" of some sort (smothering, strangulation, overdose of meds) or being left in the hot car (which would change above theory of transferring a napping Caylee into the house but the doll would still be left in the carseat!).

 

[kikid]

Snipped from Devon: But that wouldn't explain why the Mama doll was left in the car, unless it wasn't strictly true that Caylee wouldn't go anywhere without it, in which case it could have been left there from a previous car trip. Or it means that Caylee was in the car at some point on that date. Whether or not it's true that Caylee was so firmly attached to the doll is of great significance IMO, because if so, it's unlikely that she would have electively left it behind, meaning that she must have been either asleep or otherwise not conscious when she was taken out of the car.


I've never thought about how the doll might play into that day.

I think there is a huge probability that KC pretended to go to work at 12:50 (KC stalling as long as possible knowing GA would be leaving soon and juggling Caylee's ever approaching naptime).

KC put Caylee in the car and drove around the corner or a few blocks away while Caylee fell asleep (very reasonable given Caylee's age and the time of day). Much easier to stall and drive around the neighborhood for a bit with an asleep Caylee.

KC returns to the A's home after GA has left and she carries Caylee into the house and puts her in bed (AH has verified that Caylee was a deep and heavy sleeper so transferring her probably was easy).

The Mama doll was left in the carseat.

At some point in the afternoon, KC kills Caylee and puts her into a laundry bag that is in the vicinity. She carries her to the trunk to hide her.

At some point, in the next 3 days, the fluids leak through the hamper bag so KC backs her car into the A's garage and bags in her a trashbag, attempts to clean car with several different cleaning agents (creating chloroform residue), and then dumps the body on her way out of the neighborhood.

I don't think we will ever know how she killed Caylee (sort of like how we don't know how Scott P killed Laci!). I think it was a "soft kill" of some sort (smothering, strangulation, overdose of meds) or being left in the hot car (which would change above theory of transferring a napping Caylee into the house but the doll would still be left in the carseat!).

yes the garage is important as some of the previous posts talk about.

I've also considered why all the frantic (unanswered) calls to her family members if she intentionally killed the child? Surely an accident would explain this better.... until she realizes Caylee is gone and there is no use calling anyone. Or even if there was an accident calling and trying to find out when everyone is going to be home, to know how much time she had to figure out what to do?

I can see the flurry of calls in those two situations, in the event she intentionally harmed her - i can't see her hanging out and making all the calls.

after that window of opportunity to tell her family what happened passed... she slipped into automatic which is to avoid responsibility, blame, and conflict and to lie cheat steal or whatever to assist her in her avoidance.

 

[publius]

I think she could not, and still cannot, admit to any blame for Caylee's death, whatever her level of culpability, because she knew that once they found out Caylee was dead they would be heart-broken, and if they knew it was her fault in any way, she would never be forgiven, and no matter how much CA might like us to believe that this is not the case, I believe any hope of a decent relationship between this mother and daughter would be (and will be) lost forever.

I agree with some of this. But really, how afraid of CA was she really? Did she really care if CA would never forgive her? Sure she paid lip service to so much, but her actions, before and after Caylee's death do not add up.

I mean, she blatantly stole from CA over a long period of time. She blatantly stole from CA's family. If she was so scared and worried about CA's forgiveness (and perception of her), why would she treat CA like such sheet all the time? She told CA the most fantastic lies without a second thought as to the consequences or how they would effect CA. Yet, somehow she is afraid of her or worried about her forgiveness? According to LP (although he may not be the best source) KC ran that house, not CA. Doesn't sound like someone who is scared or worried about forgiveness...

I don't buy it. I think she liked to blame her actions (or inaction) on other people, and CA was the preferred (and perfect) target. In this light, she can never tell what really happened to Caylee, not through any fault of her own, but because of someone else (i.e., CA). In addition I believe, in KC's mind, Caylee died as a direct result of something CA did or didn't do. So really, KC (again, in her mind) has nothing to ask forgiveness for. If anything, CA should be asking for forgiveness from her (KC)!

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

yes the garage is important as some of the previous posts talk about.

I've also considered why all the frantic (unanswered) calls to her family members if she intentionally killed the child? Surely an accident would explain this better.... until she realizes Caylee is gone and there is no use calling anyone. Or even if there was an accident calling and trying to find out when everyone is going to be home, to know how much time she had to figure out what to do?

I can see the flurry of calls in those two situations, in the event she intentionally harmed her - i can't see her hanging out and making all the calls.

after that window of opportunity to tell her family what happened passed... she slipped into automatic which is to avoid responsibility, blame, and conflict and to lie cheat steal or whatever to assist her in her avoidance.

I think the "flurry of calls", IMO, is KC calling to see where everyone is, to see when people will be home, to cover her butt for why she and Caylee won't be home that night.

She went into a manic state and probably didn't want to be "alone". Who knows who she was talking to as she applied duct tape or pushed her into a laundry bag, you know?? Talking to people probably made that situation "easier"......like it wasn't happening. She was, as posters above said and I completely agree with, AVOIDING what was really going on.

The calls might also be an alibi.... "Hi Mom, I just got a call, have to work late, Zanny said we could crash at her place, won't be home tonight, dont' worry about the fight last night".

 

[Devon]

I agree with some of this. But really, how afraid of CA was she really? Did she really care if CA would never forgive her? Sure she paid lip service to so much, but her actions, before and after Caylee's death do not add up.

I mean, she blatantly stole from CA over a long period of time. She blatantly stole from CA's family. If she was so scared and worried about CA's forgiveness (and perception of her), why would she treat CA like such sheet all the time? She told CA the most fantastic lies without a second thought as to the consequences or how they would effect CA. Yet, somehow she is afraid of her or worried about her forgiveness? According to LP (although he may not be the best source) KC ran that house, not CA. Doesn't sound like someone who is scared or worried about forgiveness...

I don't buy it. I think she liked to blame her actions (or inaction) on other people, and CA was the preferred (and perfect) target. In this light, she can never tell what really happened to Caylee, not through any fault of her own, but because of someone else (i.e., CA). In addition I believe, in KC's mind, Caylee died as a direct result of something CA did or didn't do. So really, KC (again, in her mind) has nothing to ask forgiveness for. If anything, CA should be asking for forgiveness from her (KC)!

I agree that KC appears to be unafraid of CA, and that she blatantly stole from all and sundry, but IMO this behaviour had been so long condoned and excused by CA that she thought it didn't matter too much. I think the relationship between KC and CA was a very enmeshed and interdependent one, each accusing and blaming the other and yet needing each other emotionally, but not in a healthy way.

As to whether KC is blaming CA for Caylee's death, if it was an accident, she could well hold CA responsible in some way. If the pool ladder was left out, who left it there? If there were hazardous household substances or medications within Caylee's reach, or any other form of hazard in the house that day, who was responsible? It was KC's responsibility to watch and care for Caylee, but I can quite see her mentally offloading some blame of that sort onto CA.