Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #4

[Forensic fan]

[COLOR="SeaGreen" Unless you have something you'd like to get off your conscience lol (J/K!) JMO[/COLOR]

Nope, I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it and they can't prove a thing! ( I think that is what Bart Simpson used to say) :crazy:

 

[TxMother67]

sedatives and Chloroform
next would be smothering.

Chloroform then smothered

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

After watchng the video yesterday, & the look on Cindy's face, with her hands up to her mouth, it was the look of someone seeing Horror for the first time....she was watching & listening to KC & it was a look of disbelief. Why then, after this visit & KC's subsequent release from jail, does she goes right back to, 100% belief that KC did nothing to harm Caylee?

I'm back to the pool theory:waitasec: (I can hear the groans) What if KC, while she is home, admits to Cindy that Caylee did in fact climb the stairs & drown in the pool. I know Kline had asked on a different thread, that KC would have had to put up the ladder!

On the night of June 15th, when there was an argument, supported by the latest docs., pg 2499 from Mark F. to LE, & Cindy tells LE that she & Caylee were swimming in the pool that evening. KC comes home & the altercation begins.......If it was as heated as it has been reported, it would be easy to understand that it was Cindy who forgot to put the ladder away. This would explain why KC was not worried about Caylee, (on June 16th) whilst texting & working on the computer, as she knows she didn't attach the ladder. Now, Cindy feels guilty & becomes complicit in & has no choice, but, to stick with the runaway story, that at this point cannot be altered. Each know it was not deliberate, & feel they are victims of circumstance, of a horrible tragedy! Possible??

That's a good theory!

 

[bogeygal]

sedatives and Chloroform
next would be smothering.

Makes sense to me. Plans in advance. What would the odds be for Caylee to die accidentally in the pool or in the car when she was on the computer?

We can't forget the web searches prior to Caylee's death. Too much coincidence if if was accidental.

 

[Lovejac]

After watchng the video yesterday, & the look on Cindy's face, with her hands up to her mouth, it was the look of someone seeing Horror for the first time....she was watching & listening to KC & it was a look of disbelief. Why then, after this visit & KC's subsequent release from jail, does she goes right back to, 100% belief that KC did nothing to harm Caylee?

I'm back to the pool theory:waitasec: (I can hear the groans) What if KC, while she is home, admits to Cindy that Caylee did in fact climb the stairs & drown in the pool. I know Kline had asked on a different thread, that KC would have had to put up the ladder!

On the night of June 15th, when there was an argument, supported by the latest docs., pg 2499 from Mark F. to LE, & Cindy tells LE that she & Caylee were swimming in the pool that evening. KC comes home & the altercation begins.......If it was as heated as it has been reported, it would be easy to understand that it was Cindy who forgot to put the ladder away. This would explain why KC was not worried about Caylee, (on June 16th) whilst texting & working on the computer, as she knows she didn't attach the ladder. Now, Cindy feels guilty & becomes complicit in & has no choice, but, to stick with the runaway story, that at this point cannot be altered. Each know it was not deliberate, & feel they are victims of circumstance, of a horrible tragedy! Possible??

No groans from me! Your explanation covers all these odd behaviors of G & A. I think this is very possible.

 

[reeseeva]

As I've posted ad infinitum, not only possible... IMO probable. It has long been my theory as well that this is likely why there is a mutually shared secrecy because there is mutually shared blame. JMO2!!

Telling words Kiki, "Casey would never HARM Caylee"

 

[suspicious1]

After watchng the video yesterday, & the look on Cindy's face, with her hands up to her mouth, it was the look of someone seeing Horror for the first time....she was watching & listening to KC & it was a look of disbelief. Why then, after this visit & KC's subsequent release from jail, does she goes right back to, 100% belief that KC did nothing to harm Caylee?

I'm back to the pool theory:waitasec: (I can hear the groans) What if KC, while she is home, admits to Cindy that Caylee did in fact climb the stairs & drown in the pool. I know Kline had asked on a different thread, that KC would have had to put up the ladder!

On the night of June 15th, when there was an argument, supported by the latest docs., pg 2499 from Mark F. to LE, & Cindy tells LE that she & Caylee were swimming in the pool that evening. KC comes home & the altercation begins.......If it was as heated as it has been reported, it would be easy to understand that it was Cindy who forgot to put the ladder away. This would explain why KC was not worried about Caylee, (on June 16th) whilst texting & working on the computer, as she knows she didn't attach the ladder. Now, Cindy feels guilty & becomes complicit in & has no choice, but, to stick with the runaway story, that at this point cannot be altered. Each know it was not deliberate, & feel they are victims of circumstance, of a horrible tragedy! Possible??

I never thought about that but it is very possible. Maybe KC feels she did not kill Caylee because CA was the one who left the ladder out, therefore blaming CA and not herself. Not "mom made me do it" but "mom did this, she is the one who left the ladder out." In one of the jailhouse tapes KC says "IT"S NOT MY FAULT!" and CA says "well whose fault is it? You're blaming ME that you're sitting in jail?"

 

[reeseeva]

I never thought about that but it is very possible. Maybe KC feels she did not kill Caylee because CA was the one who left the ladder out, therefore blaming CA and not herself. Not "mom made me do it" but "mom did this, she is the one who left the ladder out." In one of the jailhouse tapes KC says "IT"S NOT MY FAULT!" and CA says "well whose fault is it? You're blaming ME that you're sitting in jail?"

Good Point!! KC was not ready to explain, was not gulity, she was a victim of circumstance only! Her only crime was the coverup... and I have this strong feeling, that given her arrogance, KC felt Caylee was hers, and she would decide what necessary steps had to be taken. Just thinking out loud?

 

[kathyn2]

I think she drugged her (chloroform) and smothered her or choked her so I didn't vote. I also think she did it on purpose.

 

[kathyn2]

I think KC did use the pool too but not to kill her. To pretend she drowned in it but then thought better of that idea for some reason and took her out again. No way did she accidently die in there. Perhaps she chloroformed her and then dumped her in the pool to kill her since she was knocked out cold. What a vile human being she is!

 

[kiki the parrot]

Telling words Kiki, "Casey would never HARM Caylee"

Yes. Perhaps should add that where my theory may have differed somewhat is that I've never thought it was a spoken thing, but long said in this scenario there likely would've been some sort of silent or implicit understanding between them... This family seems to operate in secrecy. And I've posted that whereas CA may have realized she neglected to replace the ladder, it also obviously fell to whomever was home ultimately to serve as the "barrier" (in the absence of any real ones) and KC was also undoubtedly warned and instructed many times about checking b4 allowing Caylee into the backyard. CA early on dismissed the possibility of a drowning which I found strange. Then, during latest jailhouse video where she makes a cursory mention (re LE or media speculating about a drowning) it's almost in passing--then is just as swiftly, glibly, cooly shot down by her smiling daughter, (Surprise, surprise...") Because they each may bear guilt or feel partially to blame, it would follow that neither can point a finger at the other w/out to some extent implicating herself. JMO

 

[Who_What_When]

Makes sense to me. Plans in advance. What would the odds be for Caylee to die accidentally in the pool or in the car when she was on the computer?

We can't forget the web searches prior to Caylee's death. Too much coincidence if if was accidental.

I don't know. I still lean more toward it being an accident. To me, her actions afterwards just don't add up to it being intentional. If she was planning this all along I would think that she would have had everything all thought out but she acted as if she was just winging it and let it play out as if she knew that she would eventually have to answer to it. Did she really think that this would go on forever and that she wouldn't eventually have to produce Caylee?

When she stole the checks from Amy how was she planning to explain to that? She had to know that she would get caught since she signed her name on the checks. I don’t think she cared that Amy was going to know, or about anything for that matter.

As for the searches, I admit this is one thing that makes me wonder if it was intentional, but then again, this could be explainable. The documents don't show what led to these searches (on her computer) which I think is crucial in determining her mind set at the time. She could have been searching chloroform because of the picture that (Tony?) had. What if she didn't know what chloroform was and searched it, which led to how it's made, etc. The shovel never made sense to me as I can’t see why anyone would perform a search for a shovel even if they killed someone. As for the neck breaking, I have a hard time thinking of any plausible reason to search that, but it would really be helpful to see what led to each search. JMO

 

[Who_What_When]

Good Point!! KC was not ready to explain, was not gulity, she was a victim of circumstance only! Her only crime was the coverup... and I have this strong feeling, that given her arrogance, KC felt Caylee was hers, and she would decide what necessary steps had to be taken. Just thinking out loud?

Good points!

 

[Who_What_When]

After watchng the video yesterday, & the look on Cindy's face, with her hands up to her mouth, it was the look of someone seeing Horror for the first time....she was watching & listening to KC & it was a look of disbelief. Why then, after this visit & KC's subsequent release from jail, does she goes right back to, 100% belief that KC did nothing to harm Caylee?

I'm back to the pool theory:waitasec: (I can hear the groans) What if KC, while she is home, admits to Cindy that Caylee did in fact climb the stairs & drown in the pool. I know Kline had asked on a different thread, that KC would have had to put up the ladder!

On the night of June 15th, when there was an argument, supported by the latest docs., pg 2499 from Mark F. to LE, & Cindy tells LE that she & Caylee were swimming in the pool that evening. KC comes home & the altercation begins.......If it was as heated as it has been reported, it would be easy to understand that it was Cindy who forgot to put the ladder away. This would explain why KC was not worried about Caylee, (on June 16th) whilst texting & working on the computer, as she knows she didn't attach the ladder. Now, Cindy feels guilty & becomes complicit in & has no choice, but, to stick with the runaway story, that at this point cannot be altered. Each know it was not deliberate, & feel they are victims of circumstance, of a horrible tragedy! Possible??

This could be possible and it would make a lot of sense, but if it happened this way, then why would Cindy call 911 thirty one days later? Her call doesn't seem staged and actually seems to indicate Casey.

 

[Kat]

I thought it was very interesting that when CA brought up that someone had told her that Caylee was dead, and that Caylee had drowned in the pool (I can't remember the exact words)

KC says "surprise surprise" with a look on her face that I can't quite identify.

 

[reeseeva]

This could be possible and it would make a lot of sense, but if it happened this way, then why would Cindy call 911 thirty one days later? Her call doesn't seem staged and actually seems to indicate Casey.

IIRC, Cindy noted the ladder to the pool being attached, as well as the pool's chemical box being moved on June 17th, & recall reading in the latest Docs., that she called George, yelling at him. He told her he hadn't put up the ladder. This was early on, & they thought nothing of it. After CA's 911 call & KC's arrest on July 16th, they were trying to put the pieces together & remembered that date. Cindy had no idea when she called 911, there was any connection.

Of course, this is just a theory, but with all the confusion on June 15th, big blow-out, not accepting KC's call the next day, the 16th, she would be so worked up & not notice that maybe the ladder was never taken away on Sunday, June 15th, when She went swimming with Caylee.

 

[Who_What_When]

IIRC, Cindy noted the ladder to the pool being attached, as well as the pool's chemical box being moved on June 17th, & recall reading in the latest Docs., that she called George, yelling at him. He told her he hadn't put up the ladder. This was early on, & they thought nothing of it. After CA's 911 call & KC's arrest on July 16th, they were trying to put the pieces together & remembered that date. Cindy had no idea when she called 911, there was any connection.

Of course, this is just a theory, but with all the confusion on June 15th, big blow-out, not accepting KC's call the next day, the 16th, she would be so worked up & not notice that maybe the ladder was never taken away on Sunday, June 15th, when She went swimming with Caylee.

I wasn't thinking about her not knowing when she called. I thought you meant that she knew what happened back in June. Sorry! Now I understand It's definetly is something to think about and would explain some of CA's actions.

I just don't know if I buy that Cindy or George were involved, to me their jailhouse videos with Caylee seem like they don't believe her and are really searching for answers (although they would never admit her guilt, IMO).

 

[archenemy toenail]

I always thought this was directed toward Cindy. "Remember the words spoken" is the fight they had, "With great power comes consequence", the consequence was Cindy losing Caylee, Casey gave her a grand child but took her away, etc.

I have always interpreted her blog post in that way, also. To me it always sounded like Casey was marveling at her own power to give and take away and the loneliness created by possessing such power. The blog post by Cindy also says something along the lines of Caylee being "taken away" from her out of jealousy, so I wonder if those were the words that were used by Cindy when texting and calling Casey after the 15th. I imagine that Cindy was accusing Casey of taking Caylee away from her, and perhaps even during the fight on the 15th Cindy threatened to take Caylee away from Casey, using those words.

My theory is that Casey killed Caylee in a fit of rage that night, whether with chloroform or by smothering or whatever, I don't know, but I believe that this was a crime of passion, and I think that her reckless behavior afterward and failure to convincingly cover up the crime was one part due to her general laziness and disorganization, one part last hurrah, and one part a desire for her parents to know what she did and feel her power. I think that she continues to lie because her narcissistic ego won't allow her to humiliate herself by telling LE or anyone else what they want to hear and because she still holds out hope of getting away with this (though maybe a part of her doesn't even actually care what happens from here on out). After watching the new jail video last night, I think she's getting a real kick out of watching her parents be torn between the obvious truth (that their daughter killed their granddaughter) and their continued support is making her power high last so much longer.

Anyway, this is my first post, hi, and I've rambled longer than I intended to. My point is that I think she's torn between saving herself and wanting her parents, and everyone else, to know what she did, and I base that basically on my interpretation of that one blog post.

 

[Asker]

This scenerio, has played out in my mind many times...
With all information from your work & JamesBondJames, there is only 30 mins. between the call from George to her call to Tony @3:35pm. This is why the premeditation doesn't work for me. We know that there was an argument on the 15th, which is substantiated in the Docs., Supplemental Report, Pg 2499, by Mark F to LE. The basis of that argument stemmed from Cindy's visit on Father's Day, & her conversation with her mother about the checks, & her mother's admonition to throw KC out. I think this was building & festering with Cindy on the ride home & she finally unleashes all of this on Casey, coupled with her being an irresponsible & unfit mother to Caylee & believe it was a huge blowout. Considering this with her all-night activity with TL (very little sleep) & combined with feelings of worthlessness, it explains, why, if an accident did occur, she could not face the fact that her mother was right. If this had been injected into KC's mind over & over again & then it actually happened, here is the Self-Fullfilling Prophecy manifested into reality! I think we can all relate to some incident in life where we've seen this occur, & it is Shocking! Maybe, if this unfortunate set of circumstances had happened without the assault from the previous night's altercation, her course of action after the fact, may have been different.

I think you were on target right up until you got to the part about Cindy being so hard on Casey and that having any real impact on Casey's sense of self. I believe it was Cindy who was never hard enough on Casey...always allowing her to get away with her fantastic tales probably for many, many years and I see no reason why Casey wouldn't just figure her mother was on another rant and it would pass in a day or so like usual.

I believe the fight did indeed happen on the evening of June 15th. I believe Cindy probably in anger laid out her plans to have Casey declared an unfit mother and take Caylee away from her. *This* would have really been the last straw for Casey. I believe she is a classic narcissist of the worst stripe. Once again all the attention is on Caylee, Caylee, Caylee. Narcissists *need* to be the total focus of *all* attention at *all* times.

Now Casey's mother is focusing on Caylee's needs over and above Casey's wants and needs and Casey just can't have that anymore. Narcissists don't view other people as human beings in their own right. To narcissists other people exist in the world *only* as Narcissistic Supply (attention suppliers) for the narcissist. Caylee is always getting in the way of Casey...hogging up all the attention that Casey believes she *alone* is entitled to.

Also, narcissists play cruel and manipulative mental games with other people. One of their favorite games is "Keep Away." This game involves withholding whatever it is that another person values or wants most. For Cindy that "something" is obviously Caylee and Cindy made that *very* clear during the June 15th fight. Doing that was like waving a red flag under a bull's nose.

Casey immediately (in her "spiteful b*tch" mode) decided she would withhold what her mother wanted most in life...Caylee. At the same time Casey didn't want the bother of caring full time for Caylee nor did she want Caylee to continue to consume the Narcissistic Supply (attention) Casey believed was her due *alone.* I think that is the point where premeditation (way beyond the computer searches earlier) came into play. Getting rid of Caylee would serve two great purposes for Casey

1) revenge on her mother and really, really hurting her mother and more importantly

2) retrieving the Center of Attention Status Casey believed was her birth right by getting rid of the "little distraction."

Because Casey lives only 10 minutes at a time and can't think more than 10 minutes ahead in time, she didn't have a good plan for how to get away with murder. She just had an urge or an itch and she scratched it and everything else was done on the wing, thinking and planning as things came up or 10 minutes at a time.

I think Casey killed Caylee at home sometime during the night of June 15th or the early morning of June 16th. Possibly she suffocated Caylee with a pillow. I think the duct tape may have been to keep Caylee quiet during the suffocation "just in case" Caylee could scream out. I don't believe the kidnapping plan had even been formulated in Casey's attention deficited mind at that time. That came later.

I think the chloroform found in the trunk possibly was the result of the decomp. I don't believe Casey is smart enough to make chloroform and even if she was, I don't believe she has the patience to do it. Again, she only thinks 10 minutes ahead at a time and probably making chloroform requires a longer attention span than that.

 

[kiki the parrot]

As for the searches, I admit this is one thing that makes me wonder if it was intentional, but then again, this could be explainable. The documents don't show what led to these searches (on her computer) which I think is crucial in determining her mind set at the time. She could have been searching chloroform because of the picture that (Tony?) had. What if she didn't know what chloroform was and searched it, which led to how it's made, etc. The shovel never made sense to me as I can’t see why anyone would perform a search for a shovel even if they killed someone. As for the neck breaking, I have a hard time thinking of any plausible reason to search that, but it would really be helpful to see what led to each search. JMO

(respectfully snipped, bold mine) ITA w bolded!

I thought it was very interesting that when CA brought up that someone had told her that Caylee was dead, and that Caylee had drowned in the pool (I can't remember the exact words) KC says "surprise surprise" with a look on her face that I can't quite identify.

Yes I posted re this and the fact there might be shared silence ie both equally willing to avoid blaming or avoid pointing the finger at the other--if there was shared responsibility. JMO