Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #5

[songline]

Actually I have long had some questions or doubts about the exact chain of events on the 16th, or what GA really saw that day.

Also keep in mind KC really does appear to not operate the way the rest of us do. She will boldly BS her way through anything, and does not seem squeemish when she does it. remember leading the cops into Universal Studios to go to her office? She does not sneak, she does not hide, she boldly does things in plain sight in such a way that noone questions.

I think Caylee died either very late June 15th or very early morning June 16th. I think what GA saw leaving that day was KC carrying Caylee's already dead body out under the guise of carrying a sleeping child to the car to go to the nanny's. She just picked up the body, wrapped in in a blanket, maybe with her oft mentioned sunglasses on, and carried it through the house past her father to the car. Waving good bye as she went.

I think George saw Caylee after she died twice, but only came to realize that much later. Once when KC carried her out of the house on the 16th, and once as a mysterious laundry bag in the car trunk the day of the gas can incident.

The issue I have with GA seeing Casey carry out a dead Caylee is:
Casey is such a great lier, and actress that she could have easily screamed OH MY GOD!!!! MA,,, DAD HELP!
she did not have to carry the baby out at all. She was that good at doing things in open view.

 

[cecybeans]

I still kind of think that Casey and Caylee were shut up in a room (either Casey's or Caylee's) on the night of June 15th. Perhaps Cindy had a few words with her about the stealing from ggpa/ggma (for the second time). Perhaps Cindy was pissed off that Casey dropped Caylee off to be taken to Mt. Dora (maybe after she begged her) and had to be called back (from TonE's) upon their return. Or perhaps Cindy said something about the fact that it was Father's Day and did she get GA a present. If you backdate the Ryan P. comment about Cindy calling him, speaking to him about Casey, telling him to stay away from her because she was a sociopath, according to Ryan this conversation happened relatively within this date. You don't go from calling your daughter a "sociopath" to her friends to the "Mother of the Year" very quickly.

Also, I totally do not buy that Cindy tucked her girls into bed that night as she has claimed. I also suspect why she was pausing outside the closed bedroom door to listen to "breathing" before she went to work on June the 16th. Why not just open the door? Was the door locked?

I further question why we have not heard about Caylee's movements on June 16th. We've heard detailed explanations about EVERYTHING ELSE in this case, including imaginanny's imaginary car wreck, imaginary injuries, etc. But when it comes to what was perhaps Caylee's last day on the planet all we get is vague at best. Then when Morgan tried to ask GA about that day he went all extreme and did not want to answer any of the questions. Why? He tried to make it like Morgan wanted to steal his last memories of Caylee.

What time did Caylee get up that morning? What did she have for breakfast? What did she do? What was in her backpack?

The more they protest the more suspicious I become (ex: see stories about the gas can, smell in the trunk, the Nanny, the bedding, etc.).

It's an excellent point that we really have no reliable evidence of anything that occurred on the 16th (or the night of the 15th for that matter). It all comes from CA and GA's mouths and was given to LE weeks after the fact, certainly when they had enough time to think of what would be most reasonable. I think at this juncture, seeing how fast and loose they play with the truth and spin things to their own advantage, we can pretty much question the credibility of anything they say or look for a motive in why they might have said it.

I always doubted anything GA said that had too much detail (descriptions of the morning of 16th, the gas can incident, picking up the car, the ladder left by the pool, the Nigerian scam) and wondered if they were calculated to try to exonerate KC or at least introduce reasonable doubt. To be objective we have to construct a continuum of scenarios which range from none of them happened at all, to some parts happened, to they are all true.

What makes me think that KC may have left the 15th is that the story of them walking out the door on 16th is so incredibly detailed but NOTHING ELSE is described. As you observe, no mention is made of Caylee getting up, eating breakfast, playing or absolutely anything at all. GA goes into exquisite detail about them allegedly walking out of the house to go to the nanny's (careful to keep within KC's "I dropped her off between 9 and 1 scenario) but there is not a single mention of any of the rest of the morning, as if he either was completely occupied doing something else and never saw them, or it DIDN'T HAPPEN AT ALL.

Same with CA's verification they were both at the house because she heard them "breathing" before she left in the morning. I'm sorry, but unless they both KC and Caylee snored, there is no way a person would hear two people breathing through a closed bedroom door, that sounds like fabricated plausible deniability to me.

If we might assume that GA and CA provide detailed information most particularly when they want to plant "evidence" and know that they falsify stories as quickly as their daughter (even if it sounds more belabored), then we should assume for convenience that anything they offered LE with a high degree of detail is automatically suspect and may be simulated data. We have to not only be careful not to base our assumptions on their testimonies, but perhaps assume ourselves that those portions are simply fabricated backfill.

I guess, in a "backwards kinda way" - looking at physical evidence first - ping charts, computer activity, etc. - and starting out with the assumption that what GA and CA may be FALSE - we could construct various scenarios of what happened or did not happen based on that logic first and work our way from there.

 

[eddeva]

I don't think she knows if George saw her or not. She may have just rushed through the room with Caylee and left without saying anything. KC and George weren't on the best of terms around that time so I doubt there were kisses and hugs like he said. Probably not a word between them.

She didn't want to say something that wouldn't match what George said in his statement. She probably gave her statement first to LE. She didn't know what George would say in his statement but knew he would give some time between the hours of 9-1. Rather than lock herself into a lie, she gave a time range. That way, if George said 10:30...she's didn't lie. If he said 11:15, she didn't lie.

If he saw her leave and she said goodbye, etc., they would both give the same time, the truth. Her statement wouldn't be as broad as it was. The thing is, I think she tried to slip by him and doesn't know if he saw her or not (he may have been in the kitchen, bedroom?). For this reason, she had no idea what he would say in his statement. Would he give the true time because he saw her or would he make up a time or would he say he didn't see her? I think this is why she gave the 9am-1pm timeframe.

The 9am to 1pm time frame has always bothered me. Why would she not know exactly when she left and took her child to a babysitter.

Incidently, George almost missed the wide margin of error she gave him when he said 12:50.

thanks for taking the time to explain your idea marina, i appreciate it, and i agree that there weren't likely to have been hugs and kisses that morning. actually they don't strike me as the kind of people to have hugs and kisses at any time.

 

[Jess1985]

Without doing a seach....Does anyone know if the reports on the condition...whether or not there had been any trauma to the body??

TIA

 

[cecybeans]

Without doing a seach....Does anyone know if the reports on the condition...whether or not there had been any trauma to the body??

TIA

There was no body, just scattered skeletalized remains. IIRC, the ME said there was not evidence of antemortem trauma to the bones, given the limitations of the autopsy under the circumstances. But there is naturally no evidence of any possible trauma to the soft tissue because it was not there to be tested.

 

[KenoshaKid]

Without doing a seach....Does anyone know if the reports on the condition...whether or not there had been any trauma to the body??

TIA

Medical Examiner stated there was no "ante-mortem trauma" to the bones.
Since there was essentially only bones left, that was all she could comment on regarding any trauma.

 

[natsound]

I believe the only reason that George and Cindy told the truth about the odor of death in the car, is because it was something they couldn't lie about.

One, or probably both of them, did spend some serious time trying to cover-up/remove that horrendous smell, but found it just wasn't possible.

The tow-yard employee also had first-hand knowledge of the reeking car. And, George knew this.

By the time the authorities were finally called, much effort had been put into the hopeless elimination of that odor, to no avail.

Hence, Lee's statement that he arrived at his parent's home to find Casey's car in the garage with all it's windows rolled down, and doors wide open. Lee said the smell was very powerful, and just kept "coming at you in waves". Remember, Lee witnessed this airing out of the car, hours after George drove it home from the tow yard with all the windows rolled down, and after the car had been 'hyper-cleaned'.

If George and Cindy could have eliminated that odor of decomposition from the car, they would never have mentioned it to a living soul... and definitely not to the authorities. They had to tell the truth about the smell because it was something they couldn't get rid of, though they tried.They also hadn't yet thought up their 'pizza' angle.

There's no evidence CA and GA scrubbed and scrubbed the car out, right? That's your hypothesis? I ride the fence on that one. I just think something to that effect would have been mentioned in a doc dump about the trunk if it were true. The cleaner would have still been in the air... do you suppose that's where the chloroform came from?

I'll have to go back and watch the entire police interview with GA, but I didn't get the feeling he mentioned the death odor because he had to. I get the feeling that he just simply could not reconcile that odor being his dead granddaughter. I think he was in that much denial.

 

[songline]

Without doing a seach....Does anyone know if the reports on the condition...whether or not there had been any trauma to the body??

TIA

Only a skeleton was found if there was any flesh I am sure they would have a tie to a murder.
But sadly it was only a skeleton and they can not assess from bones unless bones are broken if there was any trauma.

 

[songline]

There's no evidence CA and GA scrubbed and scrubbed the car out, right? That's your hypothesis? I ride the fence on that one. I just think something to that effect would have been mentioned in a doc dump about the trunk if it were true. The cleaner would have still been in the air... do you suppose that's where the chloroform came from?

I'll have to go back and watch the entire police interview with GA, but I didn't get the feeling he mentioned the death odor because he had to. I get the feeling that he just simply could not reconcile that odor being his dead granddaughter. I think he was in that much denial.

SMART BLOND did not say anywhere that they scrubed and scrubed.
But natsound Yes there is evidence that they cleand up:
they cleaned pants and a knif that they admited...IMHO ther must have been more that they threw in the wash.
They lie like champions and when Lee came home he saw that all the windows and door to the car were opend....

SO...it is OK for you to think that GA did not mention the oder because he had to.
Mr Ex LE is so calculated that Most of the people surly dont think he was going to mention it if there was no reason at all. :bang:
If there is nothing in it for them. It will not be said. unless they get mixed up and lie.
It was said because he is an ex LE and he does know how to play LE like a fiddle :boohoo:

 

[eddeva]

Yes there is evidence that they cleand up

*resp. snipped.
at this point we've all read easily hundreds of pages of discovery and in my case it's all starting to blur so let me apologize in advance if my memory on this subject is wrong - didn't LE find no fingerprints either on the exterior or the interior of the trunk? now we know george opened and closed the trunk b/c the towyard manager was standing beside him when he did it. someone at some level cleaned that car after it left the towyard.
again, if i'm wrong about the fingerprint evidence i'm sorry.

 

[ThoughtElf]

To be fair, with VERY irregular times for "events", it might be a bit hard to remember back a month to a particular day?
Except the ONE DAY your daughter was taken from you might be something you remembered every last detail about?

PS Since KC claimed to be a professional "Organiser" where are her files, time sheets, whatever. Her work diary planner etc?

On the missing BlackJack, of course.

 

[Rumpole]

On the missing BlackJack, of course.

Yea right!

Things get so silly, so quickly if you just take one step down the "If KC's story is true" road!

 

[songline]

*resp. snipped.
at this point we've all read easily hundreds of pages of discovery and in my case it's all starting to blur so let me apologize in advance if my memory on this subject is wrong - didn't LE find no fingerprints either on the exterior or the interior of the trunk? now we know george opened and closed the trunk b/c the towyard manager was standing beside him when he did it. someone at some level cleaned that car after it left the towyard.
again, if i'm wrong about the fingerprint evidence i'm sorry.

You are totaly correct, I wish they did have finger prints.
But you selected to snip one line when the following line explains a bit more.
That is not right IMO

Did Cindy say she washed knife, pants and GA threw out garbage. YES
Did Lee say he came home and all the windows and door to the car were open - YES

The car was picked up and brought back and not even GAs finger prints were found.
hmmm. (did he wear gloves in the heat of JULY to drive?)
I wish there was much more but not even GA finger prins are on his own shed and gas tanks
and he said he did retreve them. HOW did he wear gloves then too? hmmm

like I said lots of hidden things but it is like a sweter that has a loose thread.
eventually it will unravel.
THE A'S cleand up and said they did but just a little....we know they lie...
Wish we did have more proof though....

If you have a better idea of how it got cleaned up...... I am all ears......

 

[eddeva]

You are totaly correct, I wish they did have finger prints.
But you selected to snip one line when the following line explains a bit more.
That is not right IMO

Did Cindy say she washed knife, pants and GA threw out garbage. YES
Did Lee say he came home and all the windows and door to the car were open - YES

The car was picked up and brought back and not even GAs finger prints were found.
hmmm. (did he wear gloves in the heat of JULY to drive?)
I wish there was much more but not even GA finger prins are on his own shed and gas tanks
and he said he did retreve them. HOW did he wear gloves then too? hmmm

like I said lots of hidden things but it is like a sweter that has a loose thread.
eventually it will unravel.
THE A'S cleand up and said they did but just a little....we know they lie...
Wish we did have more proof though....

If you have a better idea of how it got cleaned up...... I am all ears......

songline, i snipped your post for space. you had already made your point and so i saw no reason to repeat it in it's entirety, if this disturbs you then i am sorry. i didn't know you were sensitive about that. i at no time took issue w/ anything you said about the cleaning of the car so there is no reason to ask me 'if you have a better idea of how it got cleaned up...... i am all ears.....'
i was not arguing w/ you and having reread my post several times i cannot fathom why you think i was. i apologize for having upset you by not quoting your post in it's totality, i honestly didn't know this would be an issue for you.

 

[natsound]

SMART BLOND did not say anywhere that they scrubed and scrubed.
But natsound Yes there is evidence that they cleand up:
they cleaned pants and a knif that they admited...IMHO ther must have been more that they threw in the wash.
They lie like champions and when Lee came home he saw that all the windows and door to the car were opend....

SO...it is OK for you to think that GA did not mention the oder because he had to.
Mr Ex LE is so calculated that Most of the people surly dont think he was going to mention it if there was no reason at all. :bang:
If there is nothing in it for them. It will not be said. unless they get mixed up and lie.
It was said because he is an ex LE and he does know how to play LE like a fiddle :boohoo:

bold by me

Cleaning the pants and knife and cleaning out the trunk are two entirely different things. Also, the fact that the trunk and doors were open does not mean, or even suggest if you ask me, that the A's scrubbed the trunk or car out. Why would LA admit to police that the trunk/doors were open and the smell was coming at him in waves, if the A's had made a huge effort to clean out the car? If so, the smell of cleaner would have been coming at him in waves.

 

[Theonly1]

There's no evidence CA and GA scrubbed and scrubbed the car out, right? That's your hypothesis? I ride the fence on that one. I just think something to that effect would have been mentioned in a doc dump about the trunk if it were true. The cleaner would have still been in the air... do you suppose that's where the chloroform came from?

I'll have to go back and watch the entire police interview with GA, but I didn't get the feeling he mentioned the death odor because he had to. I get the feeling that he just simply could not reconcile that odor being his dead granddaughter. I think he was in that much denial.

Correct me if I am wrong, I thought Cindy said in one of her interviews that she febreezed everything in the trunk/car. Now, I don't know if she febreezed them after removing them or while they were still in the trunk/car. I would also assume that she cleaned all the items before she febreezed them. I am just looking at this logically that if something smells horribly bad you're going to clean it first and not just coat it in febreeze.

Fact: Cindy straight-up admitted to washing the pants. She also admitted to washing the knife from the trunk.

Fact: The Sunfire was shining like a new dime when it was sitting in the evidence bay. I'm sure it did not get that way sitting abandoned at the Amscot and then at the tow yard! Or maybe tow yards nowadays throw in a detailing service.

Fact: A neighbor saw the Sunfire when it got back home (on July 15th) sitting in the driveway or sidewalk area and opened up.

Fact: When Lee arrived at the home he said the Sunfire was in the garage.

Fact: When the police arrived at the house the Sunfire was also in the garage and no mention was made when THEY were on the scene about the "dead body" smell emanating from the car.

Fact: The items were removed from the car (knife, pants, etc.) and had to be collected separately from the police (i.e., not in the Sunfire when taken into evidence).

Fact: Anthony's threw away donated toys when Caylee first went missing because they "smelled of smoke" but what do they do with a car full of decomp stuff?

Fact: (Rewatch GA's interview with the FBI) GA tells the FBI about the stains in the trunk and the smell of decomposition. I remember him saying something about the size of the stain, the location of the stain in the trunk, the smell of the stain compared to the other stinks in the trunk, and I don't think he got all this information from simply opening the trunk one time and letting the tow driver toss out the garbage. Did he not say he put his head down and smelled the stain? Do you think he would take the Sunfire home (admittedly with the windows down the whole way) and NOT clean it up? To me, there are two choices, either you call the Police from the tow yard because your trunk and car reeks of decomp (and you know it) or you go home and clean it up.

Observation: The A's are neat-freaks, are they not? To me, their house is clean, their garage is clean and orderly, their backyard is clean (even if cluttered up with stuff), their appearance is clean, and so on.

I'm ASSuming they totally cleaned the car (over and above what they have admitted).

 

[natsound]

Correct me if I am wrong, I thought Cindy said in one of her interviews that she febreezed everything in the trunk/car. Now, I don't know if she febreezed them after removing them or while they were still in the trunk/car. I would also assume that she cleaned all the items before she febreezed them. I am just looking at this logically that if something smells horribly bad you're going to clean it first and not just coat it in febreeze.

Fact: Cindy straight-up admitted to washing the pants. She also admitted to washing the knife from the trunk.

Fact: The Sunfire was shining like a new dime when it was sitting in the evidence bay. I'm sure it did not get that way sitting abandoned at the Amscot and then at the tow yard! Or maybe tow yards nowadays throw in a detailing service.

Fact: A neighbor saw the Sunfire when it got back home (on July 15th) sitting in the driveway or sidewalk area and opened up.

Fact: When Lee arrived at the home he said the Sunfire was in the garage.

Fact: When the police arrived at the house the Sunfire was also in the garage and no mention was made when THEY were on the scene about the "dead body" smell emanating from the car.

Fact: The items were removed from the car (knife, pants, etc.) and had to be collected separately from the police (i.e., not in the Sunfire when taken into evidence).

Fact: Anthony's threw away donated toys when Caylee first went missing because they "smelled of smoke" but what do they do with a car full of decomp stuff?

Fact: (Rewatch GA's interview with the FBI) GA tells the FBI about the stains in the trunk and the smell of decomposition. I remember him saying something about the size of the stain, the location of the stain in the trunk, the smell of the stain compared to the other stinks in the trunk, and I don't think he got all this information from simply opening the trunk one time and letting the tow driver toss out the garbage. Did he not say he put his head down and smelled the stain? Do you think he would take the Sunfire home (admittedly with the windows down the whole way) and NOT clean it up? To me, there are two choices, either you call the Police from the tow yard because your trunk and car reeks of decomp (and you know it) or you go home and clean it up.

Observation: The A's are neat-freaks, are they not? To me, their house is clean, their garage is clean and orderly, their backyard is clean (even if cluttered up with stuff), their appearance is clean, and so on.

I'm ASSuming they totally cleaned the car (over and above what they have admitted).

1. I don't recall an interview where CA said she febreezed everything. Not saying it didn't happen.

2. Which neighbor saw the car in the driveway with the windows/trunk open?

3. I understand CA said she washed a knife and pants. But she didn't have to offer that information at all. Why would she purposely wash evidence to take away any traces of decomp, then tell police about it?

I still don't get a strong vibe, and I don't see any proof, that the A's scrubbed out the trunk.

 

[Theonly1]

1. I don't recall an interview where CA said she febreezed everything. Not saying it didn't happen.

2. Which neighbor saw the car in the driveway with the windows/trunk open?

3. I understand CA said she washed a knife and pants. But she didn't have to offer that information at all. Why would she purposely wash evidence to take away any traces of decomp, then tell police about it?

I still don't get a strong vibe, and I don't see any proof, that the A's scrubbed out the trunk.

1. That's how I remember it. But you can't pay me enough to go through all Cindy's interviews again! If you google "Cindy Anthony" and "febreeze" or "febreze" you can find articles and people mentioning that she said it (as I recall it from one of her interviews).

2. Brittany Schieber (see page 1247 of one of the earlier document dumps).

EE: And you observed Casey's car?
BS: Yes
EE: The white car?
BS: Yeah (affirmative)
EE: Well, sitting in the driveway you said with the trunk open?
BS: Yes sir.
EE: And grandma and grandpa were milling around the area, but they weren't, you didn't see anyone in the trunk?
BS: Correct.
EE: It's just sitting there open?
BS: Yes
EE: Shortly thereafter law enforcement responded?
BS: Yes

[So, the day that "law enforcement responded" grandma and grandpa were "milling around the area" but not physically IN the trunk (to her knowledge) with the Sunfire in the driveway with the trunk wide-arse open.]

 

[MAMABEAR]

LE knows about the "cover up".

 

[songline]

Correct me if I am wrong, I thought Cindy said in one of her interviews that she febreezed everything in the trunk/car. Now, I don't know if she febreezed them after removing them or while they were still in the trunk/car. I would also assume that she cleaned all the items before she febreezed them. I am just looking at this logically that if something smells horribly bad you're going to clean it first and not just coat it in febreeze.

Fact: Cindy straight-up admitted to washing the pants. She also admitted to washing the knife from the trunk.

Fact: The Sunfire was shining like a new dime when it was sitting in the evidence bay. I'm sure it did not get that way sitting abandoned at the Amscot and then at the tow yard! Or maybe tow yards nowadays throw in a detailing service.

Fact: A neighbor saw the Sunfire when it got back home (on July 15th) sitting in the driveway or sidewalk area and opened up.

Fact: When Lee arrived at the home he said the Sunfire was in the garage.

Fact: When the police arrived at the house the Sunfire was also in the garage and no mention was made when THEY were on the scene about the "dead body" smell emanating from the car.

Fact: The items were removed from the car (knife, pants, etc.) and had to be collected separately from the police (i.e., not in the Sunfire when taken into evidence).

Fact: Anthony's threw away donated toys when Caylee first went missing because they "smelled of smoke" but what do they do with a car full of decomp stuff?

Fact: (Rewatch GA's interview with the FBI) GA tells the FBI about the stains in the trunk and the smell of decomposition. I remember him saying something about the size of the stain, the location of the stain in the trunk, the smell of the stain compared to the other stinks in the trunk, and I don't think he got all this information from simply opening the trunk one time and letting the tow driver toss out the garbage. Did he not say he put his head down and smelled the stain? Do you think he would take the Sunfire home (admittedly with the windows down the whole way) and NOT clean it up? To me, there are two choices, either you call the Police from the tow yard because your trunk and car reeks of decomp (and you know it) or you go home and clean it up.

Observation: The A's are neat-freaks, are they not? To me, their house is clean, their garage is clean and orderly, their backyard is clean (even if cluttered up with stuff), their appearance is clean, and so on.

I'm ASSuming they totally cleaned the car (over and above what they have admitted).

:clap::clap::clap::clap:GREAT POST Theonly1.
Thanks for having a younger mind then I do and remembering.
Bottom line they cleaned but to our knowledge we do not know if they scrubed, but the words scubed and scrubed were not part of the post by Smart blond. I do not think people should be putting words in other posters mouth.