Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #6 (New Smoking Gun Theories for DP)

[travelgal]

Please forgive me for not looking this up right now, but didn't some poster persuasively argue recently that this type of duct tape is NOT very common and is either limited in distribution amount or area? I think the fact that this may be less common than we thought will definitely be a boon to the prosecution.

BTW, I know what you mean about being creeped out about shopping at home improvements stores. I can't go into the Lowe's anymore that is close to Drew Peterson's house because I'm afraid I'm gonna see a giant blue plastic barrel display or something and just totally freeze and pee my pants or something equally humiliating.

I seem to recall a WS Poster, Hercules Poirot, contacted the company and found out that there are less than 2000 rolls of that particular tape in circulation. I may not have all the facts correct but I will look for the link.

 

[Searchfortruth]

Coming in late to thread, my apologies if this has been discussed.

Was talking to my mom on the phone earlier about this. What about a recovered cell phone with incriminating messages? I have searched the forums for missing cell phone posts and couldn't come up with any...can not for the life of me remember what happened to the phone with the missing sim card, etc....what if KC carried another phone that was dropped at the Suburban site in a panic and later recovered...either by one of the PI's or by LE...

I don't think there was a phone with a missing SIM card, if you are referring to the blackjack Casey referred to in the beginning. Now when LE executed the search warrant on the A home in December they found several phones in Casey's room and several in Cindy and George's room and they took them. As of yet we have not heard about any results on these phones, but I think the analysis of these phones may be very enlightening.

 

[travelgal]

My two cents....In a case so high profile, when we know the FBI was already involved to some extent, I have to believe they have brought in an FBI profiler to look at this case. I imagine the expert testimony of this person may end up being your smoking gun. Here's why (according to books I have read on the subject):

1) A profiler will talk about the reasons children are kidnapped, since KC herself claimed Caylee was kidnapped. The reasons are:

a) sicko perverts who prey on children - overwhelming odds would make this person a white male with priors, not your trusted female babysitter with a family of her own.

b) someone who desperately wants a child, but can't have one for whatever reason - again, ZFG would not fit into this category

c) for ransom. Which would be, logically from someone who has money and/or a job, which KC had neither. Also, a person asking for ransom would make a ransom demand. Didn't happen in this case.


#2 The Heart Sticker

Profilers talk about several different aspects of a crime. In a murder, there are things that are present out of necessity - a gun or a knife, duct tape perhaps. They serve as tools for the criminal to commit the crime. Yet often, there are other things present that are not necessary - at least not on the surface. They are not necessary to commit the crime, but they are very necessary in that they fill a need for the killer. Think of a crime scene where the word "B#tch" is written in lipstick on a mirror, to use a cliche example. This action only serves to satisfy the killer, in this case, express his rage. This is where I think a profiler will go with the heart sticker. It's not necessary. Only to the killer would it have meaning and purpose. Yet, it doesn't speak of a killer who wanted to degrade his victim. To me, it more reminds me of a mother putting a "band-aid on a boo-boo." Momentary remorse, perhaps, but not true remorse, else the child would not have been discarded so carelessly.

Very interesting points, Irish_Eyes!! I agree that SA will have an FBI Profiler as an expert witness.
Great post! :clap::clap::clap:

 

[Eulalie]

bolded by me

I don't believe it can be proven that the duct tape was placed pre-death. The report says prior to decomp. It does not say "placed pre-death". Therefore the tape could have been applied after death in a "staging" effort, but prior to decomp actually beginning.

But if the medical examiner isn't convinced that the duct tape was placed pre-death, what medical evidence did she use to determine that this was a homicide?

I'm starting to think that we can use the homicide ruling to infer that the ME believes the tape was placed pre-death -- without the tape, what medical evidence is there of a homicide?

 

[Just Jayla]

You know thinking along these lines is it so impossible to believe that LA figured the spot out by himself but just couldn't make himself go there to check it out or to move Caylee. I am not so sure LA had made the decision to help KC to the point of him going down with her. He is her brother, he'd have to have known his little sister's neighborhood hide out wouldn't he? I never had an older brother but my guess would be yes. JMO

It is entirely possible, he might have even known about the pavers on his own, if they had been there a long time.

LA's knowledge alone, and finding the body, would not necessarily spell death penalty. BUT, if KC put something detailed enough in writing/on a computer that LA/someone else found, there's a smoking gun.

 

[Devon]

But if the medical examiner isn't convinced that the duct tape was placed pre-death, what medical evidence did she use to determine that this was a homicide?

I'm starting to think that we can use the homicide ruling to infer that the ME believes the tape was placed pre-death -- without the tape, what medical evidence is there of a homicide?

The ME stated that her opinion was based on all the available evidence - including autopsy findings, information from the disposal site and the circumstances surrounding the death.

It's important to remember, IMO, that a finding of 'homicide' encompasses not only murder but also manslaughter. A death resulting from the negligent act or omission of another would also be a homicide, so this determination does not exclude an accidental death for which someone bears some degree of blame.

 

[NocturnalLady]

True! I have to tell you, though, that I never have to use a tool to cut duct tape (and I use it a lot). I have a system to do it. I won't go into details, but I use fingers from both hands to start the tear and it rips quite smoothly.

If the first piece of duct tape got into Caylee's hair, the toddler never could have tried to remove it without great pain... it would pull the hair out by the roots. I envision a Casey in a rage constantly pulling pieces of duct tape and adding it... pure rage, nothing more. The first piece (assuming Caylee was alive), would cause the child to try and remove it. Casey puts on the next piece, the next piece, the next piece, until Caylee stops trying.

Several people have wondered a person could apply multiple layers of duct tape to a struggling, live child. Personally I think Casey could have easily gotten the first piece onto a sleeping Caylee, and perhaps even the second piece before Caylee even woke up. By then, if Casey was sitting on top of Caylee I doubt there would be much of a struggle. Many children of that age sleep very heavily. Caylee was probably done for before she even really woke up.

I don't think there is a single smoking gun in this case. However - someone else mentioned that LE had taken Casey's mattress for testing. What if there is human decomp on the mattress? I think the defense would have a hard time explaining any accident theory that could leave room for Caylee to leave decomp on the mattress. The only theory that would explain that - based on everything else we know about Casey's movements - is if Caylee were killed as she slept, in the evening and then lay on the mattress all night and most of the rest of the day while Casey waited for her father to leave the house.

ETA - Also, I think Casey did this crime in absolute cold blood after a period of rage. Casey is a sociopath. She is quite capable of going into a rage (maybe due to the fight with Cindy which included a physical assault and the exposure of major theft on Casey's part and probable threats of police action. Casey had also IMHO also been kicked out/pushed out of the home the week before due to Cindy trying out some tough love as she had been counseled to do by her therapist. I think this may also be the reason the A's initially said June 9th as the last day they had seen Caylee - this is the day she was kicked out of the house.) Anyhow, once Casey decided to kill Caylee her rage probably turned into a cold calm. She could then have cut off several pieces of duct tape PRIOR to applying any on Caylees face. Maybe she lined them up in the headboard of the bed. When I wrap Christmas presents I often tear of several pieces at once and stick one end on the edge of the table so that I can just grab the next strip as needed. I think Casey probably did it this way. As I said before, she probably got several pieces onto Caylee's face before she could even wake up. Then easily grabbed the pre-cut pieces one after the other with no problem at all.

I think we all hesitate to see Casey for the true monster that she is. If she is truly sociopathic then she pre-meditated this crime, did it in cold blood and probably sat and watched Caylee die with immense satisfaction. Easy peasey for her.

 

[Just Jayla]

IIRC, in Florida, capital murder can apply to the accused if there is child abuse involved or (maybe) victim is under a certain age.

Sooo, maybe the DP smoking gun is proof of abuse. "Proof" could be as simple as the tape over the mouth (pretty abusive), or as complicated as a witness or three asserting that KC verbally/physically abused Caylee repeatedly and could have gone too far. For instance, maybe LE dug a little more at RM about KC's treatment towards Caylee....Clint's girlfriend saw neglect, etc.

I do, however, think that the state has long planned to try the DP if it went to trial, I think they just gave KC time to come clean, probably in deference to GA/CA.

 

[Bittiness39]

I am just wondering what could have been left at the scene besides what we already know about...

 

[Eulalie]

The ME stated that her opinion was based on all the available evidence - including autopsy findings, information from the disposal site and the circumstances surrounding the death.

It's important to remember, IMO, that a finding of 'homicide' encompasses not only murder but also manslaughter. A death resulting from the negligent act or omission of another would also be a homicide, so this determination does not exclude an accidental death for which someone bears some degree of blame.

Thank you very much -- that helps clear up some of my confusion!

 

[debbie0604]

But if the medical examiner isn't convinced that the duct tape was placed pre-death, what medical evidence did she use to determine that this was a homicide?

I'm starting to think that we can use the homicide ruling to infer that the ME believes the tape was placed pre-death -- without the tape, what medical evidence is there of a homicide?

The medical evidence that points to a homicide is the objective fact that there was duct tape placed around Caylee's mouth and nose, and the fact that there were high levels of chloroform in her car. The medical examiner could only state, however, that the cause of death was "homicide by undetermined cause."

 

[debbie0604]

Thank you very much -- that helps clear up some of my confusion!

Oops sorry, didn't see that the question was already answered!! :bang:

 

[Bittiness39]

I personally think that KC left some sort of message with the baby's body. JMO. I think that to hypervilenate over remains when the car is already in LE's possession (which has shown Caylee was in the trunk for a while) something is making that little wench with the tramp stamp squirm. On that day. On that day (despite the fact that there were no other missing children reported in the area, despite the fact that LATER forensically they could link the laundry bag, garbage bags etc... to that house) the cops went right back to the A's. Meaning to mean that they found something that maybe was indicative of having belonged there (besides the WPB). Maybe they saw some kind of make shift memorial. LP mentioned a cross when he chose JBP to do his search that he helped pay for. What if she left her own grave marker there for Caylee...by she I mean KC...

 

[debbie0604]

note: This may belong on a different thread; if so, please relocate. Thanks!

(bold mine)

If the tape wasn't wound around Caylee's head, and if Caylee's hair was in a ponytail, how did so much hair (enough to secure the mandible in place post-decomposition) get stuck to the tape? I'm running the scenario in my mind and can't get a visualization.

Also, let's assume Caylee's hair was loose (no elastics or barrettes): in this case, wouldn't Caylee have to have been in an upright position (maybe strapped in her car seat?), rather than lying down, for that much hair to get caught in the tape? You WSers with long hair: don't you find that when you're lying down, your hair falls away from your face?

I need to go back and read the autopsy docs again - I'm just not able to figure this one out. I'd love some feedback here if you all have any to offer.

I have noticed in some of her pictures that Caylee's hair falls around her face when it is loose. Personally, my hair is long and when I lay down, it will sometimes still be around my face (my hair is also thick). I'm thinking that possibly Caylee's hair was not in a ponytail when she was duct taped.

I've wondered also why that book in her room was opened to that part about temper tantrums. What is that all about? Was Caylee in the middle of a tantrum and KC lost it with her and decided at that point that this was the time that she was going to go ahead and murder her? She was physically struggling with Caylee during that time, and held her down as she duct taped her? Who knows? I have ran that scenario through my mind as well but I do not like to dwell on it. It's too heartbreaking.

 

[countzero]

I personally think that KC left some sort of message with the baby's body. JMO. I think that to hypervilenate over remains when the car is already in LE's possession (which has shown Caylee was in the trunk for a while) something is making that little wench with the tramp stamp squirm. On that day. On that day (despite the fact that there were no other missing children reported in the area, despite the fact that LATER forensically they could link the laundry bag, garbage bags etc... to that house) the cops went right back to the A's. Meaning to mean that they found something that maybe was indicative of having belonged there (besides the WPB). Maybe they saw some kind of make shift memorial. LP mentioned a cross when he chose JBP to do his search that he helped pay for. What if she left her own grave marker there for Caylee...by she I mean KC...

I can't agree with the note. Then again I can.

Problem for KC and JB crew if she did. Huge mistake to quote KC, if she did and JB doesn't know about it yet. That would certainly put the JB crew into silence mode for a long time. Heck would shut up the A clan as well.

 

[Bittiness39]

I can't agree with the note. Then again I can.

Problem for KC and JB crew if she did. Huge mistake to quote KC, if she did and JB doesn't know about it yet. That would certainly put the JB crew into silence mode for a long time. Heck would shut up the A clan as well.

The whole family is very symbolic. Hence, holidays being above average importance. What if beyond the tatoo, the posting on her page, the heart sticker, just imagine, her, KC, leaving some kind of memorial or some kind of something at the scene. Because why go batsh** over the remains being found. LE already found the car with all the decomp in it. Ya know? She didn't react really at all to that. She must have left something big time that indicates...I came I saw I killed too bad so sad...JMO.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I'm hoping the smoking gun is a connection between Casey and a ZFG identity. A drivers license, id card, traffic ticket . . . That's what my money's riding on.

 

[countzero]

The whole family is very symbolic. Hence, holidays being above average importance. What if beyond the tatoo, the posting on her page, the heart sticker, just imagine, her, KC, leaving some kind of memorial or some kind of something at the scene. Because why go batsh** over the remains being found. LE already found the car with all the decomp in it. Ya know? She didn't react really at all to that. She must have left something big time that indicates...I came I saw I killed too bad so sad...JMO.

And the note written in Anthoneise of course.

bbm: boy does this sum it up. One of my grands use to say "too bad, so sad" all the time when they were toddlers. I can envision KC saying it the same way.

 

[Bittiness39]

And the note written in Anthoneise of course.

bbm: boy does this sum it up. One of my grands use to say "too bad, so sad" all the time when they were toddlers. I can envision KC saying it the same way.

I totally dig your posts. You write backwards. In a good way. Gramatically. Seriously. You write how movie scripts should read. Does that make sense? Meant it as a compliment.
And yes, KC, imo left something with that baby that IMMEDIATELY led LE back to the A house. Dead toddler, bags, etc...and all does not mean immediate. A lot of stuff went through tons of forensics. I just wonder what KC left.

 

[USARDOG]

I keep wondering about the "hair mat" that was talked about in the autopsy. Could it have been a sign of Caylee struggling to breathe with her nose and mouth taped up....her head turning from side to side in a frenzy trying to breathe????? How horrible. DP warranted....

The hair mat is a normal part of the decay process and bears no evidence of struggle.