Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #6 (New Smoking Gun Theories for DP)

[cecybeans]

But if the medical examiner isn't convinced that the duct tape was placed pre-death, what medical evidence did she use to determine that this was a homicide?

I'm starting to think that we can use the homicide ruling to infer that the ME believes the tape was placed pre-death -- without the tape, what medical evidence is there of a homicide?

Great point! Perhaps there is evidence (as in Jon Benet case) of teethmarks or vomit or something else that would indicate antemortem duct tape placement.

IIRC, when the fingerprint report came out, GA, CA, and LA were cleared of latents, but nothing was mentioned about either Casey OR Caylee.

I realize we've heard a lot about fingerprints and humidity, but if Caylee had her own prints on that tape it would clearly prove she was alive when it was applied.

 

[countzero]

I totally dig your posts. You write backwards. In a good way. Gramatically. Seriously. You write how movie scripts should read. Does that make sense? Meant it as a compliment.
And yes, KC, imo left something with that baby that IMMEDIATELY led LE back to the A house. Dead toddler, bags, etc...and all does not mean immediate. A lot of stuff went through tons of forensics. I just wonder what KC left.

:blowkiss: Thank you. When enough George Lucas flicks you have watched and Yoda is your all time hero, much speak I have picked up.

Yep I agree, whatever it was that LE found with Caylee's remains, they tied it directly to the A clan property and got a search warrant immediately. So it most likely was something that CA/GA/LA over looked while attempting to remove whatever evidence they thought would tie KC to Caylee's site. All part of the clean up.

It's gonna be a dozie that none of us would have thought of. Simple is like simple does -- the A clan way.

 

[MAMABEAR]

Was the sheet missing from KC's bed? Maybe she wrapped her sheet around baby. Maybe thats why they were interested in her mattress.

 

[countzero]

LB35, do ya think the item left could have been a shamrock? I'm not sure now if it was a note, more on the lines of a personal, family only item or reference. Something that LE either saw in the A clan property or had previously collected but left something they didn't consider important at the time.

BC has the diary in his possession, but I wonder what else was in it. Or something from Caylee's room.

I am multi-tasking here watching both the CWS Baseball and local news while reading and typing.

 

[cyberborg]

because shes a sneaky little @itch!!!!!!!!!

KC may not be Irish but she has the luck of the Irish, such a bungled murder but she has been very lucky ...... so far.

 

[tweety933]

A disposable camera was found at the dump site....

Maybe it is related to Caylee and had undeveloped film that points directly to Casey? Just a thought! Maybe a smoking gun if images revealed something.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2009/feb/18/caylees-mom-wanted-be-committed-friends-told-detec/

 

[Bittiness39]

LB35, do ya think the item left could have been a shamrock? I'm not sure now if it was a note, more on the lines of a personal, family only item or reference. Something that LE either saw in the A clan property or had previously collected but left something they didn't consider important at the time.

BC has the diary in his possession, but I wonder what else was in it. Or something from Caylee's room.

I am multi-tasking here watching both the CWS Baseball and local news while reading and typing.

Hello? UT ex grad watching the world series...:blowkiss: But I am following what you are saying. there has to be something that KC left with the remains that LE jumped on.

 

[VALee]

I'm not convinced anything about the duct tape will be the ultimate smoking gun. Decomp leakage occurs from every orifice, the duct tape was likely used to stop the unexpected drainage during final movement from trunk to dumpsite A. That said, I don't have a sense of what the smoking gun could be, but I feel certain we do not know everything yet and some key pieces of evidence have gone uncompromised to this point.

All this said, I wonder if KC accidentally left something at the dump site, such as her own hair or perhaps a piece of clothing she could not bear to walk out of the woods wearing. Hauling a decomposing body that is draining is messy work accompanied with one of the foulest odors we can imagine. There's more evidence out there, just not sure if the right people ever found it or if it's lying in a dump of trash somewhere, or perhaps in a Prosecutor's desk with a nice, discoverable report.

 

[cyberborg]

I honestly don't think Casey knew or thought about decomp and I'm of the opinion that she definately planned this. In the tattoo thread a tattoo artist mentioned he uses chloroform to clean his instruments (I dont' know how to link that here). I think thats a pretty good lead on how she may have knocked out Caylee, then duct taped her. I also don't think she was in a rage when she did it. Thus no problem in using sissors to cut the duct tape. She obviously was not stagging a kidnapping... she never reported her missing nor 'ever' planned too imo. And that time/space she was putting between Caylee's death & no one knowing Caylee was missing is a smoking gun in and of itself. She never (from what we know) told a soul Caylee was missing. The kidnapping story only came out of her when CA found her & she had to come up with the her #1 fall-back.. the nanny has her. jmo

This is an important point, if KC was staging a kidnapping then why didn't she pull the trigger on that? Even if KC procrastinated, why not pull the trigger as soon as CA found her at TL's? Although KC was stating that Caylee was with the Nanny, telling everyone, she was also making that seem normal so that's damning and conflicting with the claim of a kidnapping on June 16 in Sawgrass or JBP. Duct tape was not for staging, not for decomp since it was pre decomp...... therefore

 

[cyberborg]

note: This may belong on a different thread; if so, please relocate. Thanks!

(bold mine)

If the tape wasn't wound around Caylee's head, and if Caylee's hair was in a ponytail, how did so much hair (enough to secure the mandible in place post-decomposition) get stuck to the tape? I'm running the scenario in my mind and can't get a visualization.

Also, let's assume Caylee's hair was loose (no elastics or barrettes): in this case, wouldn't Caylee have to have been in an upright position (maybe strapped in her car seat?), rather than lying down, for that much hair to get caught in the tape? You WSers with long hair: don't you find that when you're lying down, your hair falls away from your face?

I need to go back and read the autopsy docs again - I'm just not able to figure this one out. I'd love some feedback here if you all have any to offer.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[faefrost]

I'm not convinced anything about the duct tape will be the ultimate smoking gun. Decomp leakage occurs from every orifice, the duct tape was likely used to stop the unexpected drainage during final movement from trunk to dumpsite A. That said, I don't have a sense of what the smoking gun could be, but I feel certain we do not know everything yet and some key pieces of evidence have gone uncompromised to this point.

All this said, I wonder if KC accidentally left something at the dump site, such as her own hair or perhaps a piece of clothing she could not bear to walk out of the woods wearing. Hauling a decomposing body that is draining is messy work accompanied with one of the foulest odors we can imagine. There's more evidence out there, just not sure if the right people ever found it or if it's lying in a dump of trash somewhere, or perhaps in a Prosecutor's desk with a nice, discoverable report.

multiple applications of duct tape wrapped tight enough to secure the jaw to the skull? I cant see that being done to a dead child to prevent fluid leaking. It is either an act of rage or anger, or it is an attempt to make it look like a kidnapping and reinforce the planned lies. Either way it is damning.

And I cant believe KC would have willingly directly handled Caylees remains at a later stage of decomposition. Just does not seem to be within her character. I mean she drove around with her dead child in the trunk until the stench of decomposition got to be too overwelming and then threw her away like trash. Everything about this is hateful acts.

 

[Mama-cita]

I'm not convinced anything about the duct tape will be the ultimate smoking gun. Decomp leakage occurs from every orifice, the duct tape was likely used to stop the unexpected drainage during final movement from trunk to dumpsite A. That said, I don't have a sense of what the smoking gun could be, but I feel certain we do not know everything yet and some key pieces of evidence have gone uncompromised to this point.
.

Bolded by me.

I respectfully disagree, and tape used to stop leakage would not likely prevent the mandible from disarticulating from the cranium (jaw bone from top of the head). Once all tissues were deteriorated, nothing would have been able to keep those two pieces of bone together, especially with all the apparent animal activity which caused the other bones to scatter. Just think about it. That tape was placed SO tightly, in so many layers, around the base of that poor babies skull, that in spite of decomposition, deterioration, weather, and animal activity, those two pieces of bone were held firmly together. What does that say? If she was just trying to prevent leakage, as you suggest, maybe a piece or two placed over the nose and mouth, but wrapped in layers all the way around the base of the skull? First of all, KC is clearly not a Rhodes scholar or rocket scientist. How can we even assume that she was aware or was smart enough to anticipate any postmortem drainage? I certainly would not give her that much credit. Secondly, if she waited any significant period of time after death to apply the tape, realizing the leakage and attempting to stop it, the liquid from the decomp, as well as the condition of the flesh (in the hot Florida sun) would certainly have prevented the tape from adhering SO WELL that it would keep the mandible and skull connected after all that time, under the conditions mentioned above.
IMO, the tape most certainly is the smoking gun and we will hear much more about it at trial. At that point, any reasonable person will be able to infer (heck at that point a chicken mcnugget would be able to infer) that the tape was placed wantonly and willfully in an attempt to end the life of the baby.

 

[countzero]

After mulling over this, it doesn't make any sense that KC would use duct tape to stop any leakage. KC had the Poo blanket handy, we know that since it was found with Caylee. There were also paper towels handy for KC to use. Both which a lazy person like KC would have reached for to "stuff-stop" the leakage. Plus Caylee was double bagged.

I am leaning towards a scenario where KC murdered Caylee in the A clan property. The duct tape was already on Caylee and then KC wrapped a murdered Caylee in her Poo blanket possibly moving her to the playhouse then into the two plastic black bags. Somewhere, sometime during these moves, which Caylee is still wrapped in the blanket, small tears occur thus the staining in the trunk. Finally days later, for one reason or another, KC flits down Suburban and leaves Caylee. Duct taped, double bagged in a laundry basket. 20 minutes later KC is getting a movie and planning hot sex with AL.

This can fit in with the timeline and pings. So much for CSI educating KC. Not.

 

[MaedchenX]

The theory that the duct tape was used to prevent fluids from leaking, raises several questions for me;

What was the duct tape used to prevent fluids from leaking on? The trunk of the car that already must have reeked of decomposition? The blanket would likely have already absorbed some fluids, right? Surely KC did not bag the body of her child only to then remove it to apply duct tape and then return to the layers of cloth and plastic? So then I have to believe that the body was far enough in the decomposition process to be leaking fluid but was not yet shrouded or concealed in the laundry or trash bags?

I am probably not articulating this clearly, it is late, apologies.

 

[countzero]

The theory that the duct tape was used to prevent fluids from leaking, raises several questions for me;

What was the duct tape used to prevent fluids from leaking on? The trunk of the car that already must have reeked of decomposition? The blanket that would surely have already absorbed the fluids? Surely KC did not bag the body of her child only to then remove it to apply duct tape and then return to the layers of cloth and plastic? So then I have to believe that the body was far enough in the decomposition process to be leaking fluid but was not yet shrouded or concealed in the laundry or trash bags?

I don't think KC would have hoisted the plastic bags holding Caylee duct taped and wrapped in the blanket. I mow the lawn and use 39 gallon plastic bags and when they are half full they are HEAVY. I drag them to the street.

I think she had initially Caylee wrapped in the blanket in the playhouse. Decomp leaked, the dogs hit on it in the back yard. Small tears happened she didn't notice. After backing the car into the garage, she looked around, found the laundry basket. She could have dragged a bagged Caylee towards the garage and put Caylee in the trunk. Within a short period of time, she discovers the double bag leaked and she gets the laundry basket from the garage to put Caylee in.

I don't know the order of how it happened other than what Dr G found. A duct taped Caylee inside double plastic bags inside of a plastic lined laundry basket. Unless I read the report wrong.

 

[MaedchenX]

I don't think KC would have hoisted the plastic bags holding Caylee duct taped and wrapped in the blanket. I mow the lawn and use 39 gallon plastic bags and when they are half full they are HEAVY. I drag them to the street.

I think she had initially Caylee wrapped in the blanket in the playhouse. Decomp leaked, the dogs hit on it in the back yard. Small tears happened she didn't notice. After backing the car into the garage, she looked around, found the laundry basket. She could have dragged a bagged Caylee towards the garage and put Caylee in the trunk. Within a short period of time, she discovers the double bag leaked and she gets the laundry basket from the garage to put Caylee in.

I don't know the order of how it happened other than what Dr G found. A duct taped Caylee inside double plastic bags inside of a plastic lined laundry basket. Unless I read the report wrong.

I too think that this is likely the series of events, and agree with your prior post that it doesn't make sense for Casey to have used the duct tape to prevent fluid leakage.

 

[Bobbisangel]

It to me, is interesting to speculate, what the SA may be holding close to the vest that might indicate a motive/sense of guilt on the part of KC...why the SA may have put the DP back on the table without a definitive cause of death. My thought was a note written to Caylee from KC found with her remains...We all are wondering if there is a smoking gun...what would it be...that would show anything other than Caylee died accidentally...what is it?

There is no way anyone can die accidentally when they are found with layers of duct tape over their nose and mouth. The baby didn't put that tape there herself so there is just one other person who could have done it. Everything points straight to Casey.

Scott Peterson sits on death row and the state didn't know for sure the cause of death. They believed that Scott smothered Laci but there was no proof except circumstancial. Caylee's case is no different. Her death was no accident and with that tape across her mouth and nose it looks like she was smothered probably after she was given something to knock her out but that can't be proven either because all of her organs and flesh, etc, was gone.

I think the death penalty was put back on the table after the truth was revealed about the duct tape and how much was used and where it was placed. There really wasn't anything else that we weren't aware of.

 

[cecybeans]

You've all made me think this duct tape thing differently. At first I thought it might be some kind of last minute staging thing (some impulsive One Tree Hill thing to be used later after she had time to think up a good story with plenty of bogus details).

But if it had been used for staging, I think it would have been applied more loosely and it would not have needed to be from ear to ear, just over the mouth. And a sleeping child would not need more than one layer. The tightness of the tape, the fact that there were multiple layers make me think she was alive when it was applied, and she was fighting to take it off. Even if the initial intention was child abuse to quiet a screaming child, the act of repitition places it straight into the realm of premeditation.

From what I understand even accidental death from abuse is felony manslaughter and automatic Murder One for a child under 12 in FL. The jury has the choice of that sentence (up to 20 years), LWOP or DP if I understand correctly.

What will begin to erase the reasonable doubt required to go with the most lenient conviction is the belief for the jury that this was not an accident and it was premeditated. Perhaps the way the duct tape was applied (tight, multi-layers) suggests she was still alive and dispels the notion it was staging (unnecessary excess). The entire idea that the duct tape was applied while she was living (particularly if there are teeth marks on the first layer or Caylee's fingerprints on that or subsequent layers) instantly points to premeditation. If that's so, then this could be the best reason DP has been reconsidered. It may be the particulars about this one piece of evidence that ratchets this up to DP level regardless of the ambiguity of other facts in the circumstantial chain.

 

[Bobbisangel]

I respectfully disagree. As I have stated a number of times, I believe this could have been a postmortem attempt to stop the fluids that would have been issuing from the nose and mouth. Which would have been more than a trivial act to accomplish. I don't think it is safe to assume the tape was placed either antemortem or perimortem. My disclaimer here is that either of us could be right, but that would also be my point.

I can't imagine Casey being concerned about fluids escaping from Caylee's body. I can't imagine her even thinking about fluids. She bagged her in two trash bags and the laundry hamper and probably thought that was good enough. I doubt that Casey planned on keeping Caylee in her trunk for a couple days. She probably got busy partying or staying with a guy and forgot all about getting rid of Caylee. Then she started to smell her and had to figure out where to dump her little body. Where better then in the woods where Casey and her friends hung out when they were younger close to Caseys own home. Then Casey could honestly tell her parents."I really feel that she is close to home." And sure enough, Caylee was close to home....15 houses away.

The Pros has motive for the murder....freedom and revenge. They don't really need to prove for sure how Caylee died. Smothering Caylee fits right in this big puzzle along with probably giving her something to knock her out first.

 

[Bobbisangel]

I can never use duct tape or packing tape without getting hair on it. I can't stand it but it seems to pick up everything and anything that floats by it.
I know it was said there were no fingerprints on the duct tape but what about a hair of two that belong to Casey. Would that have been on the autopsy report or something the Pros is holding back?