Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #8

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I'll have to think on this. This is, IMO, the most well thought argument for duct tape that I've heard, and the only one that even comes close to having that gut "ahh, I can see" feeling. Thanks for your thoughts.

Thanks for your kind comments.

The duct tape to me has always been a way to make it a "soft" killing. Most mothers, smother or drown their children. It's not messy, and once the duct tape was on, and she was put in the trunk, Casey was out the door (as per cell pings around 4:20) She would be driving along and not have to see or hear Caylee (sorry it's awful to think about)

I also believe that by the afternoon of the 17th when she left Tone's bed (hyper sexuality is common after a crime for sociopaths) that what she did truly hit her. I think she regretted what she did because only then did the ramifications set in. I'm sure she would have taken it back if only for her own sake but unfortunately I don't think she felt bad for what she did to Caylee only for what she did to herself.
 
I have read two things that stick with me about the fight. One was Jesse Grund saying Lee told him and one from Leonard Padilla also saying Lee told him that CA and ICA had a huge fight and CA tried to strangle ICA and told her she was going to take Caylee.

The other thing is way back when Cindy was asked about the fight, she went into way too much denail. Me thinks she doth protest too much. Now on the stand, she says when she got home from the Retirement home, later that evening when Casey got home they watched home movies and had a big love fest. This has never rung true to me. CA had just talked to her Mom that afternoon about ICA stealing from CA's Mom. I'm sure CA was spitting mad. I don't picture a love fest after dealing with yet another theft by ICA.

I believe the fight happened. There was a report of a neighbor hearing 2 fights close together around that time.
HTH
Yes, it all fits together, all that you are saying, and it certainly would be the trigger or catalyst which would have caused Casey to finally make real what had just been a fantasy (being free of the child).
 
I've tried and tried and tried to make all the evidence and facts work out a plausible scenario that I like, but it just doesn't work. I don't like any of them.

My mind just does not want to go to cold calculated, duct tape to the face murder. I keep going over every kind of accidental theory I can such as drowning in the pool, accidental OD from chloroform or Xanax, I even thought for a while that she backed in the garage with a sleeping Caylee in the car and thought because it was so hot out, she'd let the car run for air conditioning and accidentally killed her with carbon monoxide and when she found an overheated Caylee, she plunged her into the pool, but it was too late, she pulled her out and layed her in the back yard, thus the dog hits. I could go on and on, but they never sit well with me.

I really really tried to find a plausible scenario. Three years later, I still can't find anything accidental to fit. It ALL comes back to the duct tape.

The only thing that works for me, is a very angry Casey, either because of the fight with CA or because she called all kinds of people the afternoon of the 16th and not one of those so called people who love her will take Caylee so she could be with Tone that night. I think this was a slow boiling rage that built over the almost 3 years of Caylee's life.

I think she just flipped a switch and said "oh ya, all you so and so's who think Caylee is so sweet and just love her, where are you when "I" want to go out and do something for myself. Nobody wants to help ME when I want to do something. It's all about Caylee Caylee Caylee. Well if nobody will babysit then FINE!" I think she very calmly and quickly, went in to the garage, grabbed the duct tape, covered her mouth so there would be no noise, maybe chloroformed her first. I do have my suspicions that chloroform may be a red herring here. She may have made some and it may have leaked or spilled in her trunk or maybe she used it on Caylee, not sure, but for me the key piece is the duct tape. I think she very calmly tossed her in the trunk so as not to see or hear. Out of sight, out of mind, and went on her date with Tone.

I honestly do not believe that there was ever a plan to stage a kidnapping or say the nanny did it. I believe she just did it on the spur of the moment. I think she fantasized what life would be like without Caylee and Tone wanted boys anyway, so all those things that made Caylee a noose around ICA neck came to a peak at that time. CA threatening a custody fight, her new friends, Tone, it just peaked and without thinking it through she did it.

I think that telling people in the begining that Caylee was with the Nanny was just a way to explain her absence. I really don't think she thought more than a day at a time. She just kept hedging her parents, trying to deal with each thing that cropped up, like the smell in the car and so on.

The idea of the Nanny came to her over the month of repeating again and again that the Nanny had her. Who better to blame her disappearance on than the Nanny who supposedly had her all this time anyway. It was just an extension to her lie that was already in place. Caylee was with Zanny.

I don't believe there was alot of thought or planning, I think she just did it and went day by day, knowing all the while that something was gonna give, so she enjoyed every second she had before it all hit the fan. I firmly believe that she would never have reported her missing and that she was starting to formulate a plan on how to get away from her parents so they would never know Caylee was missing. I think she was going to move to California to Mark Hawkins, but she really really liked Tone so kept staying just a little longer, just a little longer thinking soon, I'll figure it all out soon, but then she got caught.

I do believe she is a sociopath and I believe that the A's have been through hell with her. So much so that they just "let sleeping dogs lie" If she wasn't hurting them or Caylee and things were running smoothly they just turned a blind eye to her "job" and other things they suspected were lies. I have no sympathy for the A's because they added the fuel for Casey's fire, but living with a true Sociopath is punishment enough. Unless you've had the distinct experience of dealing with a sociopath it's hard to understand. You do NOT want to rock the boat, it's like walking on eggshells. You try and keep the peace at all costs. Unfortunately for the A's the cost was Caylee.

JMOO, sorry it was so long. I've spent 3 years thinking about this and as much as all these long twisty theories have gone through my mind. I think it was just very simple and unplanned. I honestly think people are disecting it too much are reading way to much into the most minute thing. Occam's Razor.

Thank you for this post. After three years, I've come to basically the same conclusion that you have, right down to suspecting that the chloroform may be a red herring.

Even if the jury doesn't believe it was predmeditated, if they believe the duct tape was put on prior to death, that's still First Degree Felony Murder in Florida:

Felony murder occurs when a person kills another human being while engaged in the commission, or attempted commission, of the following statutorily enumerated felonies, regardless of whether they intended to kill anybody:

Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
Aggravated child abuse,
<list snipped>​
 
I've tried and tried and tried to make all the evidence and facts work out a plausible scenario that I like, but it just doesn't work. I don't like any of them.

My mind just does not want to go to cold calculated, duct tape to the face murder. I keep going over every kind of accidental theory I can such as drowning in the pool, accidental OD from chloroform or Xanax, I even thought for a while that she backed in the garage with a sleeping Caylee in the car and thought because it was so hot out, she'd let the car run for air conditioning and accidentally killed her with carbon monoxide and when she found an overheated Caylee, she plunged her into the pool, but it was too late, she pulled her out and layed her in the back yard, thus the dog hits. I could go on and on, but they never sit well with me.

I really really tried to find a plausible scenario. Three years later, I still can't find anything accidental to fit. It ALL comes back to the duct tape.

The only thing that works for me, is a very angry Casey, either because of the fight with CA or because she called all kinds of people the afternoon of the 16th and not one of those so called people who love her will take Caylee so she could be with Tone that night. I think this was a slow boiling rage that built over the almost 3 years of Caylee's life.

I think she just flipped a switch and said "oh ya, all you so and so's who think Caylee is so sweet and just love her, where are you when "I" want to go out and do something for myself. Nobody wants to help ME when I want to do something. It's all about Caylee Caylee Caylee. Well if nobody will babysit then FINE!" I think she very calmly and quickly, went in to the garage, grabbed the duct tape, covered her mouth so there would be no noise, maybe chloroformed her first. I do have my suspicions that chloroform may be a red herring here. She may have made some and it may have leaked or spilled in her trunk or maybe she used it on Caylee, not sure, but for me the key piece is the duct tape. I think she very calmly tossed her in the trunk so as not to see or hear. Out of sight, out of mind, and went on her date with Tone.

I honestly do not believe that there was ever a plan to stage a kidnapping or say the nanny did it. I believe she just did it on the spur of the moment. I think she fantasized what life would be like without Caylee and Tone wanted boys anyway, so all those things that made Caylee a noose around ICA neck came to a peak at that time. CA threatening a custody fight, her new friends, Tone, it just peaked and without thinking it through she did it.

I think that telling people in the begining that Caylee was with the Nanny was just a way to explain her absence. I really don't think she thought more than a day at a time. She just kept hedging her parents, trying to deal with each thing that cropped up, like the smell in the car and so on.

The idea of the Nanny came to her over the month of repeating again and again that the Nanny had her. Who better to blame her disappearance on than the Nanny who supposedly had her all this time anyway. It was just an extension to her lie that was already in place. Caylee was with Zanny.

I don't believe there was alot of thought or planning, I think she just did it and went day by day, knowing all the while that something was gonna give, so she enjoyed every second she had before it all hit the fan. I firmly believe that she would never have reported her missing and that she was starting to formulate a plan on how to get away from her parents so they would never know Caylee was missing. I think she was going to move to California to Mark Hawkins, but she really really liked Tone so kept staying just a little longer, just a little longer thinking soon, I'll figure it all out soon, but then she got caught.

I do believe she is a sociopath and I believe that the A's have been through hell with her. So much so that they just "let sleeping dogs lie" If she wasn't hurting them or Caylee and things were running smoothly they just turned a blind eye to her "job" and other things they suspected were lies. I have no sympathy for the A's because they added the fuel for Casey's fire, but living with a true Sociopath is punishment enough. Unless you've had the distinct experience of dealing with a sociopath it's hard to understand. You do NOT want to rock the boat, it's like walking on eggshells. You try and keep the peace at all costs. Unfortunately for the A's the cost was Caylee.

JMOO, sorry it was so long. I've spent 3 years thinking about this and as much as all these long twisty theories have gone through my mind. I think it was just very simple and unplanned. I honestly think people are disecting it too much and are reading way to much into the most minute thing. Occam's Razor.
I agree with both you and GeekyGirl. This is very close to what I'm thinking.
 
I have heard that it was so loud that neighbors heard it. Lee would likely be the one who conveyed the fight. Although it has not been part of factual evidence, it surely is believable, given the stealing Casey had done from Cindy and her parents, and the volatile nature of the mother/daughter relationship, and the power struggle over the little child. Recall, Cindy would not WANT to admit that she had inadvertently provoked what happened next. It is a reasonable trigger. (if you can call killing your child "reasonable" which i do not ) But yes, there is no "proof" I know of. altho a doctor speaks of it on her website, body language expert, cannot recall her name now....

BBM

I agree. If cindy admitted to the fight then everyone would know ICA's motive. Cindy denies the fight and actually turns it around to make it appear there was no motive things in "A" land we're perfect! This way, Cindy is trying to undo what was done on the 15th.

MOO
 
no prob....

because I am following the evidence in the case which has far from lead me to believe this was as accident covered with a murder. I look at everything as a whole...I cant pick and chose and add non evidential personal theories into my opinion...

if it was to be a staged kidnap then it would be just that....not half of a staged kidnap...

If this was a drowning and a coverup. then it would be just that. There would be no need to add that how the body was discovered was shady, and that LE and ME's and csi, are all crooked and out to frame kc.

I also have yet to see any proof or testimony of kcs sudden healing and newly gained ability to express emotion for her "accidentally drowned" child.

mooc

BBM

I am not certain of that. I think that Casey may drowned her child, or accidentally/negligently let her drown. But then decided to make it a staged kidnapping and duct taped her.

But things fell apart when she waited too long and allowed the car to absorb all of the decomp fluids. And she did not want to ruin her present day 'good life' by calling in the kidnapping report. She knew that would be bad, and might backfire. So she just carried on as if nothing happened, and partied while she could. imoo
 
BBM

I am not certain of that. I think that Casey may drowned her child, or accidentally/negligently let her drown. But then decided to make it a staged kidnapping and duct taped her.

But things fell apart when she waited too long and allowed the car to absorb all of the decomp fluids. And she did not want to ruin her present day 'good life' by calling in the kidnapping report. She knew that would be bad, and might backfire. So she just carried on as if nothing happened, and partied while she could. imoo
Exactly. As much as it would have made more sense to call in a kidnapping report, she obviously would have had the "Bella Vita" interrupted, and as you say, could even have LE disbelieving her, checking her out. So she put it off and off....
 
With so many theories of what people think happen who have MORE info than even the jury coupled with the many charges to choose from how many of you think she may end up with a hung jury? I am very concerned about that possibility.
I was just watching the Betty Broderick story and the 1st trial ended in a hung jury because 2 jurors would not charge her with Murder 1 and would only go for manslaughter. It ened with a hung jury due to that. (of course she was retired, much evidence was not allowed in and the state finally got a conviction - but with the circus of Caseys trial i dont know if the state would retry her - where would you find another jury?)
 
With so many theories of what people think happen who have MORE info than even the jury coupled with the many charges to choose from how many of you think she may end up with a hung jury? I am very concerned about that possibility.
I was just watching the Betty Broderick story and the 1st trial ended in a hung jury because 2 jurors would not charge her with Murder 1 and would only go for manslaughter. It ened with a hung jury due to that. (of course she was retired, much evidence was not allowed in and the state finally got a conviction - but with the circus of Caseys trial i dont know if the state would retry her - where would you find another jury?)
I have had this worry , too. They might even split into 2 camps, 50/50, with no one willing to back down. If their deliberations begin to drag on and on, I would think this will be why.
 
She could come to NC...I'd be happy to sit on that jury for a few months :innocent:

LOL I'm in NC too, and I've already been told in no uncertain terms by some people that they wouldn't want me on the jury.
 
With so many theories of what people think happen who have MORE info than even the jury coupled with the many charges to choose from how many of you think she may end up with a hung jury? I am very concerned about that possibility.
I was just watching the Betty Broderick story and the 1st trial ended in a hung jury because 2 jurors would not charge her with Murder 1 and would only go for manslaughter. It ened with a hung jury due to that. (of course she was retired, much evidence was not allowed in and the state finally got a conviction - but with the circus of Caseys trial i dont know if the state would retry her - where would you find another jury?)

I've actually thought about this a great deal and I'm honestly not sure if having more or less information would be better.
 
In another story about this lady the last paragraph of the story reads

The night before, court documents show, Megan Hogg had argued with her mother about the children. Hogg later told officers that she had been upset because her mother had threatened to kick her out of the house and to get physical custody of the children.

http://articles.sfgate.com/1999-09-25/news/17699298_1_greg-hogg-medication-sentenced/2

This has a familiar ring to it.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

Here is the link:

http://articles.sfgate.com/1999-09-25/news/17699298_1_greg-hogg-medication-sentenced/2

The night before, court documents show, Megan Hogg had argued with her mother about the children. Hogg later told officers that she had been upset because her mother had threatened to kick her out of the house and to get physical custody of the children.

Prosecutor Jack Grandsaert said in his statement to the court that Hogg's actions were selfish, spiteful and the ultimate betrayal of a child's trust in his or her mother.

Hmmmm, selfish, spiteful and betrayal also ring a bell...
 
I've tried and tried and tried to make all the evidence and facts work out a plausible scenario that I like, but it just doesn't work. I don't like any of them.

My mind just does not want to go to cold calculated, duct tape to the face murder. I keep going over every kind of accidental theory I can such as drowning in the pool, accidental OD from chloroform or Xanax, I even thought for a while that she backed in the garage with a sleeping Caylee in the car and thought because it was so hot out, she'd let the car run for air conditioning and accidentally killed her with carbon monoxide and when she found an overheated Caylee, she plunged her into the pool, but it was too late, she pulled her out and layed her in the back yard, thus the dog hits. I could go on and on, but they never sit well with me.

I really really tried to find a plausible scenario. Three years later, I still can't find anything accidental to fit. It ALL comes back to the duct tape.

The only thing that works for me, is a very angry Casey, either because of the fight with CA or because she called all kinds of people the afternoon of the 16th and not one of those so called people who love her will take Caylee so she could be with Tone that night. I think this was a slow boiling rage that built over the almost 3 years of Caylee's life.

I think she just flipped a switch and said "oh ya, all you so and so's who think Caylee is so sweet and just love her, where are you when "I" want to go out and do something for myself. Nobody wants to help ME when I want to do something. It's all about Caylee Caylee Caylee. Well if nobody will babysit then FINE!" I think she very calmly and quickly, went in to the garage, grabbed the duct tape, covered her mouth so there would be no noise, maybe chloroformed her first. I do have my suspicions that chloroform may be a red herring here. She may have made some and it may have leaked or spilled in her trunk or maybe she used it on Caylee, not sure, but for me the key piece is the duct tape. I think she very calmly tossed her in the trunk so as not to see or hear. Out of sight, out of mind, and went on her date with Tone.

I honestly do not believe that there was ever a plan to stage a kidnapping or say the nanny did it. I believe she just did it on the spur of the moment. I think she fantasized what life would be like without Caylee and Tone wanted boys anyway, so all those things that made Caylee a noose around ICA neck came to a peak at that time. CA threatening a custody fight, her new friends, Tone, it just peaked and without thinking it through she did it.

I think that telling people in the begining that Caylee was with the Nanny was just a way to explain her absence. I really don't think she thought more than a day at a time. She just kept hedging her parents, trying to deal with each thing that cropped up, like the smell in the car and so on.

The idea of the Nanny came to her over the month of repeating again and again that the Nanny had her. Who better to blame her disappearance on than the Nanny who supposedly had her all this time anyway. It was just an extension to her lie that was already in place. Caylee was with Zanny.

I don't believe there was alot of thought or planning, I think she just did it and went day by day, knowing all the while that something was gonna give, so she enjoyed every second she had before it all hit the fan. I firmly believe that she would never have reported her missing and that she was starting to formulate a plan on how to get away from her parents so they would never know Caylee was missing. I think she was going to move to California to Mark Hawkins, but she really really liked Tone so kept staying just a little longer, just a little longer thinking soon, I'll figure it all out soon, but then she got caught.

I do believe she is a sociopath and I believe that the A's have been through hell with her. So much so that they just "let sleeping dogs lie" If she wasn't hurting them or Caylee and things were running smoothly they just turned a blind eye to her "job" and other things they suspected were lies. I have no sympathy for the A's because they added the fuel for Casey's fire, but living with a true Sociopath is punishment enough. Unless you've had the distinct experience of dealing with a sociopath it's hard to understand. You do NOT want to rock the boat, it's like walking on eggshells. You try and keep the peace at all costs. Unfortunately for the A's the cost was Caylee.

JMOO, sorry it was so long. I've spent 3 years thinking about this and as much as all these long twisty theories have gone through my mind. I think it was just very simple and unplanned. I honestly think people are disecting it too much and are reading way to much into the most minute thing. Occam's Razor.

I think this is the closest to the truth that we'll ever get.
 
Wow, cannot believe the similarities. complete parallel.....Thanks for those quotes. Argument with mother, threats of gaining custody, duct tape........the plot thickens....:waitasec: for me, this is making me lean away from an accident a bit....quite a bit....

For arguments sake, there are dissimilarities as well. History of depression, medication, the mother's behavior afterwards, the hands being bound, etc. I'm not saying that completely negates the reference, just that again, it's important to be wary of confirmation bias.
 
For arguments sake, there are dissimilarities as well. History of depression, medication, the mother's behavior afterwards, the hands being bound, etc. I'm not saying that completely negates the reference, just that again, it's important to be wary of confirmation bias.

Casey had made statements to a couple of friends about feeling some emotional distress (referenced in link below)... Many here believe that the extra piece of duct tape at the scene (Q104) was used to bound Caylee's hands... But I agree with you that we should be wary of confirmation bias... I just found the similarities interesting..

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2009/feb/18/caylees-mom-wanted-be-committed-friends-told-detec/
 
For arguments sake, there are dissimilarities as well. History of depression, medication, the mother's behavior afterwards, the hands being bound, etc. I'm not saying that completely negates the reference, just that again, it's important to be wary of confirmation bias.
Quite true!
 
Casey had made statements to a couple of friends about feeling some emotional distress (referenced in link below)... Many here believe that the extra piece of duct tape at the scene (Q104) was used to bound Caylee's hands... But I agree with you that we should be wary of confirmation bias... I just found the similarities interesting..

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2009/feb/18/caylees-mom-wanted-be-committed-friends-told-detec/

Oh I did too... I appreciate the post. Sorry, I tend to play devil's advocate with myself a lot, it's nothing personal against any other poster. It's just how my mind works, like my name says, I'm a total geek. :)
 
Oh I did too... I appreciate the post. Sorry, I tend to play devil's advocate with myself a lot, it's nothing personal against any other poster. It's just how my mind works, like my name says, I'm a total geek. :)
Always good to explore both sides, and look at all angles....
 
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