Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #9

[mattfz]

I think the scenarios discussed here are very very close to the truth. but maybe I missed something-- how does the chloroform fit in?

everything about the chloroform bothers me. it has to be part of the equation, under every scenario, right?

chloroform is googled in March, possibly to off CA and GA. but... coincidentally, is found in the trunk.

chloroform is googled in March, after KC sees the "win her over with chloroform" post on myspace, because she doesn't know what it is. but... coincidentally is found in the trunk.

doesn't it seem unlikely, that chloroform is searched in March, but ends up in the trunk as a reaction between household cleaners?

is everyone stuck on the role of chloroform?

(btw, does chloroform actually result from household cleaners, or is that part BS?)

 

[Tulessa]

I think the scenarios discussed here are very very close to the truth. but maybe I missed something-- how does the chloroform fit in?

everything about the chloroform bothers me. it has to be part of the equation, under every scenario, right?

chloroform is googled in March, possibly to off CA and GA. but... coincidentally, is found in the trunk.

chloroform is googled in March, after KC sees the "win her over with chloroform" post on myspace, because she doesn't know what it is. but... coincidentally is found in the trunk.

doesn't it seem unlikely, that chloroform is searched in March, but ends up in the trunk as a reaction between household cleaners?

is everyone stuck on the role of chloroform?

(btw, does chloroform actually result from household cleaners, or is that part BS?)

nope, duct tape.

 

[mattfz]

nope, duct tape.

I probably missed it, but what is the standing theory about the chloroform?

 

[Desdemona]

I think the scenarios discussed here are very very close to the truth. but maybe I missed something-- how does the chloroform fit in?

everything about the chloroform bothers me. it has to be part of the equation, under every scenario, right?

chloroform is googled in March, possibly to off CA and GA. but... coincidentally, is found in the trunk.

chloroform is googled in March, after KC sees the "win her over with chloroform" post on myspace, because she doesn't know what it is. but... coincidentally is found in the trunk.

doesn't it seem unlikely, that chloroform is searched in March, but ends up in the trunk as a reaction between household cleaners?

is everyone stuck on the role of chloroform?

(btw, does chloroform actually result from household cleaners, or is that part BS?)

According to trial testimony, the A family had had numerous pets who died, and interestingly they themselves disposed of the animals' bodies. And Cindy appears to have done a good deal of Internet research on veterinary problems and solutions IIRC, including solutions for flea infestation and illnesses.

Was "euthanasia" investigated by OCSO as a search term used in the family computer history?

If you Google "euthanasia" "animal" and "chloroform" there are some interesting results.

Chloroform is now known to be a carcinogen and dangerous to those who use it on others, so it's generally not allowed or recommended in veterinary or animal control settings (with some exceptions) these days. But in the past chloroform was routinely used to euthanize animals. And some people still use/recommend chloroform as a do-it-yourself euthanization method.

I've never read the Anne of Green Gables books. But see this episode, from Anne of the Island:

"We must get rid of him," agreed Anne, looking darkly at the subject of their discussion, who was purring on the hearth rug with an air of lamb-like meekness. "But the question is -- how? How can four unprotected females get rid of a cat who won't be got rid of?"

We must chloroform him," said Phil briskly. "That is the most humane way."

"Who of us knows anything about chloroforming a cat?" demanded Anne gloomily.

"I do, honey. It's one of my few -- sadly few -- useful accomplishments. I've disposed of several at home. You take the cat in the morning and give him a good breakfast. Then you take an old burlap bag -- there's one in the back porch -- put the cat on it and turn over him a wooden box. Then take a two-ounce bottle of chloroform, uncork it, and slip it under the edge of the box. Put a heavy weight on top of the box and leave it till evening. The cat will be dead, curled up peacefully as if he were asleep. No pain -- no struggle."

"It sounds easy," said Anne dubiously.

"It IS easy. Just leave it to me. I'll see to it," said Phil reassuringly.

Accordingly the chloroform was procured, and the next morning Rusty was lured to his doom. He ate his breakfast, licked his chops, and climbed into Anne's lap. Anne's heart misgave her. This poor creature loved her -- trusted her. How could she be a party to this destruction?

"Here, take him," she said hastily to Phil. "I feel like a murderess."

"He won't suffer, you know," comforted Phil, but Anne had fled.

The fatal deed was done in the back porch.​

http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Lucy..._of_the_Island/Adjusted_Relationships_p4.html

:cat: In the book, the attempt is humorously unsuccessful because of an undetected hole in the box.

 

[atthelake]

I think that she finally consulted with a "counselor" who told her that the whole situation was bat "chit" crazy and she finally realized (ding ding ding) that something was horribly wrong. Her daughter hadn't worked a meaningful day in TWO freeking years, had lied over and over again about the non-existant babysitter, had stolen money from her grandparent's account, had tried to claim that her ex-boyfriend (J) was the father of her child, had hidden her pregnancy for 8 months...

Gramma Shirley is in heaven talking with Caylee saying......."see, I told you that FCA hated Cindy more than she loved you"........ and Caylee nods and understands the TRUE meaning of dysfunctional realtionships and how it can kill innocents. CA and FCA and GA can :furious: :furious: while Caylee is up in heaven with Gramma Shirley hand in hand.

I agree. I don't consider what George and Cindy say in the least. They either lie outright or give out what they consider to be ' half truths'. It just complicates matters to try and figure out whether there is a shred of truth in what those two have said.

It doesn't matter whether Casey pretended to go to work for a bit that day and then came back or stayed home all day. For me the phone and computer activity (and now the search) say it all.

At this time, I doubt everything that the A's said too!

Why would she call to make sure no one is coming home, though, when she'd already left the house?



George's testimony about Casey and Caylee leaving at 12:50 pm is, IMO, more likely to have been a mistake rather than perjury (perhaps brought about by feeling like, as former LE, he OUGHT to be able to provide details). He also insisted that a certain TV show was on that wasn't showing at that time on that date.

:waitasec: What did I have for dinner last night? What was I WEARING YESTERDAY!??? *ATL goes to look in hamper* hmmmmmmmmmmmm :waitasec:

 

[atthelake]

According to trial testimony, the A family had had numerous pets who died, and interestingly they themselves disposed of the animals' bodies. And Cindy appears to have done a good deal of Internet research on veterinary problems and solutions IIRC, including solutions for flea infestation and illnesses.

Was "euthanasia" investigated by OCSO as a search term used in the family computer history?

If you Google "euthanasia" "animal" and "chloroform" there are some interesting results.

Chloroform is now known to be a carcinogen and dangerous to those who use it on others, so it's generally not allowed or recommended in veterinary or animal control settings (with some exceptions) these days. But in the past chloroform was routinely used to euthanize animals. And some people still use/recommend chloroform as a do-it-yourself euthanization method.

I've never read the Anne of Green Gables books. But see this episode, from Anne of the Island:

"We must get rid of him," agreed Anne, looking darkly at the subject of their discussion, who was purring on the hearth rug with an air of lamb-like meekness. "But the question is -- how? How can four unprotected females get rid of a cat who won't be got rid of?"

We must chloroform him," said Phil briskly. "That is the most humane way."

"Who of us knows anything about chloroforming a cat?" demanded Anne gloomily.

"I do, honey. It's one of my few -- sadly few -- useful accomplishments. I've disposed of several at home. You take the cat in the morning and give him a good breakfast. Then you take an old burlap bag -- there's one in the back porch -- put the cat on it and turn over him a wooden box. Then take a two-ounce bottle of chloroform, uncork it, and slip it under the edge of the box. Put a heavy weight on top of the box and leave it till evening. The cat will be dead, curled up peacefully as if he were asleep. No pain -- no struggle."

"It sounds easy," said Anne dubiously.

"It IS easy. Just leave it to me. I'll see to it," said Phil reassuringly.

Accordingly the chloroform was procured, and the next morning Rusty was lured to his doom. He ate his breakfast, licked his chops, and climbed into Anne's lap. Anne's heart misgave her. This poor creature loved her -- trusted her. How could she be a party to this destruction?

"Here, take him," she said hastily to Phil. "I feel like a murderess."

"He won't suffer, you know," comforted Phil, but Anne had fled.

The fatal deed was done in the back porch.​

http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Lucy..._of_the_Island/Adjusted_Relationships_p4.html

:cat: In the book, the attempt is humorously unsuccessful because of an undetected hole in the box.

Whooooooooooooooa Desi. I was just looking through what I thought was FCA's excel spreadsheet that FCA did.....and saw stuff around the time of "FCA type" searches and saw fleas........... :waitasec: :waitasec: have others downloaded the excel spreadsheet by JWG and reviewed? :banghead: I'm about to be off ability to see and relook at the spreadsheets!

 

[MaryAnn]

sorry bout that making you sick thing... I only say that because the outline of a child in the fetal position in the trunk was in the FBI report. a child cannot assume the fetal position when already dead and Casey was not going to prop her in that fashion. So she's alive in the trunk at least a short time.

No problem. You are probably right. When I thought about it and had that pic in my mind, I couldn't take it. I wasn't upset with you, but with the thought that someone could actually do that!! :banghead:

 

[bayouland]

Why would she call to make sure no one is coming home, though, when she'd already left the house?

Snip

BBM. Is it possible Caylee was already deceased and hidden in the yard at the time of this flurry of calls??? Just a thought.

ETA.....calling Cindy around 6:30- 7pm to make sure Caylee had not been discovered???

 

[AZlawyer]

BBM. Is it possible Caylee was already deceased and hidden in the yard at the time of this flurry of calls??? Just a thought.

Sure. My point was that, if Casey was leaving the house anyway for the night, the flurry couldn't be to make sure no one was coming home. She certainly knew they'd be home later that night.

 

[bayouland]

Sure. My point was that, if Casey was leaving the house anyway for the night, the flurry couldn't be to make sure no one was coming home. She certainly knew they'd be home later that night.

Ok, I wasn't clear:banghead:

What I meant is this - was Casey calling the house around the time Cindy normally got home from work to check the situation out such as, was Cindy in the house messing around, cooking, etc. or was she out in the yard where she might discover Caylee?

I guess it's a little out there but I can see where Casey would repeatedly call the house, being nervous, hoping Cindy was in the house and not outside where she might discover Caylee???

 

[AZlawyer]

Ok, I wasn't clear:banghead:

What I meant is this - was Casey calling the house around the time Cindy normally got home from work to check the situation out such as, was Cindy in the house messing around, cooking, etc. or was she out in the yard where she might discover Caylee?

I guess it's a little out there but I can see where Casey would repeatedly call the house, being nervous, hoping Cindy was in the house and not outside where she might discover Caylee???

Casey started calling Cindy right as she was leaving the house, though, so she knew Cindy was not there. Also, she knew Cindy normally worked late on Mondays.

Brainstorming is good, though.

ETA: Just for clarity--Casey was not calling the house during the after-4 pm "flurry".

 

[bayouland]

Casey started calling Cindy right as she was leaving the house, though, so she knew Cindy was not there. Also, she knew Cindy normally worked late on Mondays.

Brainstorming is good, though.

ETA: Just for clarity--Casey was not calling the house during the after-4 pm "flurry".

Ok thanks! You are right of course.:banghead:

 

[Justiceseeker35]

I probably missed it, but what is the standing theory about the chloroform?

The choloform searches only points to her state of mind and the fact sinster searches were done on the home pc when only she was at home. Otherwise there was not enough evidence she bought or made or used choloform. It's easier for me to leave the chloroform out of the scenario. Just mho.

 

[Justiceseeker35]

BBM. Is it possible Caylee was already deceased and hidden in the yard at the time of this flurry of calls??? Just a thought.

ETA.....calling Cindy around 6:30- 7pm to make sure Caylee had not been discovered???

I don't believe KC was calling Cindy at 4 pm to see if she was on her way home and going to catch her with a dead child. Honestly if I had just done something awful I wouldn't want to draw any attention to myself and calling someone repeatedly would do just that. If it was me I wouldn't go anywhere near the route to Gentiva which cell phone pings show her heading that direction. Would you even chance a "meeting" on the road?
I think she called her at 6:30 because she had initiated contact repeatedly and then silence. She needed to call her at 6:30 to tell her everything was fine because if she didn't that slience would draw even more attention. And then there's she wanted her Mom off her back so she could have no interruptions with TL!

 

[Just Jayla]

I probably missed it, but what is the standing theory about the chloroform?

Couldn't be fully sleuthed out to smoking gun status, is the short answer...another circumstantial item that lead us in a certain direction, but never to a certain conclusion.

I liked what Dr. Vass had to say, although his science was very new. We also know that the FBI were not ready to state that there were abnormally high levels of chloroform in the trunk, at least not to the level Dr. Vass testified to. So, there was question about the quantity (in terms of detection) of chloroform to begin with, so much so that the state never did fully commit to it as they did the duct tape.

Go back and listen to Jeff Ashton's argument before Judge Strickland as to why Casey should receive the death penalty (as an answer to a ridiculous motion filed by Andrea Lyon). It's a freakin classic video. Or notorious, depending on your stance. But he clearly skirts talking about chloroform as the weapon, instead he very loosely suggests it in conjunction with the duct tape as the more definitive weapon.

The defense tried to float a theory about the chloroform levels that had nothing to do with nothing, IMO. Very weak area for JB, the vocabulary about sent him over the edge, and me off of my chair, laughing at him. So, he took the step of attempting to seperate chloroform from Casey entirely, by implementing Operation Rosebud-Cindy's testimony re: chlorophyll-and making the state look like they were hanging on to a weak theory.

Don't know if that's whatcha meant, but now that I have typed all of this, I am hitting "Submit Reply," darnit

 

[com n sense]

Intermezzo...why do you think Casey called Cindy several times after 6:30 p.m. on that fateful day?

I think she was scared that CA would suspect something if she didn't let on everything was ok.
Had she cut off all contact with CA after she did the deed CA would have investgated alot sooner.
KC didn''t want to cast any suspicions what so ever & would have played the game forever if she could have.

 

[BondJamesBond]

*snipped*

Don't know if that's whatcha meant, but now that I have typed all of this, I am hitting "Submit Reply," darnit

LMAO :floorlaugh:

 

[LolaMoon08]

Cindy and Casey might have had a fight that night, but Lee wasn't there (IIRC he supposedly told Jesse that Cindy told him about the fight), and I doubt it was about the nursing home account money, because Cindy had discovered that weeks earlier.

I remember, a long long time ago, when you stated something that stuck with me all these years. You said that Caylee may have said something that afternoon when she was with Cindy and that could have been what caused a fight between Casey and Cindy that night and I remember how much sense that made at the time and still does.

But, today, I thought even further and wonder with Cindy being a nurse, was she noticing the drastic difference in the way Caylee looked leading up to her death? We all noticed in the last pictures of Caylee and something was really off with her little face. Her little smile and her eyes especially.

With Caylee being able to express herself better with words and possibly even mimicking something her mother would do to her and the drastic difference in her looks, could Cindy have learned of Casey possibly drugging Caylee and that is what the fight was all about?

 

[rose222]

Why would Casey search for 'fool-proof' suffocation, then want Cindy to baby-sit, get out of the house without any shoes for Caylee? She would also needed to have everything required to murder Caylee in the car? Plus plastic bags and such? It seems so unlikely.

 

[Just Jayla]

Why would Casey search for 'fool-proof' suffocation, then want Cindy to baby-sit, get out of the house without any shoes for Caylee? She would also needed to have everything required to murder Caylee in the car? Plus plastic bags and such? It seems so unlikely.

Why would she search for chloroform and neck breaking, and then not poison Caylee or break Caylee's neck in March 2008? She has fits of rage, and then trepidation when it comes time to act out on her nasty instincts. Not guilty trepidation, self-preserving trepidation.

And oftentimes Cindy would save the day before Casey really had to act out. On the 16th, she may have given Cindy one "last chance" to take Caylee, and CA/GA introduced Casey to the stonewall, a concept Casey barely knew. Tony did NOT want Caylee to stay or live with him and his roommates. (This is all speculation to support the theory that she could have been killed later, after the flurry-o-calls....)

There is a fascinating and well-sleuthed thread here about the trunk of KC's Pontiac, with serious discussion about whether or not there is an outline of bodily fluid in the trunk lining. It could suggest Caylee was not in a bag the whole time, or not in plastic bags but maybe in the cloth laundry bag directly for a period-if for some reason Casey brought the laundry bag with them.

I also have concern about the carseats-both the one Cindy had and the one Casey had. This is another item that becomes more relevant in a post-flurry murder in the car.

As awful as it is to type this, the truth is that it would not be hard or very time consuming to bag Caylee's body in the manner Casey did. We have buried pets wrapped in a blanket and plastic, and it did not take very long to prepare them for burial-and we were being tender and thoughtful with them, not hurried and preoccupied. She could have grabbed the stuff on the way out of the house just in case Cindy forced her to implement the plan. IIRC, Casey went by or near Gentiva when she left on the 16th, could have been holding out until the last second? For Cindy to literally save Caylee?