Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

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Yes, this is the article I referred to that has been posted a lot and people are using as their basis for OP bail. However, that doesn't seem to be correct as I found with a bit more digging:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-night-of-Feb-13-2013&p=10917196#post10917196

I quoted SA law many moons ago. My point in posting this article is that these comments by SA lawyers is what they expect to happen in SA. I would like nothing more than OP to be incarcerated immediately if found guilty (which I think he is). However it does seem lawyers who deal with the reality in SA expect him to get an appeal and bail. It will be interesting to see what happens.
 

I agree that this trial could have an effect on potential witnesses being reluctant to come forward. However, I'd like to believe that in a case of murder, witnesses who either saw or heard something extremely relevant would put their fears aside. After all, it could mean the difference between a death sentence or not for an accused in those countries that still have the death sentence.
 
An article by Nick van der Leek where he discusses this issue with Ulrich Roux and David Dadic, both SA lawyers of some renown. I don’t think it has been posted before but apologies if that is incorrect.

Pistorius: If guilty, can he appeal? Would he win it?

http://www.biznews.com/oscar-pistorius-trial/2014/07/pistorius-guilty-can-appeal-win/

Whew! I must say I was happy to read that because it confirmed everything I'd said before, and I'm not a lawyer, but I do a lot of research before committing myself to answering questions of law.
 
With Sept. 11 finally drawing near, today I've started getting butterflies in my tummy. It's reassuring to revisit OP's gun questionnaire. Ty.

IIRC OP had previously applied for a gun license and gotten turned down. Does anybody know why?

Hmm... I just realized that Sept. 11 lands on a Thurs. Could this be an indication that the Judge expects the verdict to take two days?

I posted up-thread either an interview or article that said it was expected to take two days as her reasons for judgment were expected to be very detailed. And we know that OP loves detail. :) :hilarious: :floorlaugh:
 
I quoted SA law many moons ago. My point in posting this article is that these comments by SA lawyers is what they expect to happen in SA. I would like nothing more than OP to be incarcerated immediately if found guilty (which I think he is). However it does seem lawyers who deal with the reality in SA expect him to get an appeal and bail. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Yes, I think you've posted this article a few times to be honest!

I'm saying that other than Dadic's opinion, do you have any other material that says he'll be granted bail if found guilty as I've found and posted several pieces that say or imply the opposite.

I guess we'll find out in 9 days!!
 
There is absolutely no way he'll walk.

The facts and circumstances of this case, the law, and his highly publicized trial will prevent him from doing so.

He will be found guilty IMO. I just hope Milady throws the book at him and sentences him the maximum.

Justice for Reeva.

BIB

I guess it depends what he is found guilty of. If Masipa gives him the "benefit of the doubt" and finds him guilty of CH with a jail term, there is a possibility that his jail time could be reduced to a non-custodial sentence on appeal.
 
He spoke as if his word was fact. If OP is convicted of murder, I can't see that his existing bail conditions would be valid anymore, yet Dadic glosses over that and says he will get bail :confused:

Having a convicted trigger-happy murderer with extremely lax bail conditions on the loose doesn't sound right. Surely his conditions would have to be reviewed? Anyway, if Masipa jails him for the gun charges (and there's no reason why she shouldn't), then it's all moot.

BIB

With no prior convictions, she could also just fine him for the gun charges. Mind you, this will be a bit harder for her to do now that he has wasted so much court time, only to confirm his negligence on one of the charges.
 
You forgot about the 4 independent witnesses that heard Reeva screaming before OP blew her brains out...............M'Lady Misapa cannot discard that evidence because the defence never refuted it once.

I know that Roux didn't raise any defence during the trial about the screams, but he certainly used a lot of smoke and mirrors during the heads of arguments to explain the screams and their timings. I found it interesting that Masipa asked Nel whether he accepts the timings as common cause to which he answered only the cell phone times were common cause
 
BIB

I guess it depends what he is found guilty of. If Masipa gives him the "benefit of the doubt" and finds him guilty of CH with a jail term, there is a possibility that his jail time could be reduced to a non-custodial sentence on appeal.

Here is what I fear:

OP is only found guilty of CH.

OP remains free on bail during his appeal.

Even if the verdict stands, OP gets special consideration due to his disability (and his celebrity status, and his family pulling strings, etc).

As a result, OP skates on prison time.

Instead, OP will "solemnly & dutifully" preform many hours of wimpy celebrity service to the community.

And he will weep (when cameras are on him) for the memory of Reeva, and that awful mistake he made.

Projectile vomiting (me)
 
Here is what I fear:

OP is only found guilty of CH.

OP remains free on bail during his appeal.

Even if the verdict stands, OP gets special consideration due to his disability (and his celebrity status, and his family pulling strings, etc).

As a result, OP skates on prison time.

Instead, OP will "solemnly & dutifully" preform many hours of wimpy celebrity service to the community.

And he will weep (when cameras are on him) for the memory of Reeva, and that awful mistake he made.

Projectile vomiting (me)

I agree with you, I can see this scenario happening as well.
 
Here is the link: http://www.news.com.au/world/oscar-...nkamp-was-killed/story-fndir2ev-1227040036666

(FG...Put your curser in the address bar and right click, then copy. Move to where you want to place it, hit paste, and you have pasted the link.)
Thanks! :smile:
This process I know, but when I receive an email from newspaper, then I don't get it (despite instructions from a WS member some times ago). I will try more often or wait for a visit by my son and his gf, sigh (they both are not so very interested to constantly help me with that :o ) .
 
I am exploring the scenario that OP did not run downstairs to open the front door or turn on the kitchen light or return and attempt to force open the secondary bedroom door after calling NetCare (or Baba). I don't think there was time. What if the doors and the light(s) were already in that state and needed to be worked into OP's version?

He says to Roux in his EIC "I could barely pick Reeva up. I wouldn’t have been able to open the doors and carry her so I ran ... I opened my bedroom door, umm, and I opened the front door." This makes sense. So:

1. Why didn't he unlatch the secondary bedroom door on the way out of the bedroom rather than the ridiculous story of trying to force it open before unlatching it on the way back? The sequence isn't ideal (but not necessarily wrong), however the action is nonsensical and it wastes time.

2. Stander says to Nel there were "lights on in the house at the bottom" when he arrives. Carice says to Nel "the kitchen light was on" when they arrive. Why turn on the kitchen light? It wastes time going to the kitchen.

3. Carice says when she arrives that "the door was very, very slightly open ... and as I touched the door I could open it immediately." The door appears to open outwards so I'm guessing he could have pushed it fully open when he carried Reeva through it. But how was he going to unlock and open the car door whilst carrying Reeva? He seems to have forgotten this in his version. Shame Nel didn't explore this. I assume his car key is with the front door key that he retrieved from on the speaker.

I think the lights were left on because they had both been downstairs at some point. Maybe the front door was left open when Reeva opened it to leave and OP stopped her? And maybe the bedroom door was forced because Reeva had locked him out of the room (hence the damage to the edge of the door)?

ETA BIB See my later post #1459. They may well open inwards, in which case why didn't he open them wide?
 
For anyone that wants a quick review of the closing arguments, I found this was a great resource, it seems to be fairly accurate and the added tweets from other sources also add credence to it.

http://live.nydailynews.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_Murder_Trial_for_Reeva_Steenkamps_Death?Page=100


I love this tweet and remembering when it happened. :bombshell:

POWER987 News
@POWER987News
#OscarPistorius Roux wants to consult with the state psychiatrist ... Nel objects "she is a state psychiatrist" :curses: :sothere:
 
I agree MrF, if they didn't go to sleep as we believe they didn't, various lights would have been on in the house. Frank would have been the person to verify OP's story especially concerning the downstairs lights, but he is nowhere to be seen or heard. jmo :doorhide:
 
I am sure I read somewhere he had taken the test twice. I am not sure there was any reason given but failure seems to be the most likely.

EDIT: It seems there are several parts to the examination for competency to hold a firearm licence. I think OP had to pass all parts but I am not sure he ever completed all the tests. Here is Sean Rens on the stand. I haven't listened to all of it so am not sure of the outcome, ie whether OP did in fact ever pass all the tests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-GdlIaRucI

Relevant testimony of Sean Rens

N: You were in charge of the training and/or assessment the accused had to undergo?
R: I was in charge of the assessment .
N: And the assessment would also include the completion of the unit standard questionnaire?
R: Correct.
N: When the accused arrived at your place did you establish if he had competency before?
R: I definitely did My Lady.
N: What did he say?
R: He produced his competency cards and licence cards that were State issued as proof thereof.
...
R: These are certificates that we issue on completion of a unit standard My Lady.
N: So the accused completed unit standards and you issued the certificates?
R: He completed but I never issued the certificates.
N: Why did you not issue a certificate?
R: We normally do the whole matter – we complete the whole matter at the end and the matter was never completed.
...
R: It’s another certificate for another unit standard My Lady.
N: And that deals with knowledge of the Firearms Control Act?
R: That’s correct My Lady.

“Competency Certificates, Licenses, Permits, Authorizations, and Accreditations
… Significantly, the person must possess the relevant competency certificate, which is issued, among other things, only after the successful completion of training and a test on the efficient and safe handling of a firearm by an accredited training provider or the Safety and Security Training Authority.

Competency Certificate
The FCA requires that an application to possess a firearm … be submitted to a Firearms Officer for the area where the applicant currently maintains or will in the future maintain his or her residence or business. A first-time application for a competency certificate may be granted only if the applicant

• is at least twenty-one years old;
• is a citizen or a permanent resident;
• is a “fit and proper person” for the license he or she is seeking;
• is stable and does not have a proclivity for violence;
• does not have a substance-abuse problem;
• has no conviction within the five years immediately preceding the application for certain crimes related to violence, dishonesty, recklessness, or instability;
• has not “become or been declared unfit to possess a firearm” under the FCA or the 1969 AAA within the five years preceding the application; and
• has completed all the required tests on his understanding of the FCA, the training and test for the safe and effective use of a firearm, and all other applicable training and tests for the specific license he or she is seeking.
…
Upon receiving an application for a competency certificate, the Registrar may launch an investigation for the purpose of determining whether the applicant is a fit and proper person, is in stable mental condition, or has a tendency for violence or a substance-abuse problem. An investigation would be launched if in the five years preceding the application the applicant, among other things,

• has been served with a protection order or accused of domestic violence, necessitating a police visit to his or her residence;
• has been denied a license, permit, or authorization for a firearm;
• has attempted suicide, suffered major depression or emotional problems, or had a substance-abuse problem;
• has been diagnosed or treated for depression, substance abuse, or behavioral or emotional problems;
• has been reported to the police or social services for threatening or attempting violence or other conflict anywhere;

or if in the two years preceding the application the applicant
...

In the course of investigating an applicant for a competency certificate, the Registrar may require the applicant to submit a doctor’s certificate regarding the applicant’s dependence on intoxicating or narcotic substances and/or a report compiled by a psychiatrist or psychologist on the applicant’s mental condition or propensity for violence.

Licenses to Possess Firearms
The FCA requires that the Registrar issue a separate license in respect of each of the following firearms: firearms for self-defense; restricted firearms for self-defense; firearms for occasional hunting and sport shooting; firearms for dedicated hunting and dedicated sport shooting; firearms for private collection; firearms for public collection; firearms for business purposes; firearms for temporary possession.

License to Posses a Firearm for Self-Defense
In this category, the Registrar may issue a license for any shotgun that is not fully or semiautomatic or for a handgun that is not fully automatic. While any natural person is eligible to apply, a license is issued only if the applicant “needs a firearm for self-defense” and cannot “reasonably satisfy the need by means other than the possession of a firearm.” A person is permitted to hold only one license of this kind. A license in this category is issued for a five-year term and may be renewed provided that the licensee continues to comply with all the applicable requirements".

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/southafrica.php

Clearly, looking at the above and with the benefit of hindsight, Oscar is the most inappropriate person imaginable to ever have been issued a gun licence.
 
Relevant testimony of Sean Rens

N: You were in charge of the training and/or assessment the accused had to undergo?
R: I was in charge of the assessment .
N: And the assessment would also include the completion of the unit standard questionnaire?
R: Correct.
N: When the accused arrived at your place did you establish if he had competency before?
R: I definitely did My Lady.
N: What did he say?
R: He produced his competency cards and licence cards that were State issued as proof thereof.
...
R: These are certificates that we issue on completion of a unit standard My Lady.
N: So the accused completed unit standards and you issued the certificates?
R: He completed but I never issued the certificates.
N: Why did you not issue a certificate?
R: We normally do the whole matter – we complete the whole matter at the end and the matter was never completed.
...
R: It’s another certificate for another unit standard My Lady.
N: And that deals with knowledge of the Firearms Control Act?
R: That’s correct My Lady.

“Competency Certificates, Licenses, Permits, Authorizations, and Accreditations
… Significantly, the person must possess the relevant competency certificate, which is issued, among other things, only after the successful completion of training and a test on the efficient and safe handling of a firearm by an accredited training provider or the Safety and Security Training Authority.

Competency Certificate
The FCA requires that an application to possess a firearm … be submitted to a Firearms Officer for the area where the applicant currently maintains or will in the future maintain his or her residence or business. A first-time application for a competency certificate may be granted only if the applicant

• is at least twenty-one years old;
• is a citizen or a permanent resident;
• is a “fit and proper person” for the license he or she is seeking;
• is stable and does not have a proclivity for violence;
• does not have a substance-abuse problem;
• has no conviction within the five years immediately preceding the application for certain crimes related to violence, dishonesty, recklessness, or instability;
• has not “become or been declared unfit to possess a firearm” under the FCA or the 1969 AAA within the five years preceding the application; and
• has completed all the required tests on his understanding of the FCA, the training and test for the safe and effective use of a firearm, and all other applicable training and tests for the specific license he or she is seeking.
…
Upon receiving an application for a competency certificate, the Registrar may launch an investigation for the purpose of determining whether the applicant is a fit and proper person, is in stable mental condition, or has a tendency for violence or a substance-abuse problem. An investigation would be launched if in the five years preceding the application the applicant, among other things,

• has been served with a protection order or accused of domestic violence, necessitating a police visit to his or her residence;
• has been denied a license, permit, or authorization for a firearm;
• has attempted suicide, suffered major depression or emotional problems, or had a substance-abuse problem;
• has been diagnosed or treated for depression, substance abuse, or behavioral or emotional problems;
• has been reported to the police or social services for threatening or attempting violence or other conflict anywhere;

or if in the two years preceding the application the applicant
...

In the course of investigating an applicant for a competency certificate, the Registrar may require the applicant to submit a doctor’s certificate regarding the applicant’s dependence on intoxicating or narcotic substances and/or a report compiled by a psychiatrist or psychologist on the applicant’s mental condition or propensity for violence.

Licenses to Possess Firearms
The FCA requires that the Registrar issue a separate license in respect of each of the following firearms: firearms for self-defense; restricted firearms for self-defense; firearms for occasional hunting and sport shooting; firearms for dedicated hunting and dedicated sport shooting; firearms for private collection; firearms for public collection; firearms for business purposes; firearms for temporary possession.

License to Posses a Firearm for Self-Defense
In this category, the Registrar may issue a license for any shotgun that is not fully or semiautomatic or for a handgun that is not fully automatic. While any natural person is eligible to apply, a license is issued only if the applicant “needs a firearm for self-defense” and cannot “reasonably satisfy the need by means other than the possession of a firearm.” A person is permitted to hold only one license of this kind. A license in this category is issued for a five-year term and may be renewed provided that the licensee continues to comply with all the applicable requirements".

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/southafrica.php

Clearly, looking at the above and with the benefit of hindsight, Oscar is the most inappropriate person imaginable to ever have been issued a gun licence.



Excellent post, thank you. Heaps of interesting info. One wonders how OP ever got a licence. His temper had obviously not been taken into account, although it had already hit the press!
 
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