Time of Death: Rigor Mortis etc

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jilly said:
I'll second that!:woohoo:
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Hey jilly, tku v much! How have you been? Dressed your tree? I have :D.

Y'see? Only 2 days away and a news report came in... Maybe they're on 'the last laps' before the final countdown?

Does anyone else think it's possible he may have returned MUCH later or did I just have a total brain freakout? Say around 4 or 5 am - before Cassie awoke? Then changed, hid things, drove back to hotel: showered, collected his stuff and (allegedly) went to VA depositing 'evidence' en route? He may have stayed a few minutes there and headed straight to Brevard?

Just playing with options...

BUT ... I have got a sinking feeling with this 'Business Appointment'. Have you?
 
i guess it's possible Polk, but it wouldn't be real smart on the perp's part, IMO....so close to the moring hours, but it's possible....

i still tend to think the TOD will be somewhere betw 1 & 3 am...
 
Granted, close ... I thought the same way up to 2 days ago, hon. Reason is that I really believe in this sheriff and his dept. He's been exceptionally careful and deliberate with his very brief word-selectionL:

Soooo.... I have to zone in on a clue he offered a while back, basically asking:

"Did anyone see a vehicle or anything in the area between midnight and 6:00 am, Friday 3 November."

SOMETHING has to be known that we don't know - something that indicates movement, action, identification around and up to that time. As this request only came out a little LATER .... it may have been deduced from the coroner/ME report, if not from LE's ongoing investigations.

I feel MY did not die immediately. IS it possible cassie went through and her mommy managed to get a few words to her?? We'll never know ??
 
Maybe because it is a blank area of time when no one has reported anything happening at the house. The first car that drove by might have been at 6am, and either they called in or was a normal delivery truck in the area - milk, water, or a construction worker on the way to a house to set up for the day. Who knows but LE.

People that were up late and in sight of the house could have said midnight was the last time they noticed something, like suddenly they noiticed the upstairs light inside went off, which could mean she went to bed.

I don't think she died right away either - must have been alive when the killer left because there was so much blood - remember a friend said it was the most brutal crime they had seen in 20+ years in the area. I don't think she could talk though or move. The back of the brain had been damaged and isn't that movement? Where is the speech function? Hey, I didn't realize until today how far the teeth go back. To about the middle of the skull. That mandable joint below the ear is half way back in the skull.



Scandi
 
close_enough said:
bumping this over to page 1....:)
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Eeeeuwww. Well. Let the other sink. Thanks close.

Apologies to all. Brain is cooked... Anyway (she says, turning crimson) .................

I STILL stink MY was murdered closer to 6 am


Any takers, benders or defenders?
 
PolkSaladAnnie said:
Eeeeuwww. Well. Let the other sink. Thanks close.

Apologies to all. Brain is cooked... Anyway (she says, turning crimson) .................

I STILL stink MY was murdered closer to 6 am


Any takers, benders or defenders?
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lol, no big deal, but there's some good info/thoughts on this one, so i wanted to remind ya:)

the ONLY reason i think she was murdered before 6 am, is because Michelle was "cold" & "stiff" at 1:30 pm, on the 3rd....i think a good 10 to 12 hours had passed...
 
close_enough said:
lol, no big deal, but there's some good info/thoughts on this one, so i wanted to remind ya:)

the ONLY reason i think she was murdered before 6 am, is because Michelle was "cold" & "stiff" at 1:30 pm, on the 3rd....i think a good 10 to 12 hours had passed...
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BUT .... (lol, close ...) BUT ..... RM may start any time up to 3 hours and may take up to 12 hours TO FULLY COMPLETE ITS CYCLE.

Sooo... let's say RM commenced within the hour ... by 7 am. 6 hours later the body may have been 80% there. Meredith would not have known. The blood was fresh enough for Cassisy to scamper all over and about ...

OK. I compromise (but it bugs me...) let's say it is not impossible...
 
PolkSaladAnnie said:
BUT .... (lol, close ...) BUT ..... RM may start any time up to 3 hours and may take up to 12 hours TO FULLY COMPLETE ITS CYCLE.

Sooo... let's say RM commenced within the hour ... by 7 am. 6 hours later the body may have been 80% there. Meredith would not have known. The blood was fresh enough for Cassisy to scamper all over and about ...

OK. I compromise (but it bugs me...) let's say it is not impossible...
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you're right Polk...it's not impossible at all...there's a lot of things that could speed up or slow down the process....i'm just thinking along the lines of her body being there in a warm house, rather than being found outside in the cold weather....lots of variables for sure!

Approximate times for algor and rigor mortis in temperate regions

Body temperature - Body stiffness - Time since death

warm - not stiff - dead not more than three hours
warm - stiff - dead 3 to 8 hours
cold - stiff - dead 8 to 36 hours
cold - not stiff - dead more than 36 hours

http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html
 
One thing I've learned is that pregnant women go into Rigor faster. Once a body is at the height of rigor - completely stiff which she was - it stays that way for a long time, up to 36 hours. Then it starts to de-rigorize in the same way it originally happened. The eyes go into rigor first, and the eyes are the last to lose their rigor.

Depending on circumstances like heat in the room, pregnancy, etc, I thought it took 12 hours to reach full rigor. And also have read it can start anytime up to 2 hours, not 3 { :blowkiss: LOL}

First you have to know her time of death. Bleeding as much as she had to where there would be enough blood on the floor for Cassidy to track through and make so many prints, I don't think she died right away, in fact could still have been alive when the killer left. The killer knew with her head split open she wasn't going to suddenly get up and walk!

We had the rumor which could be true that he rented a motel 1/2 mile away from the house. The reason he did that I think was since he had made up his mind she had to die, he wanted to get it over with - probably nervous as he!! I think he waited an hour after the 11pm call, time for her to go to sleep and arrived back there around 12:15 to 12:30, ready to do it. The attack would have happened soon after his arrival I think, and he could have been out of there by say 12:30.

If Michelle was dead by 12:30 am, and it took her only an hour to start to go into rigor because the house would be warm and she was pregnant, the body found at 1:30 the next afternoon would be close to reaching rigor. IMO.

If she died at 6am she would only have been in rigor 61/2 hours saying it took one hour for rigor to start. Stiff, but not comletely. Leann Coburn would know more as she was a mortician.

Scandi

ETA: Oops! Thanks Close. I made an error in that rigor has left completely 36 hours after death. That's a day and a half.. If it takes 12 hours for rigor to be set, it probably takes the same amount of time to go away. Still leaves 12 hours of complete stiffness, HNot that any of this applies to Michelle!~ :waitasec: LOL
 
oh yes, Scandi...any info from Leann Coburn would be greatly appreciated here on this thread:)

interesting stuff.....

my nephew just got here, so i'm out, but i'll be back!!:)
 
Close, I PM'ed Leann and told her we would love her input here. I've got to get food and myself ready for a partee that starts at 4, so will check in and then be back tonight. Scandi
 
scandi said:
Close, I PM'ed Leann and told her we would love her input here. I've got to get food and myself ready for a partee that starts at 4, so will check in and then be back tonight. Scandi
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Brill! thanks scandi, leann's a mortician! Would be great to have her knowledge. ENJOY your "partee" ....
 
so at autopsy Michelle wasn't in rigor....if you back track from the time of the autopsy, 36 hours would be 11:30 pm on November 2nd....i understand all of this stuff isn't 'in stone' & there's lots & lots of variables....since Michelle still had some partially digested food in her stomach, i think WhiteWolf is right (along with some others)....Michelle might have been killed at midnight, or even a tad bit before....it's not unusual for someone to still be up piddling about in the house, if a friend had left at 10:30 pm......

oh geeezzz, i need to go to bed...
 
close_enough said:
so at autopsy Michelle wasn't in rigor....if you back track from the time of the autopsy, 36 hours would be 11:30 pm on November 2nd....i understand all of this stuff isn't 'in stone' & there's lots & lots of variables....since Michelle still had some partially digested food in her stomach, i think WhiteWolf is right (along with some others)....Michelle might have been killed at midnight, or even a tad bit before....it's not unusual for someone to still be up piddling about in the house, if a friend had left at 10:30 pm......

oh geeezzz, i need to go to bed...
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Kinda of makes me wonder what WCSO think of the info I sent them lol.

When I sent what they asked for, I forgot to edit my notes from it. I had estimated TOD from between 11:15pm Thursday to 3:35am Friday.

So they either :laugh: or went :eek:

Sami
 
Samiya said:
Kinda of makes me wonder what WCSO think of the info I sent them lol.

When I sent what they asked for, I forgot to edit my notes from it. I had estimated TOD from between 11:15pm Thursday to 3:35am Friday.

So they either :laugh: or went :eek:

Sami
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Sami,

I know very little about all this rigor, lividity, and all this kind of stuff but I will agree with you on the 1115 to 0335 time period. Based on other known events this would be the time frame which "works". JMO

ETA - "he was at certain places at certain times"
"frequently checking his voicemail"
 
raisincharlie said:
Sami,

I know very little about all this rigor, lividity, and all this kind of stuff but I will agree with you on the 1115 to 0335 time period. Based on other known events this would be the time frame which "works". JMO

ETA - "he was at certain places at certain times"
"frequently checking his voicemail"
Click to expand...
Ahhhhh....There You Is :)

Wonder if the battery went dead in the phone. It was awfully busy by the sounds of it, lol.

Sami
 
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