Timeline

[Concerned Papa]

I hadn't thought about the floor plans. Do you happen to have the location of those floorplans available so I can start making models to more exacting measures - it would certainly beat the big blocks I'm currently using lol.

I don't know if this will help or not, but the floor plan I've been using for "John" came from this real estate sales site:

http://www.407re.com/RetreatatTwinLakes

 

[AJ Noiter]

I don't know if this will help or not, but the floor plan I've been using for "John" came from this real estate sales site:

http://www.407re.com/RetreatatTwinLakes

That is exactly what I was looking for, thanks a lot!

 

[Just K]

RE: the WJLA screenshot, taken on dark rainy night:

It appears as if this video was shot at a time when several people had porch lights on.

By 7:15 PM on February 26th, 2012 (East Coast Winter Lighting) it would have been DARK. Sunset was at 6:23 PM almost a full hour before the shooting and it was raining and little to no moonlight.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=867&month=2&year=2012&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

More than one witness stated that there was ONLY ONE PORCH LIGHT ON at the time of the altercation and ultimate shooting.

It was even darker than this WJLA video portrays. John could have only seen the details that he describes if he were right there, outside, possibly with his flashlight.

IMO, John may have been the other man with a flashlight and GZ was the other. BUT, neighbors report seeing the Flashlights come on after the gunshot.

 

[AJ Noiter]

RE: the WJLA screenshot, taken on dark rainy night:

It appears as if this video was shot at a time when several people had porch lights on.

By 7:15 PM on February 26th, 2012 (East Coast Winter Lighting) it would have been DARK. Sunset was at 6:23 PM almost a full hour before the shooting and it was raining and little to no moonlight.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=867&month=2&year=2012&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

More than one witness stated that there was ONLY ONE PORCH LIGHT ON at the time of the altercation and ultimate shooting.

It was even darker than this WJLA video portrays. John could have only seen the details that he describes if he were right there, outside, possibly with his flashlight.

IMO, John may have been the other man with a flashlight and GZ was the other. BUT, neighbors report seeing the Flashlights come on after the gunshot.

Sunset is defined as the time that the center (not the "top" or "bottom") of the sphere produced by the sun is 0° off the horizon. As indicative of the sun's "top" still being above horizon, it's not "dark." "Dark" does not happen until after Astronomical Twilight which is when the sun's center has gone below 18° below the horizon. This time period (Astronomical Twilight) is when Mr. Martin was pronounced deceased.

This is exactly why I posted the information I did back on the first page. "Sunset", "Sunrise", "Dusk", "Dawn", etc are too generic.

 

[AngelWings444]

Since there is no discussion in the "Scene Recreation" thread, I will ask it here. AJ - thank you for all the hard work you are putting into this, but what exactly are you doing? Are you doing your own recreation like the State did with GZ? Doing stuff similar to what Papa has done? Will you be using evidence released?

Sorry for the OT or if you have covered it prior to my question. Thanks in advance.

 

[AJ Noiter]

Since there is no discussion in the "Scene Recreation" thread, I will ask it here. AJ - thank you for all the hard work you are putting into this, but what exactly are you doing? Are you doing your own recreation like the State did with GZ? Doing stuff similar to what Papa has done? Will you be using evidence released?

Sorry for the OT or if you have covered it prior to my question. Thanks in advance.

No worries and it's fine to discuss/ask questions/etc about it in the thread, I just didn't want evidence and debate about the evidence to come into play with it.

Being that we're "web sleuths" we can't really go to the scene and that's where this program will come in. All it will be is a program that you can run where you can go to the scene for whatever purpose you may have. Maybe you'd like a better idea of what it looks like from a human's perspective as you're walking the same path that Mr. Martin or Mr. Zimmerman did. Maybe you'd like to get a better idea of how long it would've taken Mr. Martin to run home if he had gone straight there. Maybe you want to put yourself in Mr. Martin's shoes and try to find spots where he could have hidden while Mr. Zimmerman was looking for you.

As for things that would be displayed that could be considered evidence, the only thing that I've considered is a landmark where Mr. Martin's body was laying - no human outline or anything like that, something like a little flag or something like that. I am open for suggestions though so feel free to post with your ideas!

And for clarification, you can discuss in that thread.. I just don't want people to go into it debating things that belong in other threads. Know what I mean? For example, I'm sure Concerned Papa will (hopefully) tell me how off my headings and dimensions are. As long as the discussion is about improving something with the software so it can be released sooner I don't care what is discussed there

 

[Just K]

Sunset is defined as the time that the center (not the "top" or "bottom") of the sphere produced by the sun is 0° off the horizon. As indicative of the sun's "top" still being above horizon, it's not "dark." "Dark" does not happen until after Astronomical Twilight which is when the sun's center has gone below 18° below the horizon. This time period (Astronomical Twilight) is when Mr. Martin was pronounced deceased.

This is exactly why I posted the information I did back on the first page. "Sunset", "Sunrise", "Dusk", "Dawn", etc are too generic.

Exactly, I saw your post but I disagree with the assumption that it was not dark. We disagree. I know exactly how dark it is at 7:15 PM EST in late February...for many reasons which I will not state here... I know without a doubt how dark it was that night at 7:15 PM EST. And, it was raining and there was no discernible moonlight, per the witnesses. It was so dark at 7:17 PM that one witness thought GZ was black.

 

[Concerned Papa]

I am bringing this post from the FBI thread for timeline related comments.

~Snipped For Specific Timeline Response~

We will find out more with the discovery files and the 7-11 and clubhouse video will be particularly helpful but this what I've read so far.

1)TM left 7-11 at 6:30 at the latest and it was 0.8 miles away. If he had just walked straight home he would have made it back before GZ even saw him.

2)It's not till 58 seconds into GZ's 911 call that he says TM is coming towards him. Looking at a map of the area and where GZ was parked and the clubhouse distance TM should have already been passing GZ at that point if he had been walking at a regular speed. Maybe TM wasn't walking home at that point and had taken shelter under the awning by the clubhouse (as Crump seemed to suggest) and there is certainly nothing at all criminal about that but what happens next is very important.

3)TM focuses on GZ and approaches his vehicle. Keep in mind that GZ's call starts off with TM being (likely) more then 200 feet away and GZ didn't anticipate TM walking up on his vehicle. Now maybe GZ is really so dumb that he didn't realize he parked directly in the path of the person he was watching but it's also possible that what he described was accurate and that TM had come to check him out.

4)According to GZ TM not only approaches his vehicle he even circles it. That's some pretty weird behavior and IMO you can hear GZ getting nervous in his call. Basically, at that moment GZ's suspicions were validated. Something was kind of "wrong" with TM. If I thought someone was watching me like GZ was doing I might give them a hard look as I walked past their vehicle but I sure as he'll would never circle it.

I, personally, fail to see the relevance of one inch traveled by Trayvon Martin outside the property confines of The Retreat. The 911 call made by George Zimmerman was connected at 7:09:34 pm. For the first [1:03] of this call, TM was at or near the clubhouse according to GZ.

911 dispatcher: OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?

Zimmerman: That’s the clubhouse.

911 dispatcher: He’s near the clubhouse now?

Zimmerman: Yeah [1:03]

In Zimmerman's response above he continued by saying:

Zimmerman: now he’s coming toward me. [1:03]

Clearly indicating TM had left the clubhouse area and began walking in GZ's direction.

Irregardless of where GZ was parked, TM walked to the point George said the following to the 911 dispatcher:

Zimmerman: He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

Please notice the image attached below. Between the clubhouse, and where TM seems likely ro have started running, there was 407 feet covered by Trayvon Martin from approximately [1:03] to [2:08] in this 911 call. That's only ONE MINUTE AND FIVE SECONDS.

According to the rate of walking speed in the comment below, it should require 1 minute and 32 seconds to walk this 407 feet:

Thank you for the welcome.

317 feet at 3mph would be 72 seconds. (380 feet would be 86 seconds.)

3mph is 4.4 feet per second.

3mph is just a very rough average for walking speed though, so there is some guesswork involved in the equation since actual speed easily could have been a little slower or faster.

Yet TM covered this distance in 1 minute and 5 seconds according to GZ's statements in the 911 call, clearly indicating a direct, faster than average, purposeful path of movement for TM.

As to this notion of TM "circling" GZ's vehicle, do you realize how many ADDITIONAL feet of neccesary distance coverd in this 1 minute and 5 seconds would be added to the 407 feet?

An average bumper to bumper length for an SUV is 17 feet +/-. The circumference of a 20 foot circle is, pi x diameter, or 3.14 x 20 which equals approximately 63 feet. One lap around GZ's vehicle ALONE would add 14 seconds to the timeline for his movements. THREE LAPS, as some have said, would add 42 seconds.

The bottom line? The path of movement for Trayvon Martin shows NOTHING other than a direct path of travel on his part. He did not tarry, stop, case the houses, OR circle George Zimmerman's vehicle.

It was raining. He was just talking to his girlfriend while headed home.

 

[LambChop]

I am bringing this post from the FBI thread for timeline related comments.



I, personally, fail to see the relevance of one inch traveled by Trayvon Martin outside the property confines of The Retreat. The 911 call made by George Zimmerman was connected at 7:09:34 pm. For the first [1:03] of this call, TM was at or near the clubhouse according to GZ.



In Zimmerman's response above he continued by saying:



Clearly indicating TM had left the clubhouse area and began walking in GZ's direction.

Irregardless of where GZ was parked, TM walked to the point George said the following to the 911 dispatcher:



Please notice the image attached below. Between the clubhouse, and where TM seems likely ro have started running, there was 407 feet covered by Trayvon Martin from approximately [1:03] to [2:08] in this 911 call. That's only ONE MINUTE AND FIVE SECONDS.

According to the rate of walking speed in the comment below, it should require 1 minute and 32 seconds to walk this 407 feet:



Yet TM covered this distance in 1 minute and 5 seconds according to GZ's statements in the 911 call, clearly indicating a direct, faster than average, purposeful path of movement for TM.

As to this notion of TM "circling" GZ's vehicle, do you realize how many ADDITIONAL feet of neccesary distance coverd in this 1 minute and 5 seconds would be added to the 407 feet?

An average bumper to bumper length for an SUV is 17 feet +/-. The circumference of a 20 foot circle is, pi x diameter, or 3.14 x 20 which equals approximately 63 feet. One lap around GZ's vehicle ALONE would add 14 seconds to the timeline for his movements. THREE LAPS, as some have said, would add 42 seconds.

The bottom line? The path of movement for Trayvon Martin shows NOTHING other than a direct path of travel on his part. He did not tarry, stop, case the houses, OR circle George Zimmerman's vehicle.

It was raining. He was just talking to his girlfriend while headed home.

It does not appear TM was ever running towards the back gate so at the time GZ said that he was not being truthful. jmo

 

[cityslick]

It does not appear TM was ever running towards the back gate so at the time GZ said that he was not being truthful. jmo

How can you tell this? GZ lost TM once TM got in the cut through. How would you know that TM did not sprint through the cut through between house, toward the back gate (and also his house)?

 

[Concerned Papa]

How can you tell this? GZ lost TM once TM got in the cut through. How would you know that TM did not sprint through the cut through between house, toward the back gate (and also his house)?

I don't disagree that we have little information about what happened after TM headed toward that back gate and his residence.

However, 100% of his every step was witnessed by GZ from the clubhouse till he turned down that back sidewalk. The point I'm making is, I don't see any time being spent in "casing the houses", "circling the vehicle", or anything other than a purposeful, deliberate path of movement to the spot "where the sidewalks meet".

 

[LambChop]

GZ was parked on Twin Trees. Heading towards the back gate would mean TM headed down Twin Trees and GZ claims to have lost TM at the cut through. With GZ that close behind him I would not blame TM for hiding until he felt he had lost GZ instead of making a run for it. It's all open back there and he would have been an open target for anyone with a gun. jmo

 

[wowitsdark]

I don't disagree that we have little information about what happened after TM headed toward that back gate and his residence.

However, 100% of his every step was witnessed by GZ from the clubhouse till he turned down that back sidewalk. The point I'm making is, I don't see any time being spent in "casing the houses", "circling the vehicle", or anything other than a purposeful, deliberate path of movement to the spot "where the sidewalks meet".

My assumption would be that whatever behavior GZ believed to be suspicious happened prior to his making the phone call. It's what prompted the call.

What is known about the clubhouse? Is it open all the time? Only for special events? Was it open for use at the time TM was spotted in the vicinity? Or was it locked up and dark, making TM's being there part of what seemed 'off' about his presence?

ETA: Where is it that we heard about 'circling the vehicle'? From GZ himself, or is it something someone he talked to said as a 2nd hand story? My experience is that even good and honest people, when repeating stories they were told, assume they have an accurate picture in their minds but may not really have it all correct.

 

[KateNY]

'circling the vehicle'

http://southflorida.sun-sentinel.co...rge-zimmerman-20120503,0,5322374.story?page=2

Source: Zimmerman says Trayvon circled his SUV, frightened him

Zimmerman never told the dispatcher he was speaking to that the teen was circling his vehicle

~snips

At one point, about halfway through the four-minute call, he told the dispatcher, "Now he's just staring at me. … Now he's coming towards me. He's got his hand in his waistband. … He's coming to check me out."

Trayvon then disappeared,

At an April 20 bond hearing in Sanford, Dale Gilbreath, an investigator for Special Prosecutor Angela Corey, testified that Zimmerman told authorities he was frightened because Trayvon circled him while he sat in his SUV.

 

[Concerned Papa]

Remember this part of Robert Zimmerman's account of his son's movements and actions leading up to the encounter with TM?

ZIMMERMAN: When the dispatcher said we know longer need you to do that, and George acknowledged OK. He no longer knew where Trayvon was.

So he continued walking down the sidewalk directly in front of him to the next street to get an address.

He got an address.

He was walking back to his vehicle.

Trayvon came from his left side

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hanni...-trayvon-martin-shooting?page=2#ixzz1vb1YkhW6

I noticed this front view pic of 2861 Retreat View in the doc dump. 2861 is the end unit adjacent to the sidewalk RZ says George was walking on at "the next street":

If George was actually getting an address, he should have had no trouble or lost time because it's well illuminated and in a direct line of sight from the end of the sidewalk at "the next street".

 

[Just K]

GZ, leaves out details.

He says TM came at him from his left, BUT GZ may have shined his flashlight into TM's eyes, virtually blinding him for an instance.

If he approached TM, shined his light in TM's eyes and/or grabbed TM and TM shoved him off GZ could still say TM came at him.

BUT, he would be leaving out all of the instigating actions that MIGHT HAVE lead TM to come at GZ.

I want to know if TM pushed off or away from GZ.
I want to know if GZ's DNA is on either of TM's elbows, knees, or bottom of his shoe. I believe GZ grabbed TM and TM shoved off and started to get away but then GZ got up and came after him with the gun drawn.

 

[cmsg2002]

I apologize in advance if this has been posted elsewhere within this thread, but I just came across this a few mins. ago.

It shows Zimmerman fired 1 minute, 57 seconds after he hung up.

This being from a timeline developed by SPD based on dispatcher calls, etc.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...gela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino

1 min, 57 seconds, IMO, is not alot of time considering GZ exited his vehicle, walked or ran in the direction he had last seen TM, located TM, exchanged words with TM, had a 'life threatening' physical altercation/scuffle with TM...and ultimately shooting TM. 1 min. 57 seconds.....makes one think very hard and long about this whole case.

 

[KateNY]

Concerned Papa >

hope you don't mind, I swiped a pic from your post22 and fiddled with it

Would it fit in the timeline IF GZ did in fact go down to that street for the addy on the front of the blgds , and continue on down that street,, then cut through between the buildings to the back sidewalk where TM was, to cut him off. Looks like there is 2 places where GZ could cut through.

(looks like bushes between those bldgs, someone could get all scratched up)

see the red line, for proposed GZ path

 

[Concerned Papa]

I apologize in advance if this has been posted elsewhere within this thread, but I just came across this a few mins. ago.

It shows Zimmerman fired 1 minute, 57 seconds after he hung up.

This being from a timeline developed by SPD based on dispatcher calls, etc.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...gela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino

1 min, 57 seconds, IMO, is not alot of time considering GZ exited his vehicle, walked or ran in the direction he had last seen TM, located TM, exchanged words with TM, had a 'life threatening' physical altercation/scuffle with TM...and ultimately shooting TM. 1 min. 57 seconds.....makes one think very hard and long about this whole case.

Thanks. I hadn't seen this before. So the SPD is now giving us a "timeline", eh? IMO, this is nothing more than a blatant attempt, by the same police force who let George Zimmerman walk in the first place, to erase some of the time discrepancy problems of Zimmerman's storyline that I have been pointing out from the beginning of this case.

In a timeline included in evidence documents released last week, Sanford police spelled out down to the second, what happened the night George Zimmerman fatally shot Trayvon Martin, based on time-stamped calls to their dispatch center.

It shows Zimmerman fired 1 minute, 57 seconds after he hung up.

*1911:12 - Call received from George Zimmerman reporting suspicious person

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...gela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino

Attached below is Event Report # 20120571656 for Zimmerman's call. Please note that the call was placed and CONNECTED at 19:09:34, NOT 19:11:12 used as the beginning point of their "timeline".

19:11:12 is clearly shown as the time of the dispatcher's creation of the first entry into this Event Report. Anyway you analyze the call times, the 4 minute and 7 second call was received and connected at 19:09:34 and ended at 19:13:41, with the shot being fired at 19:17:20, a full 4:39 later.

1917:20 - Shot fired; screams from Zimmerman cease

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...gela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html#document/p44

 

[Concerned Papa]

Concerned Papa >

hope you don't mind, I swiped a pic from your post22 and fiddled with it

Would it fit in the timeline IF GZ did in fact go down to that street for the addy on the front of the blgds , and continue on down that street,, then cut through between the buildings to the back sidewalk where TM was, to cut him off. Looks like there is 2 places where GZ could cut through.

(looks like bushes between those bldgs, someone could get all scratched up)

see the red line, for proposed GZ path

First of all, feel free to use and/or modify any of the images I put in this forum. I'm just trying to figure out the truth.

Yes, clearly the additional distance you are suggesting he could have walked would eliminate some of the time discrepancy problem within his storyline.