Todd Kohlhepp - Profile of a Killer?

[PositiveLight]

O/T I apologize for skipping through to post this...probably someone has already expressed this, sorry.

Please, if you are on the side of "he became a monster because of his childhood," please understand that there are those of us who raised our children the best we could, with no abuse, either physical or mental, who still ended up raising a child with mental issues. My daughter has diagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder, among other issues. She is also convinced that my hubby beat her as a child, that he has several DUI's (he's never even been pulled over), and other scenarios that simply DID NOT HAPPEN - not even close. She was spanked a few times for things like stealing and hiding my wedding ring and a cellphone at age 8-9. She swears to this day she doesn't remember ever hiding the ring under my bed or hiding the cellphone in her closet (we only have one child, so it had to be her unless it was a poltergeist or something.) You can razz me about the spankings if you want to, but they were normal spankings, not beatings. She's our biological child and we've never separated, so I know how she was raised - and yet - here she is in her mid twenties, kinda mentally ill. We're about as middle class normal as you can get. I mean, we don't even argue much; we "discuss" issues. haha.

My point is, if you're going to theorize about how a mentally ill person is created, please have a little compassion for parents like me. I really, really do appreciate the fact that we can all speak our minds here on WS, but I'm not sure I can keep reading this particular thread because it just breaks my heart and makes me feel like a failure.

I personally can understand where you are coming from.
I honestly think there are just wires crossed that even the most loving situations cannot fix. My daughter is Bi Polar and a handful. Going through a manic episode at the moment actually. So don't blame yourself! You are doing and have done all you can to help her. At a certain point it's out of our hands. They grow up and we can no longer help them. Spankings are totally different than beatings. Do not judge you at all! Been there too!
Time out only gives them the time to figure out how to do it again without getting caught! :facepalm: Granted it works on some children, but not all of them.
And yes I agree with the making up stuff that didn't happen!
That's why I say that with some situations it doesn't matter what you do... there's not always a good ending. Can't blame the parents all the time. We don't know how much of what he's saying is even true. I actually take his thoughts with a grain of salt.
Having a child with issues tears a family apart. Causes so much stress and fear and it's constant. Even when they grow up we STILL worry and are scared of THAT phone call.

 

[b_lab7410]

what a lot of people do not realize or care to admit is that even in the same family, the children may not be treated the same. the parent may play favorites due to many things. could be as simple as who the child looked like, or the family situation when the child was born. all children are not treated equally within the same family..

That's so very true. I hate to say it, but Southeast Asians like my family (and extended) utilize a top-down power structure... a male is always at the top in households. It's some irritating caste-like type method of establishing male firstborn is special, and you will certainly find households in which the females have zero value when it comes to purchasing decisions, residential location, whom to marry, etc etc. There is also a certain violence that is limited to females, and whereas this could happen in any culture, marginalizing women culturally is bound to bring about the more drastic violence against them. Stoning of women to god knows what... ugh

 

[Aeronomy]

You aren't a failure! I firmly believe that some kids are just bad seeds and are born with issues from the start, and no amount of proper love and parenting can change that. Sure, environment can certainly have an effect on a child, but I just don't believe that environment is always to blame. Some people just aren't wired correctly, IMO.

What do you mean by "bad seed"? Do you mean kids born with imbalances and/or neurological defects/disorders that grow up to lead a life of violent crime regardless of their environment? I guess I just think it does have more to do with not being "wired correctly." IMO, having neurological imbalances unfortunately does predispose someone to a greater likelihood of developing psychological disorders. But to enter into the violent crimes of serial killers and the like, it's not JUST neuro imbalances and disorders - somewhere along the line, someone grossly failed them.

Someone mentioned previously in this thread or another that they've never heard of a serial killer coming from a non-dysfunctional family/background and I believe there's definitely a reason for that.

 

[enelram]

no one truly knows what goes on behind closed doors within families. some parents put on an excellent front when in reality they may be horribly abusive or neglectful. from birth to around 5 yrs. there is a window in child development where the child learns/-is taught so many things that if not learned or taught in this time period, they may never, ever have the chance to correct this
parenting deficit. during this period of time a child learns and develops many traits such as kindness, empathy, conscience, love, compassion /-all predictors of future behavior.

 

[tlcya]

This nature or nurture debate always comes up in cases where people want to dive into what makes a killer tick.

We sure won't be resolving that question here. I appreciate those who have shared their own experiences with children who have been diagnosed as having issues. Your insights are so valuable.

Please remember that discussing TK and his childhood is not a condemnation of anyone. It is simply curious minds questioning - was TK born or made this way?

Nobody will get a satisfactory answer. But the question will continue to be asked.

 

[Aeronomy]

I think TK's dad gave up on him early on and it's one of the underlying factors in TK's behavior.

It was obvious he wasn't even around when the rape happened. The arresting officer stated he wasn't there when TK was arrested. The victims' statements also mentioned TK being unsupervised and how he liked it that way. The victims told the arresting officer that TK's dad was always gone from the home.

I think TK wanted to be like his dad, though. A lot of boys are like that, more so when their father's don't give them the attention they crave. From what I gather so far, his dad had a lot of guns and went and did as he pleased. His dad took off for a few days with his gf and it almost seems as though TK decided to do the same in his own way. He had his dad's guns, took one, went to the girl he'd always liked and did what he wanted. He didn't care about whose feelings it would hurt, just like he felt his dad didn't care about whose feelings would be hurt.

I don't know what would have happened if he'd not went out to Arizona to live with his dad, but once he was sentenced to those 15 years - not being released until he was 30 - his chances at any real rehabilitation were gone. Did society fail him? Is he taking his vengeance out on society at-large or is he just a boy still doing what he perceived his dad to be doing all those years ago--whatever he wants without any regard to who it hurts?

 

[LozDa]

Not one person in the world's past and current population has been able to distinguish fully if a person's character is down to nature or nurture. We are certainly not going to solve it here.

Whilst I appreciate the personal stories and viewpoints and thank people for being so honest, I think we should steer the conversation back round to TK and his profile to avoid the conversation spiralling into an emotional debate that neither side can win.

We simply don't know if TK was born evil or not. We don't know if all the love in the world would have saved him.

What we do know is that he didn't have a happy childhood, which is why that is being discussed. Not because we are saying that had things been different then the situation wouldn't have happened, but because it undoubtedly had an effect on him in the same way all our experiences have an effect on us.

That's all. No blame game, no boiling it down to the parents or to nurture on its own. It's just a discussion of nurture being involved in moulding him. Just as nature has.

 

[Aeronomy]

I don't think anyone here is saying it's the parents fault if a child grows up and becomes a criminal or has psychological problems. I think what we're saying is that it's of our (mine, at least) opinion that nurture does play a role when a child grows up to be a functional member of society and a serial killer.

 

[b_lab7410]

I think TK wanted to be like his dad, though. A lot of boys are like that, more so when their father's don't give them the attention they crave. From what I gather so far, his dad had a lot of guns and went and did as he pleased. His dad took off for a few days with his gf and it almost seems as though TK decided to do the same in his own way. He had his dad's guns, took one, went to the girl he'd always liked and did what he wanted. He didn't care about whose feelings it would hurt, just like he felt his dad didn't care about whose feelings would be hurt.

Agreed, they tend to want to emulate their father's version of masculinity in those terms. They say psychopathy runs in males/paternal lineage, and mental disorders tend to run in females/maternal lineage. A few posts back, I had suggested TK being left with weapons around the house wasn't as to the extent of it. I wonder if his father's own sense of pride and narcissism contributed somehow, in regards to taking him on hunts, teaching him how to use those weapons at an early age. This would extend beyond ordinary hunting, if both were psychotic during this period (or he prior stages), to bond with his dad. If that's the case, that explains his readiness with weapons to some degree. They weren't even locked up, I believe. Honestly, they should have been.

 

[tlcya]

Not one person in the world's past and current population has been able to distinguish fully if a person's character is down to nature or nurture. We are certainly not going to solve it here.

Whilst I appreciate the personal stories and viewpoints and thank people for being so honest, I think we should steer the conversation back round to TK and his profile to avoid the conversation spiralling into an emotional debate that neither side can win.

We simply don't know if TK was born evil or not. We don't know if all the love in the world would have saved him.

.

snipped and bolded by me for focus.

 

[cujenn81]

O/T I apologize for skipping through to post this...probably someone has already expressed this, sorry.

Please, if you are on the side of "he became a monster because of his childhood," please understand that there are those of us who raised our children the best we could, with no abuse, either physical or mental, who still ended up raising a child with mental issues. My daughter has diagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder, among other issues. She is also convinced that my hubby beat her as a child, that he has several DUI's (he's never even been pulled over), and other scenarios that simply DID NOT HAPPEN - not even close. She was spanked a few times for things like stealing and hiding my wedding ring and a cellphone at age 8-9. She swears to this day she doesn't remember ever hiding the ring under my bed or hiding the cellphone in her closet (we only have one child, so it had to be her unless it was a poltergeist or something.) You can razz me about the spankings if you want to, but they were normal spankings, not beatings. She's our biological child and we've never separated, so I know how she was raised - and yet - here she is in her mid twenties, kinda mentally ill. We're about as middle class normal as you can get. I mean, we don't even argue much; we "discuss" issues. haha.

My point is, if you're going to theorize about how a mentally ill person is created, please have a little compassion for parents like me. I really, really do appreciate the fact that we can all speak our minds here on WS, but I'm not sure I can keep reading this particular thread because it just breaks my heart and makes me feel like a failure.

You are not a failure. I sincerely hope nothing anyone on WS said has made you feel that way.

I (personally) believe individuals diagnosed as having one of the "dark triad" disorders--Machiavellanism, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, or Anti-Social Personality Disorder--are born that way. BUT, that doesn't necessarily mean their true "nature" is this evil bad seed either. I believe the disorder develops due to a neurological problem in the brain and the root cause of that neurological problem could be many different things--underdevelopment of the brain, head trauma, or encephalitis, for example. While I do believe that triggered events cause the disorder to manifest itself in those who are predisposed, I don't find it helpful for anyone involved to automatically assume that the parents are responsible for it. It could really be anything. A high-stress situation that the child's parents have no control over. Being bullied by other kids at school. It can even be triggered by an illness unrelated to the brain but one that causes the child stress.

I'll give you an example from my personal life. My mother has bipolar disorder. Her mother had bipolar disorder. Logic would seem to follow that I also have bipolar disorder. Let me put it this way: the odds are not in my favor. YET... here I am at the ripe old age of 35 and I've never experienced symptoms of a manic episode, or a depressed episode, or even hypomania. That is not to say that I never will. But, sometimes I wonder if being hypervigilant about my mental health over the years has kept the disorder from developing. I know the importance of seeking intervention... EARLY & OFTEN. I've seen the many ways that choice can make or break someone. If I start having trouble sleeping, I am requesting medicinal help from my doctor. If I start to feel more overwhelemed or stressed out than usual, I schedule more frequent appointments with my doctor and we brainstorm different ways I can reduce my anxiety. I also speak openly about my anxieties and worries and the things that are bothering me much more than my mother or her mother ever did. They liked to suffer in silence. Me... not so much. I honestly believe these proactive measures have saved my life. Literally and figuratively.

Unfortunately, people who are genetically predisposed to certain illnesses aren't always aware of it. In fact, I'd venture to say that awareness is rare. Some illnesses aren't always as clear cut or obvious as bipolar disorder. It may have skipped a generation or two. A predisposition may exist due to trauma or underdevelopment. It is nearly impossible to pinpoint the cause of such disorders because too many factors come into play. Accidents will continue to happen. Defective genes will continue to be passed on to future generations. Bullies will always exist and trauma can always occur. It never does good to place the actions of one on the head of another. No one is to blame but himself. The focus should be on recognizing patterns of behavior that lead to such atrocious acts of violence and figuring out a way to prevent it from ever happening again.
YKWIM?

ETA: I wanted to clarify that I did NOT see the conversation refocus requests before I replied with this ten-page story. I wanted everyone to know that I was not ignoring those requests and just couldn't bring myself to delete it after spending half an hour typing it all out. :shame:

 

[StarryNight]

What do you mean by "bad seed"? Do you mean kids born with imbalances and/or neurological defects/disorders that grow up to lead a life of violent crime regardless of their environment? I guess I just think it does have more to do with not being "wired correctly." IMO, having neurological imbalances unfortunately does predispose someone to a greater likelihood of developing psychological disorders. But to enter into the violent crimes of serial killers and the like, it's not JUST neuro imbalances and disorders - somewhere along the line, someone grossly failed them.

Someone mentioned previously in this thread or another that they've never heard of a serial killer coming from a non-dysfunctional family/background and I believe there's definitely a reason for that.

I guess we will agree to disagree on this one. I understand what you're saying. I definitely do believe that people can be a product of their environment, but I also believe that some people are just "bad seeds" from birth, regardless or whether they had a healthy, loving upbringing or not. I won't go into further detail, due to a lot of posts that have started to derail this thread.

 

[Tulessa]

This nature or nurture debate always comes up in cases where people want to dive into what makes a killer tick.

We sure won't be resolving that question here. I appreciate those who have shared their own experiences with children who have been diagnosed as having issues. Your insights are so valuable.

Please remember that discussing TK and his childhood is not a condemnation of anyone. It is simply curious minds questioning - was TK born or made this way?

Nobody will get a satisfactory answer. But the question will continue to be asked.

Such a good post tlcya. I've had to step away. This case is giving me nightmares.

 

[Tulessa]

If psychopathy is genetically determined, one should expect some abnormality in the brain, the immediate source of psychopathic traits. A possible candidate for this abnormality has recently been identified in a study at University of Wisconsin, Madison. Brain scans revealed that psychopathy in criminals was associated with decreased connectivity between the amygdala, a subcortical structure of the brain that processes negative stimuli, and the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (vmPFC), a cortical region in the front of the brain that interprets the response from the amygdala. When the connectivity between these two regions is low, processing of negative stimuli in the amygdala does not translate into any strongly felt negative emotions. This fits well into the picture we have of psychopaths. They do not feel nervous or embarrassed when they are caught doing something bad. They do not feel sad when other people suffer. Though they feel physical pain, they are not themselves in a position to suffer from emotions hurts.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-superhuman-mind/201212/the-making-serial-killer

 

[human]

there is a ton of info on brain development, attachment, effects of violence and abandonment, and on and on re infants, toddlers as well as effects of later trauma. If we want to stop this kind of crime, it would be prudent to look at the info out there. It is there and documented.

 

[LozDa]

there is a ton of info on brain development, attachment, effects of violence and abandonment, and on and on re infants, toddlers as well as effects of later trauma. If we want to stop this kind of crime, it would be prudent to look at the info out there. It is there and documented.

Unfortunately (or fortunately in actuality), for every one that goes on to commit a crime like this, there are 30 others* who go on to lead healthy, 'normal' lives. So, whilst the information is out there and well documented on these individuals when they come around, identifying them in the first place is almost impossible because of their propensity to project a life of no consequence.

The fact that psychopaths with personality disorders can blend into life so well is the very thing that both identifies them and hides them.

*not actual figures, clearly. Just illustrative.

 

[rsd1200]

I've allowed this topic to become personal and I apologize for that. I've requested that my posts be removed. If they're not that is fine as well. Based on personal experiences, I think I should steer clear of this topic though. I do agree though, nurture can play a role, b/c of nurture, my child may still be struggling, but he is alive.

 

[human]

Unfortunately (or fortunately in actuality), for every one that goes on to commit a crime like this, there are 30 others* who go on to lead healthy, 'normal' lives. So, whilst the information is out there and well documented on these individuals when they come around, identifying them in the first place is almost impossible because of their propensity to project a life of no consequence.

The fact that psychopaths with personality disorders can blend into life so well is the very thing that both identifies them and hides them.

*not actual figures, clearly. Just illustrative.

The info is out there so we can raise healthy children. Although there are certainly issues such as schizophrenia that we do not know much about . The methods are good for children. Holding, responding to needs, discussing and choosing solutions instead of punishment, and on and on. Providing interventions when there is trauma. So many positive apporoaches instead of the punishment and not dealing with emotions that we are used to using

 

[BlkMtnGirl]

OT last time ;-) Woah. I'm sorry I took the convo down the wrong path, and thanks to all who responded. (Yes, of course I came back -- you knew I would! Haha) I realize now I was taking it way too personally. So sorry! I've followed KB and Charlie's disappearance since the first week, and like Tulessa, I'm having nightmares. I've never followed a serial killer thread before, so I was unprepared for the discussion. Carry on, and see ya in the other threads.

 

[Tulessa]

:loveyou: