Too many clues

[wonderllama]

In my books, there's a fundamental problem with formulating a theory which includes information given by the Ramsey's if you actually believe the Ramsey's are responsible for the crime.

 

[otg]

(snip by otg)

Maybe PR made that phone call from a different phone than she says she did and it wasn't until AFTER she made the 911 call that she went and ripped the note out and placed it on the stairs?

Same phone? Or did McGucken’s have a 2-for-1 special when they were purchased?





One is the wall phone in the kitchen; the other is the one (I didn’t know about until recently) in the basement. Who knows where the 911-call was made from? The one on the wall is kind of hard to not hang up and not realize it.
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[DeeDee249]

Okay I am not a profiler but the only thing about the RN that points to Patsy IMO (and everybody here knows I don't give a #$%^ about what handwriting "experts" say,so no,it's not because of those who claim she wrote it)is the fact that the practice note says Mr AND Mrs .So why would the writer decide then to change it to Mr. only if not to distance himself from it AND from the crime(in this case her).Better not to draw attention to myself,lets address it to him and leave myself out of it?

Another reason for the change from Mr & Mrs to JR alone is that one of the "clues" the RN was supposed to be leaving was that it was written by people with a problem with JR's business ties to the "country that it serves". By addressing the note to JR alone, plus the ransom amount equalling his bonus that year, it is meant to reinforce the idea that it WAS a disgruntled employee or someone with an ax to grind with Access Graphics.

 

[geojeffrey]

My theory is that PR did clearly write the ransom note, and JR knows this because BOTH parents are covering up a terrible event that took place between JonBenet and her brother. Some 9 year old boys don't understand the consequences of their actions, and probably he did not intend to seriously injure her.

When the parents saw what happened they made some terrible early decisions because they did not want to lose BOTH children. Why else would they be so evasive and damn weird? They went to SUCH great lengths to MISLEAD. I can't believe they would so effectively cover for each other, but with an unfettered and relentless zeal, they actively worked to cover up the truth so they would not lose their son as well.


The decision to enact this cover up was made at the worst moment of their life, when they found their daughter dead. In addition, PR was recovering from cancer and chemotherapy, life was very stressful and they had expensive tastes and big aspirations. It's unconscionable that they pointed the finger at others and that they wasted police resources and taxpayer money, but their initial actions were based on preservation of their remaining family unit.

 

[Steely]

In my books, there's a fundamental problem with formulating a theory which includes information given by the Ramsey's if you actually believe the Ramsey's are responsible for the crime.

:waitasec:Are you saying "remember to consider your source" or do you mean you need to exclude all the information from a suspect(s)? Or do you mean formulating a theory which hinges on accepting as fact information from the suspects? I'm not sure I understand whose post or what you are referring to with your statement. Forgive me, if I am intruding on this topic. I think it is possible to formulate a THEORY which includes some information given by the suspect(s) even if you think they are responsible for the crime because lies sometimes have an element of truth to them and some truths are told through parapraxis (Freudian slips), failure to "stick to the story", or failure to have lies prepared for unanticipated questions. For instance, when JR said he removed JB's shoes but she was supposed to have been in boots...I think that "shoes" might be the truth and he forgot the "story" had her wearing her boots. BTW, I appreciate your posts, you really get me thinking! :blowkiss:

 

[DeeDee249]

As far as what JB wore that night- LE has photos from the White's party- don't know if her footwear was shown or if it was possible to tell from the photos of they were shoes or boots, but I can see some people (especially dads) referring to a child's footwear as "shoes" even if they were sneakers or boots.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

As far as what JB wore that night- LE has photos from the White's party- don't know if her footwear was shown or if it was possible to tell from the photos of they were shoes or boots, but I can see some people (especially dads) referring to a child's footwear as "shoes" even if they were sneakers or boots.

I agree. I refer to footwear in general as "shoes" unless the context demands I be specific.

 

[wonderllama]

Steely, I was referring to when you mentioned something about the note being on the staircase.

Given I suspect the Ramsey's, I must logically take what they say with a grain of salt.

I also agree, it would be hard to maintain a story like this, or perhaps if you convince yourself it's true it becomes easier.

Thanks for the kind words, I'm only new here but keen to jump into the deep end.

 

[wonderllama]

As far as what JB wore that night- LE has photos from the White's party- don't know if her footwear was shown or if it was possible to tell from the photos of they were shoes or boots, but I can see some people (especially dads) referring to a child's footwear as "shoes" even if they were sneakers or boots.

I can't even get dress or skirt right with my 5 year old and she constantly tells me off....d'oh!

 

[Steely]

My theory is that PR did clearly write the ransom note, and JR knows this because BOTH parents are covering up a terrible event that took place between JonBenet and her brother. Some 9 year old boys don't understand the consequences of their actions, and probably he did not intend to seriously injure her.

When the parents saw what happened they made some terrible early decisions because they did not want to lose BOTH children. Why else would they be so evasive and damn weird? They went to SUCH great lengths to MISLEAD. I can't believe they would so effectively cover for each other, but with an unfettered and relentless zeal, they actively worked to cover up the truth so they would not lose their son as well.


The decision to enact this cover up was made at the worst moment of their life, when they found their daughter dead. In addition, PR was recovering from cancer and chemotherapy, life was very stressful and they had expensive tastes and big aspirations. It's unconscionable that they pointed the finger at others and that they wasted police resources and taxpayer money, but their initial actions were based on preservation of their remaining family unit.

geojeffrey, these were some of my thoughts years ago but I was never able to express them as eloquently as you. I was away from the case for many years and when I recently came back to reading here, I found so much more information has become available in the way of photos, testimony, warrants, great sleuthing, etc. Seeing the crime scene photos has made me really struggle to process it all and I am not sure what I believe anymore.

 

[MurriFlower]

A big clue to me was the fact the Ramsey's totally ignored the ransom note's warnings, in fact went in the opposite direction. I think PR wrote it, I am not 100% sure about JR's involvement in the note, but I think PR thought she was so clever and had written an excellent ransom note. I think the ransom note was the major reason JR made sure they lawyered up quickly and had seperate lawyers, he would have thrown her under the bus if the hand writing analysis had come back 100% certain it was Patsy.
If it turns out the Ramsey's didn't write this note my guess would be a highly educated meth addict, there is no way this ransom note was serious.

You see I can't follow that logic. If as you believe, she wrote all the threats, why then would she then deliberately ignore them?

Don't you think it would have been an excuse to say, hold off until the next morning? That way, they could have gotten rid of the body and all the 'evidence' that PP and BR was supposed to secreted out of the house, and therefore keep it just between themselves. Call the cops the next day and say, we did what they said, but they didn't call us to deliver the ransom. Then the cops have to find JBR, (that could take weeks/months) and by that time, all the evidence, if any, would have been harder to trace back to them.

 

[Steely]

Steely, I was referring to when you mentioned something about the note being on the staircase.

Given I suspect the Ramsey's, I must logically take what they say with a grain of salt.

I also agree, it would be hard to maintain a story like this, or perhaps if you convince yourself it's true it becomes easier.

Thanks for the kind words, I'm only new here but keen to jump into the deep end.

Got it! Let me say... I think PR did write the note so I don't believe a word she said about it. So I must have done a terrible job getting my point across and I'm sorry about that! I am officially a fence sitter because of the touch DNA and a few other things but I lean towards RDI and the more I read the more I lean. I decided to pick one of the R's as my "suspect" and then try to imagine scenarios that would explain the evidence while keeping in mind even the so-called evidence may be suspect. I decided to start with PR because 1)I think she wrote the note 2)LE suspected PR did it because of bedwetting. I think LE is privy to a lot more information than we are so they probably know something we don't.

 

[Steely]

(snip by otg)


Same phone? Or did McGucken’s have a 2-for-1 special when they were purchased?





One is the wall phone in the kitchen; the other is the one (I didn’t know about until recently) in the basement. Who knows where the 911-call was made from? The one on the wall is kind of hard to not hang up and not realize it.
.

I've got no idea what I said prompted this funny comment...but I'm sure it is because I did a poor job saying what I was trying to say. My point isn't about phones. I don't know which phone they used and wasn't trying to guess...YOU were the one in fact who got me thinking more about the note because I hadn't even known about the phone in the basement until you mentioned it. When I read about it it got me thinking more about the 911 call and possible scenarios for what people say they think they hear.

 

[Steely]

I haven't been around much since I started out on the fence but I'm now 99.99999999% sure that thing was written by Patsy.
The more I read about her ,the more I am convinced.
The only thing where my opinion differs from most RDI's ,I believe Patsy wrote this before she killed JB.

What part if any do you think JR and BR played in the cover-up and how much do you think they knew and when? I don't rule ANYTHING out, so I'd really like to hear your ideas.

 

[Steely]

As far as what JB wore that night- LE has photos from the White's party- don't know if her footwear was shown or if it was possible to tell from the photos of they were shoes or boots, but I can see some people (especially dads) referring to a child's footwear as "shoes" even if they were sneakers or boots.

Yes, DeeDee 249...I agree, with what everyone commented about it might not indicate anything. I wasn't trying to imply that it was a clue for sure...just that it was a little red flag for me that it is possible.
I wrote:
"For instance, when JR said he removed JB's shoes but she was supposed to have been in boots...I think that "shoes" might be the truth and he forgot the "story" had her wearing her boots."

I'm sorry I didn't hi-light the word "might", phrase this better, or use a different example which is NOT from this case.

I realize people differ in their facility for certain types of memory (auditory, visual, etc.), and long and short term memory. I do try to keep that in mind when I read testimonies. For example, one person with really keen auditory memory might be able to repeat many of the funny lines from a movie after watching it once while another person with poor auditory memory might not be able to remember even one of them even after watching the same movie several times.

If someone has really poor visual memory, just think what a problem that would be for them when they are being interrogated! Their details might change a lot not because they are lying but because they are struggling to remember or failing to remember.

 

[claudicici]

Can you expand on this? What makes you think that? I am very curious. What do you believe the motive was? Why would Patsy want to get rid of her "trophy child"? I've gone over the possibility that maybe JBR's murder was planned to get her in(famous) but one of the reasons I am skeptical of that is most of the murders that happened before JBR, it was the murderer that got the fame, not the victim: OJ Simpson, Ted Bundy, Jack the Ripper, Zodiac. They are household names; not their victims, except for Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman but OJ was the real "star" of that case. It wasn't until the 2000's with cases like Danielle Van Dam, Samantha Runnion, Caylee Anthony, and Elizabeth Smart in which the child victims were the ones who were known to the public and the ones who were shown on the news, not the killers. That's the one thing that pulls me back from thinking JBR's murder was planned to make her a star---What murder was Patsy basing that off of? I know OJ had just ended but in that murder, it was the defendant that really became the star. Maybe the murder wasn't intended to make JBR famous, but to make Patsy famous?

I've posted my theory in the theory thread.After everything I read I basically believe PR's decision was motivated by her religious believes.She saw JonBenet almost like a Jesus,a Redeemer ...I believe PR was abused herself as a child and when she found out JonBenet was going through the same thing she went over the edge.In the bible "ransom" is the price or payment made for our redemption, as when it is said that the Son of man "gave his life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28; Comp. Acts 20 )
I believe she sacrificed JonBenet so JonBenet could return to being the perfect angel...and she knew she would reunite with her soon.Victory.Saved by the Cross.

 

[claudicici]

In your theory,how much does JR know and why did he agree to cover up for her?If he did that he basically disrespected and put his ENTIRE family in danger.This doesn't make sense to me,risk EVERYTHING for a deranged woman?
In my "it was premeditated /RDI" scenario they were both in it and it had something to do with their religious beliefs.

I go back and forth on that one.
But IMO now I feel like JR was kind of done with life...after Beth died,after his first marriage.I think he was just kind of going along with whatever PR's antics were at the time.He was dependant on her and her family .This was not a loving relationship,IMO.
There's just little clues in his behaviour that make me think that,like when he was holding Burke asking "why?" but he never seemed to ask "who"?
I think he went along with it because he couldn't take the "why?",he rather went on acting half dead ,like a robot and remained as unemotional as he could.

 

[claudicici]

What part if any do you think JR and BR played in the cover-up and how much do you think they knew and when? I don't rule ANYTHING out, so I'd really like to hear your ideas.

I think they both knew and kept quiet.
I think they both knew that night.
I think one of them is possibly the abuser ,I can imagine it to be Burke in a "playing Doctor" sort of way but enough to push PR over the edge.

 

[otg]

I've got no idea what I said prompted this funny comment...but I'm sure it is because I did a poor job saying what I was trying to say. My point isn't about phones. I don't know which phone they used and wasn't trying to guess...YOU were the one in fact who got me thinking more about the note because I hadn't even known about the phone in the basement until you mentioned it. When I read about it it got me thinking more about the 911 call and possible scenarios for what people say they think they hear.

Like I mentioned, Steely, I didn’t know about the phone in the basement until recently, and had never heard it mentioned. I know it wasn’t the point you were trying to make in your post, but since you did bring it up...

I know it always baffled me, as it did others, that the supposed “unsuccessful hang-up” could go unnoticed by Patsy after placing the 911-call for obvious reasons. Phones which can be used as either (wall phone or table-top) have a small piece of plastic (usually) which is turned or flipped appropriately for how it is used. If it is on the wall, this piece of plastic is what holds the receiver in place and keeps it from falling off. If it is on a table or desk, the piece of plastic is turned so it doesn’t interfere with removing the receiver.

My reason for pointing this out is that it is what makes me think now that the 911-call had to have been placed from the basement (or possibly some other phone somewhere else). It couldn’t have been made from a wall phone because of these reasons. If Patsy didn’t hang up the wall phone enough to disconnect the connection, nothing would have been keeping the receiver in place and it would have fallen to the countertop.

Further, if that reasoning is correct, it goes to why they would “say” that the call was placed from the kitchen -- if they admitted they were in the basement, it proves their guilt.

Did I explain that so it makes sense?
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[madeleine]

I go back and forth on that one.
But IMO now I feel like JR was kind of done with life...after Beth died,after his first marriage.I think he was just kind of going along with whatever PR's antics were at the time.He was dependant on her and her family .This was not a loving relationship,IMO.
There's just little clues in his behaviour that make me think that,like when he was holding Burke asking "why?" but he never seemed to ask "who"?
I think he went along with it because he couldn't take the "why?",he rather went on acting half dead ,like a robot and remained as unemotional as he could.

you know what's interesting about this case to me?sometimes I feel he totally manipulates her,sometimes I feel it's the other way around,weird,cause in other cases you can tell exactly who the brain is....
there is something else I never sae before when following a case.....these two don't seem like two separate people most of the time.....they are just......"he PACK"........sometimes it's like their personalities are gone and it's just them as the couple......