Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[minor4th]

Sorry i should have been clearer in the point i was trying to make which was that those screams/shouts for help might be different events.

Might be - might not be. Not proven either way by the evidence.

 

[james83]

Ok, so the Burgers, nearly two football fields away, heard the shots, people screaming, but the cricket bat was too quiet to hear? Where do human screams measure on the db scale?

128dB Loudest human scream

133dB Gunshot

 

[DebinGA]

As of this very minute, I would have to say not guilty on premeditation.

I might agree if OP had stopped with the hip shot and her anguished reaction, but he didn't.

 

[Viper]

actually the ballistics expert said the shots were bang bang bang bang, no pause.

And stipp heard additional sounds that woke him up earlier - and he identified those sounds as gunshots.

Here's what i think the evidence has pretty well established, and everything else is interpretation by the witnesses:

1. There were 2 sets of loud bangs within minutes of each other

2. After the first set of bangs and before the second set of bangs there was loud screaming/wailing

3. The second set of bangs happened very close to 3:17

4. Screaming occurred up to and perhaps throughout the 2nd set of bangs at 3:17

5. For a period of time after the 3:17 bangs there was silence and no screaming or yelling was heard

6. The gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door

7. One of the sets of bangs was gunshots

8. The other set of bangs was the cricket bat hitting the door - or it was some other sound that has not been explained or alleged by either side

That is such a great point, both sets of bangs occur then stipp hears oscar's cry for help as mentioned in his affidavit, which of course means at that point the toilet door is yet to be broken down.
So in theory the first bangs stipp heard could have been the bat hitting the door(in a threatening way), 2nd bangs gunshots, then stipp leaves his house to head to oscar's before the toilet door is broken open meaning he wouldn't have heard that part.

^^this!!!^^

 

[BritsKate]

128dB Loudest human scream

133dB Gunshot

Lol. I was gonna post the very same. There's also this, which I found interesting too...

A scream is similar to a baby's cry; there is nearly a
universally-understood agreement as to its meaning
regarding human calamity, and its frequency content
seems almost tailored to frequencies of maximal
sensitivity on an equal-loudness contour.

http://www.audioforensics.com/PDFs/AES122_Scream.pdf

 

[james83]

Just a thought, but imagine if Mrs Stipp testifies this coming week and says she heard a third set of bangs after her husband set off to Oscar's house, Oscar would have a hard time explaining that one.

 

[minor4th]

Ok, so the Burgers, nearly two football fields away, heard the shots, people screaming, but the cricket bat was too quiet to hear? Where do human screams measure on the db scale?

Average female scream for 30-40 year old is 113.8 dB

http://www.audioforensics.com/PDFs/AES122_Scream.pdf

 

[MeeBee]

128dB Loudest human scream

133dB Gunshot

"Loudest human scream ever measured at a distance of 8 feet 2 inches."

Could Oscar or Reeva's screams match the loudest human scream ever recorded? And we are to believe the screams could reach the home of the Burgers, but not the cricket bat?

Also:


At 140 db "all frequencies are painful; extremely damaging to hearing no matter how short the time exposure."

OP fired shots next to his own ears in a small bathroom where sound reverberates. This could explain why he didn't hear Reeva screaming after the bullet hit her hip if she did scream.

 

[Rumpole]

Just a thought, but imagine if Mrs Stipp testifies this coming week and says she heard a third set of bangs after her husband set off to Oscar's house, Oscar would have a hard time explaining that one.

She might say she saw a one-armed man running away from the scene... then a whole new TV series could be created... "Spring for your life"

Oscar escapes and devotes himself to nipping about on his blades looking for the real perp with one arm.

Sure to be a winning formula with the amputee crowd



ETA
reference to TV series from the 60's

Run for your life
Run for Your Life (TV series) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MeeBee]

Average female scream for 30-40 year old is 113.8 dB

http://www.audioforensics.com/PDFs/AES122_Scream.pdf

Thank you. So it defies logic to say that the Burgers could not have heard the bat hitting the door because it's too quiet but they could hear the screaming/wailing/shouts. Either they could hear both or neither.

 

[BritsKate]

Was that after the gunshots though? Sorry, I'm not trying to be contrary, I just missed it if that is what was said.

ETA: I listened again - security was called while screaming was heard. Then shots were heard - then they went to bed.

I believe they were pretty blunt in their testimony that they didn't want to get involved initially. Unfortunately, this happens all the time in criminal cases. It may be morally repugnant to some but it alone doesn't discredit their testimony.

MOO

 

[james83]

"Loudest human scream ever measured at a distance of 8 feet 2 inches."

Could Oscar or Reeva's screams match the loudest human scream ever recorded? And we are to believe the screams could reach the home of the Burgers, but not the cricket bat?

Also:


At 140 db "all frequencies are painful; extremely damaging to hearing no matter how short the time exposure."

OP fired shots next to his own ears in a small bathroom where sound reverberates. This could explain why he didn't hear Reeva screaming after the bullet hit her hip if she did scream.

Well you would be quick to point out that Oscar cannot be convicted on anything that isn't certain and guess work cannot be used, so on that basis yes a court would have to presume that they could match the highest scream ever recorded, you can't have it both ways.

 

[MeeBee]

Well you would be quick to point out that Oscar cannot be convicted on anything that isn't certain and guess work cannot be used, so on that basis yes a court would have to presume that they could match the highest scream ever recorded, you can't have it both ways.

Lol, maybe they could just measure Oscar's scream themselves.

 

[james83]

Thank you. So it defies logic to say that the Burgers could not have heard the bat hitting the door because it's too quiet but they could hear the screaming/wailing/shouts. Either they could hear both or neither.

Based on what?, a youtube video.
For my money a scream could travel further than a bat hitting a door, how do you know how hard the door was hit?.

 

[Val1]

Why can't you surmise that it was the gunshots?

For a very simple reason, Roux himself said that there was no way that RS could have screamed after the head shot where her brains were left on the back of the toilet lid, yet there are numerous independent witnesses testifying to just that, a woman's screams AND the sound of a man's voice until the second set of bangs when it all stopped.

 

[james83]

Lol, maybe they could just measure Oscar's scream themselves.

I would personally love to see him scream in court, lol.

 

[minor4th]

Thank you. So it defies logic to say that the Burgers could not have heard the bat hitting the door because it's too quiet but they could hear the screaming/wailing/shouts. Either they could hear both or neither.

Gunshots are louder that was posted previously too -

Shot from a 9 mm pistol is 159.8 db

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

Avg. Female scream - 113.8 db

Make of it what you will ....

 

[MeeBee]

Based on what?, a youtube video.
For my money a scream could travel further than a bat hitting a door, how do you know how hard the door was hit?.

This is in response to LemonMousse's posts that the bat could not be heard from far away because it's too quiet, measured at 114db compared to 140 db. If the screams were around the db of the bat then it defies logic to say one could be heard and not the other. Obviously we cannot measure Reeva's screams now but we can measure Oscar's. This has nothing to do with a YouTube video.

 

[minor4th]

For a very simple reason, Roux himself said that there was no way that RS could have screamed after the head shot where her brains were left on the back of the toilet lid, yet there are numerous independent witnesses testifying to just that, a woman's screams AND the sound of a man's voice until the second set of bangs when it all stopped.

That's circular reasoning - you're accepting the conclusion that it was female screaming after the first bangs to come to the conclusion that the first bangs couldnt have been gunshots.

It's equally logical that the first shots were gunshots and the subsequent screaming was Oscar.

 

[Val1]

Thank you. No one has said to assume his version is true. There's absolutely nothing wrong with considering it though. All that's being floated are possibilities. It's getting a little old being accused of being an apologist. All one needs to do is look at my initial posts on this forum to see that is far from the truth. I was totally ready to convict. I have real doubts now though and these doubts disturb me. All I am doing is forcing myself to look at all angles of possibility to make sure that I am giving the accused a fair shot and not missing anything and sussing through all the possible scenarios to make sure I've considered everything. If I were on the jury this is exactly what I would be doing. It doesn't mean I believe him. It means I need to be very sure of his guilt before condemning him a cold blooded killer. I could never on good conscious send a man to prison for the rest of his life on this evidence alone.

bbm - Part of the problem may be due to Roux doing exactly just that and then after the witness has reluctantly responded to a hypothetical, some have stated that as the witness' actual testimony.