Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[steveml]

Not sure what you are getting at with this, he is clearly referring to a women, you are reading to much into it.
He has no reason to lie about whether he thought it was a woman or not.

So it is incorrect then? If I think it's important that's up to me, unless there's a rule that things can only be asked if they fit in with your conclusions. You don't have to respond you know.

 

[james83]

I can't believe anyone can seriously entertain the prospect that upon finding Reeva was not in bed Oscar ran around the house doing all the things he claimed he did whilst screaming like a woman, LOL, and dont forget he briefly stopped screaming like a woman to shout help like a man off the balcony :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[steveml]

I don't believe he cocked up. I don't believe he remembered what his testimony was 'supposed' to be. Of four references to the 'someone', 3 of them specifically referenced a female.

If an English teacher asked me, I'd ask if the witness was a native English speaker because many foreign languages have a specific male/female article that could, in my opinion, account for the inclusion of both genders when he clearly indicated a female three other times.

Thanks for your response. That's all I wanted to know.

 

[james83]

So it is incorrect then? If I think it's important that's up to me, unless there's a rule that things can only be asked if they fit in with your conclusions. You don't have to respond you know.

But we are talking about a man who heard shots and went to help, a man who had nothing but good things to say about Oscar is his testimony when he arrived at his house, it just doesn't fit to doubt his integrity, i understand somewhat the reservations people have about the other witness's but not stipp, of course i accept we all form our own judgements and you are entitled to yours.

 

[minor4th]

We're not talking about decibels - we're talking tone and pitch. Looks like you're making the same mistake Roux is about to.

Is anyone saying a man can't make a sound as loud as a woman's?

The issue is whether they sound the same. Db meter won't tell you that.

We're also talking about DB - how far different sounds can be heard.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Actually the ballistics expert said the shots were bang bang bang bang, no pause.

And Stipp heard additional sounds that woke him up earlier - and he identified those sounds as gunshots.

Here's what I think the evidence has pretty well established, and everything else is interpretation by the witnesses:

1. There were 2 sets of loud bangs within minutes of each other

2. After the first set of bangs and before the second set of bangs there was loud screaming/wailing

3. The second set of bangs happened very close to 3:17

4. Screaming occurred up to and perhaps throughout the 2nd set of bangs at 3:17

5. For a period of time after the 3:17 bangs there was silence and no screaming or yelling was heard

6. The gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door

7. One of the sets of bangs was gunshots

8. The other set of bangs was the cricket bat hitting the door - or it was some other sound that has not been explained or alleged by either side

I am sure the ballistics expert said there was a gap between the first and second bullet and that is when RS slumped onto the magazine rack, then the 2nd, 3rd and 4th bullets could have been fired in quick succession, ie douf,douf,douf.

 

[Val1]

Yes?

Despite what people might think of OP... his testimony is in evidence.. and it stands unless it is refuted.

People my consider that not much... but it's a heck of a lot more than pure speculation "I think such and such happened" with no evidence to support it at all.

I don't recall hearing him testify, yet... that implies that the prosecution has had a chance to challenge his assertions and the defense to knock those challenges down, which we keep getting told isn't done yet.

 

[minor4th]

I think any eye or ear witness is going to have some amount of uncertainty and inaccuracy.

 

[LemonMousse]

"Loudest human scream ever measured at a distance of 8 feet 2 inches."

Could Oscar or Reeva's screams match the loudest human scream ever recorded? And we are to believe the screams could reach the home of the Burgers, but not the cricket bat?

Also:


At 140 db "all frequencies are painful; extremely damaging to hearing no matter how short the time exposure."

OP fired shots next to his own ears in a small bathroom where sound reverberates. This could explain why he didn't hear Reeva screaming after the bullet hit her hip if she did scream.

What's how loud they are got to do do with anything? If I shout as loud as my dog barks do I sound like my dog.

And do you have any idea how much louder 140 db is than 125 (or whatever it is?)

Rule of thumb - increase in just 10 db doubles the loudness. So 135 is twice as loud as 125.

I have tried to explain this before.

 

[MeeBee]

We're not talking about decibels - we're talking tone and pitch. Looks like you're making the same mistake Roux is about to.

Is anyone saying a man can't make a sound as loud as a woman's?

The issue is whether they sound the same. Db meter won't tell you that.

No, the issue is whether the Burgers could hear a man or woman screaming but not a bat striking a door. If the average db of a woman screaming is right around the db of a bat striking a door, then either the Burgers could hear neither or they could possibly hear both. Can't have it both ways.

 

[Viper]

We're not talking about decibels - we're talking tone and pitch. Looks like you're making the same mistake Roux is about to.

Is anyone saying a man can't make a sound as loud as a woman's?

The issue is whether they sound the same. Db meter won't tell you that.

LOL! So true! :cheer:

 

[MeeBee]

What's how loud they are got to do do with anything? If I shout as loud as my dog barks do I sound like my dog.

And do you have any idea how much louder 140 db is than 125 (or whatever it is?)

Rule of thumb - increase in just 10 db doubles the loudness. So 135 is twice as loud as 125.

I have tried to explain this before.

The average db of a woman screaming is 113, right around the db of that bat strike. You brought this up before to explain why the bat could not have been heard by the Burgers because it's too quiet. Then, theoretically, neither could a person screaming.

 

[BritsKate]

I am sure the ballistics expert said there was a gap between the first and second bullet and that is when RS slumped onto the magazine rack, then the 2nd, 3rd and 4th bullets could have been fired in quick succession, ie douf,douf,douf.

He did.

"Between the first shot and the second shot there's a break. I cannot determine how long but there's definitely a break," he said. "By looking at the wounds, the deceased changed position between the first position and the second position.
If the bullets had been fired in quick succession, he said that Ms Steenkamp, 29, would have suffered successive injuries to her groin or stomach, which was not the case."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...uck-experts-say/story-fnb64oi6-1226859970727#

 

[lisasalinger]

I might agree if OP had stopped with the hip shot and her anguished reaction, but he didn't.

I agree that is an extremely important point in laying the foundation for premeditation, as well as many other points we have been laying out so vehemently on this forum. Don't get me wrong, I think he's guilty as sin, but we have to hear about motive before I can in good conscience say it has been proven to me.

Motive is essential in this case. You will very rarely ever hear those words out of my mouth, but the Judge and the public need to understand WHY he would do this. We know that he shot her. He doesn't dispute that. Now we just need to get inside his head and understand why. Otherwise, there would be too much doubt as to his true intentions.

This week will be huge. Nel is too smart of a Prosecutor (from all I have heard) to not understand that he has to nail the motivation piece of it. I think (and hope) it's coming.

 

[LemonMousse]

We're also talking about DB - how far different sounds can be heard.

Difficult to talk about without a solid understanding of what the figures mean.

Do you know, for example, that 200 db is 100,000,000 times louder than 1 db.

And that 135 is twice as loud as 125?

I do advise people to read that wiki page before they make assessments based on db.

 

[james83]

No, the issue is whether the Burgers could hear a man or woman screaming but not a bat striking a door. If the average db of a woman screaming is right around the db of a bat striking a door, then either the Burgers could hear neither or they could possibly hear both.

How can you know how loud the sound of the bat on the door was?, it is very much possible that the stipp's heard the bat on door sound's but the Burger's didn't.
None of us can say for sure.

 

[LemonMousse]

Thank you. So it defies logic to say that the Burgers could not have heard the bat hitting the door because it's too quiet but they could hear the screaming/wailing/shouts. Either they could hear both or neither.

133db is about 32 times louder than that 113.

So, yes it not only defies logic but it defies physics too.

 

[MeeBee]

How can you know how loud the sound of the bat on the door was?, it is very much possible that the stipp's heard the bat on door sound's but the Burger's didn't.
None of us can say for sure.

Exactly. I don't. And neither does anyone here.

And my point is if the Burgers could hear the screaming, then it's highly unlikely they could hear a bat on the door.

 

[MeeBee]

133db is about 32 times louder than that 113.

So, yes it not only defies logic but it defies physics too.

So you don't think the Burgers would be able to hear Reeva screaming?

 

[kittychi]

I am judging on the totality of his first sentence. It's grammatical nonsense. I know when a sentence either makes sense or it doesn't. If an English teacher asked me what could I construe from the sentence below, my only correct answer could be that the speaker was indecisive as to whether the person was male or female.

He remembers it's meant to be a woman at the start of his sentence, but trips up at the end...

"She sounded fearful. Of someone who was in fear of his or her life,"

Why would you ever put his or her on the end of that sentence above, if you know 100% you're talking about a woman?

This is where he *advertiser censored* up, as he should be saying "She sounded fearful. Of someone who was in fear of her life,"

I believe he is saying anyone who is in fear of "his or her" life would sound this fearful.

IOW: I think his second sentence is clarifying his first sentence in a more generic explanation of what fear sounds like in a scream...whether it be a female or a male.

IMO