Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[Interested Bystander]

I thought the judge decided the outcome of the trial with assistance of her assessors BUT it seems the assessors could overrule her decision ........

"On the Legal Brief website, Professor Annette van der Merwe, a criminal procedure law expert at the University of Pretoria, said the two assessors could overrule the judge when it comes to a verdict on the facts in a majority finding. This means that if the two assessors were to rule in favour of murder, or the judge and one assessor were to rule so, then that verdict would be the accepted one. The same would apply if two of them were to rule in favour of an acquittal."

http://www.legalweek.com/legal-week...der-trial-the-little-reported-legal-questions

 

[steveml]

This it petty and may be rumor but it is said that he has in fact found a replacement candidate to be the love of his life, a 19 yo paramedic student he met on vacation in Mozambique. They say she attends the trial to lend moral support.

But more directly, OP was dating Reeva for just three months; if he had the characteristic to quickly fall for a girl and stay with her, as many men do and others do not, he most likely would have married his high school sweetheart or
Samantha. JMO

You'd think women would steer clear, at least until he'd proved his (alleged) innocence. It reminds me a bit of those situations whereby women form new relationships with murderers in prison. What on earth will she think if he takes the stand and then just blurts out...I killed her, I was in a rage and etc etc.....

anic:

 

[foxbluff]

You'd think women would steer clear, at least until he'd proved his (alleged) innocence. It reminds me a bit of those situations whereby women form new relationships with murderers in prison. What on earth will she think if he takes the stand and then just blurts out...I killed her, I was in a rage and etc etc.....

anic:

BBM - Yes they sure do... w/serial killers of women no less.

They actually have a psychological term for such women now. I can't remember the term at the moment...

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I am still pondering over his written statement about the noise of someone being in the toilet We know she had a virtually empty bladder so must have been to the toilet since going to bed at allegedly 10pm . Assuming it had happened how he describes Reeva had redressed and flushed ,but not exited the toilet . so if we are to believe his version to be correct he must have shot through the door whilst the cistern was refilling which makes his version seem all the more implausible and irresponsible . A natural reaction to a flushing toilet has got to be that someone has been using the toilet ?
Remember he was not woken by anything suspicious as he had got up deliberately to bring the fans in and close the doors ,so would have been a little more alert by that time than if he had just woken . That been the case how come he wasn't alert enough to figure it could be Reeva using the toilet . She must have responded to him when he shouted out for her to call the police ?
The sound of a flushing toilet is not something that should sound like movement of an intruder.

It does not ring true does it. It is much more likely that Reeva ran in there and was trying to get away from an angry Oscar.

I just saw this and wondered if you could tell me what you meant: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #10 - 14.03.19-21, Day 13


"Another thing that I can't understand is the jeans outside the bathroom window .
I have my own theory for this and am surprised more has not been made of it ."

 

[steveml]

I thought the judge decided the outcome of the trial with assistance of her assessors BUT it seems the assessors could overrule her decision ........

"On the Legal Brief website, Professor Annette van der Merwe, a criminal procedure law expert at the University of Pretoria, said the two assessors could overrule the judge when it comes to a verdict on the facts in a majority finding. This means that if the two assessors were to rule in favour of murder, or the judge and one assessor were to rule so, then that verdict would be the accepted one. The same would apply if two of them were to rule in favour of an acquittal."

Hmm, that is strange. I've never heard of that before. I was under the impression that the assessors played no part in the verdict, but were merely there to offer advice and help on legal issues etc. that may arise during the case. I'll see if I can find any further clarification.

 

[james83]

BBM - Yes they sure do... w/serial killers of women no less.

They actually have a psychological term for such women now. I can't remember the term at the moment...

Crazy desperate bit*hes.

 

[Viper]

You'd think women would steer clear, at least until he'd proved his (alleged) innocence. It reminds me a bit of those situations whereby women form new relationships with murderers in prison. What on earth will she think if he takes the stand and then just blurts out...I killed her, I was in a rage and etc etc.....

anic:

ROFL!!! :floorlaugh: If that happens while I am watching live I may be so freaked out that I will grab my 9mm and fire off 3-4 shots to the bathroom door!!!!!

 

[james83]

I have to be honest and say that does really bother me about him that he dates such young girls. Like John Mayer does. Yuck.

To me it screams immaturity, i'm 28 and the thought of dating an 18 year old has no appeal to me what so ever, the difference in maturity would drive me nut's.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I think his own admissions are enough for a conviction of culpable homicide. If he does not testify, then the case for culpable homicide is even stronger.

If he testifies, then I think there is a chance that he could be acquitted if he can persuade the judge that he really did believe that an intruder was in the bathroom and he feared an immediate physical attack. Even if she accepts his version of mistakenly believing there was a burglar, there is still the question of whether his reaction was reasonable, given his mistaken belief. On that I have no idea what the judge will find - I think a lot will depend on how credible his testimony and his description of the circumstances that led to his fears and his use of lethal force.

I've been reading up a little on SA self defense and justification, and here's an article that explains it a little bit:

Killer rugby star Rudi ‘Vleis’ Visagie’s case may aid Oscar Pistorius in defence


I have also read some caselaw, and there are varying opinions about when homicide is justified by self- defense (or "putative self defense"). As I suspected, it is not black and white, but it is a subjective weighing of the circumstances. So it will come down to the discretion of the judge.

I've also found that in SA, cases get reversed pretty regularly - it is not like the appellate system we have in the US.

After reading the above link I can now see why we may have had such an emotional display in court from OP and why the wording of OP 's carefully prepared statement makes the point they were very much in love . ( which I personally doubt )


Unfortunately there is no real test to judge the emotional displays in court as there are many factors that could be causing them real grief, fear of prison or just plain old acting .
Presuming the type of bullets used and the number of shots will have some bearing on this case.

 

[MissJ]

Well, the grown man who claims to scream in falsetto worked for another man accused of murder, it might work for OP.

 

[Viper]

To me it screams immaturity, i'm 28 and the thought of dating an 18 year old has no appeal to me what so ever, the difference in maturity would drive me nut's.

Indeed! Good point: immaturity. Thank you for that.

 

[Interested Bystander]

11. How is Pistorius trying to prove his innocence?
The Paralympian is trying to prove that the killing was due to negligence. He claims he had no intention of killing Steenkamp as he suspected an intruder had entered his home. According to the Criminal Law Act, South African courts have traditionally applied the following test to determine whether the accused had been negligent:
• Would a reasonable person, in the same circumstances as the accused, have foreseen the reasonable possibility of the occurrence of the consequence, or the existence of the circumstance in question, including its unlawfulness?
• If so, would a reasonable person have taken steps to guard against that possibility?
• If so, did the accused fail to take the steps which he should reasonably have taken to guard against it?

Read more: http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3733-faqs-on-the-oscar-pistorius-trial#ixzz2wdB2EFiA

 

[james83]

This is a fantastic article imo

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...case-The-Blonde-is-the-victim-here-Blade.html

Should add it's from last year in case of confusion.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

It does not ring true does it. It is much more likely that Reeva ran in there and was trying to get away from an angry Oscar.

I just saw this and wondered if you could tell me what you meant: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #10 - 14.03.19-21, Day 13


"Another thing that I can't understand is the jeans outside the bathroom window .
I have my own theory for this and am surprised more has not been made of it ."

I just feel that there has not been any real discussion about them but there must be some reason for them to be there . Ie either Reeva threw them out to attract attention or to collect on her way to the car without alerting OP or OP himself threw them out . Just seems one coincidence too many to believe that they had been put there to dry and blown off . If they had been put there to dry the likelihood would be that the bathroom window was indeed open all along .
That coupled with the flushing noise that he never heard really stand out as being important in disproving OP's statement
I am very much leaning towards the fact that she was indeed taking refuge in the toilet but I am worried that the prosecution have not proved that beyond reasonable doubt ,do hope i am wrong here and that the 4 shots will be enough to secure murder at least .Will have to see what happens on Monday

 

[foxbluff]

Crazy desperate bit*hes.

:floorlaugh: I won't argue that!

Some of them even marry such jailbirds. I read one book for sure (and I believe two bks) where the bride was a psychologist!

Well, I guess, at least, they can be sure the guy isn't "stepping out w/other women" behind their backs.

 

[TorisMom003]

Quick question for anyone that believes that OP actually thought that an intruder had used a ladder to climb into an upstairs bathroom window...............why on earth would an intruder go through the trouble of dealing with not only two dogs but also a ladder into a second floor bathroom window that would possibly be inside of a bedroom at night when the house occupants could be asleep in that bedroom when there is a broken window on the ground floor that provides easier access?

There are to many red flags that have not yet been answered. OP is going to have to testify to explain (or try to) those red flags away. Otherwise he can kiss his freedom goodbye.

MOO

 

[TorisMom003]

:floorlaugh: I won't argue that!

Some of them even marry such jailbirds. I read one book for sure (and I believe two bks) where the bride was a psychologist!

Well, I guess, at least, they can be sure the guy isn't "stepping out w/other women" behind their backs.

No, they just have to worry about them stepping out with another guy.

During the Casey Anthony trial there was a mitigation specialist that had married a murderer that was in prison. I believe she even left her husband and children for this male.

 

[steveml]

To me it screams immaturity, i'm 28 and the thought of dating an 18 year old has no appeal to me what so ever, the difference in maturity would drive me nut's.

Indeed! Good point: immaturity. Thank you for that.

These things combined with the gun previous incidents, smashing up of the speedboat and driving at crazy speeds are things that he should have got out of his system a long time ago. He seems to have a mature sensible sports personality life, and a reckless, nothing-can-touch-me social life. Something very Jekyll and Hyde going on there. I guess Nel needs to be careful not to bring out too much of the crazy side though, as OP's defense could try for a different plea.

:noooo:

 

[soozieqtips]

Hmm, that is strange. I've never heard of that before. I was under the impression that the assessors played no part in the verdict, but were merely there to offer advice and help on legal issues etc. that may arise during the case. I'll see if I can find any further clarification.

It's true. They can overrule the judge. I was surprised too.

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3733-faqs-on-the-oscar-pistorius-trial

From the same piece:

According to the Criminal Law Act, South African courts have traditionally applied the following test to determine whether the accused had been negligent:

1. Would a reasonable person, in the same circumstances as the accused, have foreseen the reasonable possibility of the occurrence of the consequence, or the existence of the circumstance in question, including its unlawfulness?

2. If so, would a reasonable person have taken steps to guard against that possibility?

3. If so, did the accused fail to take the steps which he should reasonably have taken to guard against it?

 

[soozieqtips]

11. How is Pistorius trying to prove his innocence?
The Paralympian is trying to prove that the killing was due to negligence. He claims he had no intention of killing Steenkamp as he suspected an intruder had entered his home. According to the Criminal Law Act, South African courts have traditionally applied the following test to determine whether the accused had been negligent:
• Would a reasonable person, in the same circumstances as the accused, have foreseen the reasonable possibility of the occurrence of the consequence, or the existence of the circumstance in question, including its unlawfulness?
• If so, would a reasonable person have taken steps to guard against that possibility?
• If so, did the accused fail to take the steps which he should reasonably have taken to guard against it?

Read more: http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3733-faqs-on-the-oscar-pistorius-trial#ixzz2wdB2EFiA

Oops. I seem to be three steps behind you again. I just posted something similar. Note to self - refresh page once in a while!