Trial Discussion Thread #12 - 14.03.24, Day 14

[G.bng]

I think the point he was making is merely there is no proof YET he got violent or physical with her. Also, not all men who have a controlling or jealous nature move on to murder.

I am of course aware that not all abusers move on to murder and in this case I don't think, if it happened somewhere close to the way I conjecture, it would have been "an accident" of sorts as I don't think OP probably intended to actually kill, probably just open the door, albeit technically it would I think still be qualified as a murder for court purposes and I would think that right because you just can't go around shooting at doors you know someone is behind. I was merely thinking that Trooper was trying to prove with "90% loving" that it wasn't indicative.

 

[kittychi]

I have some sympathy for OP at this moment.

From reading the verbiage of the texts, he was trying. He wanted to work it out, but had no idea what to do. He was at an advanced stage in his professional life, but emotionally he was at pre-school stage. He had no awareness that temper tantrums, jealousy and obsessive controlling was totally inappropriate behavior for a responsible adult male in a mature relationship.

I have no doubt that he was completely frustrated with being challenged every time he did or said something demeaning to Reeva. Perhaps ex-girlfriends were too scared to verbalize what upset them, but Reeva did. She was honest about what was going on with her within the relationship.

If he'd had any insight into himself, it may have helped him. Instead, his rage caused him to destroy what he couldn't control.

So extremely sad.



.

 

[Patagonia]

Some screen shots of their texts:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-recap-3276636

 

[jassy writer]

Transcripts of the messages coming through on this link:

http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_trial_4

 

[Trooper]

The phone wasn't secret. It was out of service and hadn't been used in months. There's probably not going to be anything particularly interesting or relevant.

I don't think the evidence tabled was understood if that is the conclusion drawn. he got 3. ( THREE) bills..

 

[Viper]

The phone wasn't secret. It was out of service and hadn't been used in months. There's probably not going to be anything particularly interesting or relevant.

We were referring to the iPhone that Oscar was using that night. It somehow managed to sprout legs and it walked past the police at the crime scene and then walked over to Roux's office, no one that Oscar knows took it secretly from the crime scene. :smile:

 

[BritsKate]

I have some sympathy for OP at this moment.

From reading the verbiage of the texts, he was trying. He wanted to work it out, but had no idea what to do. He was at an advanced stage in his professional life, but emotionally he was at pre-school stage. He had no awareness that temper tantrums, jealousy and obsessive controlling was totally inappropriate behavior for a responsible adult male in a mature relationship.

I have no doubt that he was completely frustrated with being challenged every time he did or said something demeaning to Reeva. Perhaps ex-girlfriends were too scared to verbalize what upset them, but Reeva did. She was honest about what was going on with her within the relationship.

If he'd had any insight into himself, it may have helped him. Instead, his rage caused him to destroy what he couldn't control.

So extremely sad.



.

If he is in fact abusive (and personally I believe he is) it's more likely he wanted her to believe he was trying. One irony of abusers is they're always the victim.

I'd argue he did have awareness - the very moment she expressed fear. Oscar Pistorius could have had access to world class counseling should he have chosen to avail himself to it.

And instead of feeling frustrated by (reasonable) challenges about demeaning her - why not just stop demeaning her altogether?

Sorry - I just cannot see him as a victim in any capacity. Not even a victim of his choices.

 

[Trooper]

We were referring to the iPhone that Oscar was using that night. It somehow managed to sprout legs and it walked past the police at the crime scene and then walked over to Roux's office, no one that Oscar knows took it secretly from the crime scene. :smile:

now who could have done such a thing???


my money is on Clarice Standar..

 

[Insp.Dots]

Pretty sure Beach asked at the start of this thread that people needed to stop getting personal and allow people to write their own opinions with out criticism?

 

[Trooper]

While Dr Stipp was frantically trying to find a sign of life in Reevas body, our boy Oscar nipped upstairs..

CLarice zipped upstairs even before Dr Stipp got there, ostensibly to find bigger towels to stop all this bleeding over Oscars nice hallway..


plenty of time to grab a cellphone

 

[Viper]

I am of course aware that not all abusers move on to murder and in this case I don't think, if it happened somewhere close to the way I conjecture, it would have been "an accident" of sorts as I don't think OP probably intended to actually kill, probably just open the door, albeit technically it would I think still be qualified as a murder for court purposes and I would think that right because you just can't go around shooting at doors you know someone is behind. I was merely thinking that Trooper was trying to prove with "90% loving" that it wasn't indicative.

I did not know that was your belief until you posted that. My reply would simply be to consider that OP was proficient at shooting his gun, he practiced frequently and bragged about his accuracy at hitting the center of a target that was very far down-range at the shooting facility! In this case he was so close to the door when he was firing all four of the bullets, and yet not one of them hit the door mechanism. He was 100% accurate with three of the shots in hitting Reeva, which would lead me to believe that she was the target, not the door lock.

 

[DebinGA]

Transcripts of the messages coming through on this link:

http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_trial_4

RS to OP 1-27: "From the outside I think it looks like we are a struggle and maybe that’s what we are. I just want to love and be loved. Be happy and make someone SO happy. Maybe we can’t do that for each other. Cos right now I know u aren’t happy and I am certainly very unhappy and sad."

 

[kittychi]

We were referring to the iPhone that Oscar was using that night. It somehow managed to sprout legs and it walked past the police at the crime scene and then walked over to Roux's office, no one that Oscar knows took it secretly from the crime scene. :smile:

It had to be the one he used to call Stander and Netcare, because the phones at the scene had not seen phone calls that evening.

 

[sorrell skye]

I disagree that it's not a common thing.

And I hope that wasn't to imply that my husband is abusive (because don't) or that it's not normal for men to get over the top angry every once in a while. The anger is never directed at me, fwiw. It's just a way to let them know their behavior was uncharacteristic and you don't like seeing them that way. It doesn't imply actual fear. It means it was scary to see them not acting like themselves.

You don't need to justify your husband's over the top, angry behavior, or your scared reactions to his over the top, angry behavior to me, or anyone else. You only need to justify it to yourself. As I said in a previous post - your relationship with your husband is your business. I'm happy for you that your husband has never physically harmed you.

I maintain that it's not a common thing for women to warn men that their over the top, angry behavior is scary, at least not with the women & men I know.

 

[TorisMom003]

Jan 27th

RS: Im not 100per cent sure why Im typing...today my best friends engagement...you have picked on me incessantly....it's nasty....not flirting with anyone today...made me feel sick that you made a fuss and made us leave early...double standards. Every five secs I hear how you dated another chick, but if I mention one ex.....I'm so upset...scared of you sometimes, the way you snap at me...I'm not some other *****...I'm the girl who fell in love with you, but also girl who gets sidestepped...I get snapped at, stop chewing gum, do this, do that...you f... d up a special day for me....I just want to love and be loved....right now I know you aren't happy. I'm very unhappy and sad.

OP: Pls let me know when I can call you.

The response from OP to RS tells me a lot. She is telling him how he makes her feel and his response is that he wants to talk to her in person (on phone) instead of texts. The best way for an abuser to keep his claws in his victim is to talk in person to his victim. Texts are more able to be ignored, the words don't sting as much. It also is a very good way to not have a record as to what OP says to RS. This shows a controlling person that has treated the woman "he loves" in a very disrespectable manner.

MOO

 

[MeeBee]

You don't need to justify your husband's over the top, angry behavior, or your scared reactions to his over the top, angry behavior to me, or anyone else. You only need to justify it to yourself. As I said in a previous post - your relationship with your husband is your business. I'm happy for you that your husband has never physically harmed you.

I maintain that it's not a common thing for women to warn men that their over the top, angry behavior is scary, at least not with the women & men I know.

This has only happened once, I specifically remember what it was about and for him it was over the time but for a normal man it was pretty tame. He's the nicest man you'll ever meet. I'm not trying to justify it to myself. I don't need to. There's literally nothing to justify! But now I feel all uneasy because now I'm afraid it's In your head that I have an abusive husband or that he's an angry person when NOTHING could be farther from the truth. Truthfully.

ALL I was trying to say is we don't know exactly what Reeva meant when she said "you scare me." It can have a number of meanings. And that I understand what she might have meant due to my own experiences. That's it.

 

[Really?]

I am now watching the second half of trial from today. I went back to bed during their lunch.

Question:......I thought OW had ONE more question then he would be done.....

Now it seems he is intent to grill Mrs Stipp on more than ONE point......AARRRRGGGGGGGGG

:banghead:

OOOOOppppps....my bad...lol....let me see if I should be watching part 3


keep calm and carry on......

 

[04009margaret]

I am of course aware that not all abusers move on to murder and in this case I don't think, if it happened somewhere close to the way I conjecture, it would have been "an accident" of sorts as I don't think OP probably intended to actually kill, probably just open the door, albeit technically it would I think still be qualified as a murder for court purposes and I would think that right because you just can't go around shooting at doors you know someone is behind. I was merely thinking that Trooper was trying to prove with "90% loving" that it wasn't indicative.

BBM- I spent 5 years volunteering at a woman's shelter & most of my clients would say that those messages reflect their story, most would say OMG that sounds like me. I had a client who's bf knocked her down in his car, then repeatedly ran over her legs. This client was only 23 years old & her legs were so badly crushed they were both amputated above the knees. To say that OP may have been trying to open the door by shooting at it is as bad as her bf claiming he was just trying to scare her. My clients crime like RS was that her bf believed she was flirting with another guy.

 

[TorisMom003]

long message again. he speaks very fast..

reeva to Oscar. 7th feb 22.09..= 24.09


Ilike to believe I made you proud at these kind of functions, I present myself well. while you are off chatting with fans. and whilst you were chatting I was saying good bye to peoole, I was being cordial while you were busy.

I thought I was helping by getting to the exit quickly, I can go fast on high heels..

I might joke around and be tomboyish at times, I am a person too. I realize you get harassed , I am rying my best to make you happy. . but I don't think you ever are. you are the one person I deserve protection from. .

BBM

This part is VERY telling. It can be taken one of two ways, and both ways are damning towards OP. RS could be saying that she deserves protection from the way OP treats her OR she could be saying that since she and OP "love one another" and are in a committed relationship that he should be protecting her from things that harm her instead of harming her himself. Either way it shows that OP was more concerned with his own wants and needs instead of concerning himself with things that bother, harm and/or hurt Reeva.

MOO

 

[G.bng]

I think if the state's version is true a US jury would be apt to convict him of second degree murder, which is heat of passion.

I know what you are saying but I am not sure it applies in this case because wouldn't a crime of passion have to be in the act of finding your partner with another ? In the UK infidelity can be used to show "provocation" as a mitigating circumstance to reduce murder to manslaughter, I think the equivalent of the US 1, 2 and 3 degrees.

But from my readings SA neither uses 1, 2 and 3 degree murder nor manslaughter, just murder and culpable homicide, but I read somewhere they do have provocation as a mitigating circumstance but not sure if that is only if you are attacked first or can be as in a case of infidelity etc.