Trial Discussion Thread #16

[steveml]

Haha.

I've always presumed BBM meant sent by BlackBerry Messenger.

Here's me thinking these phones were more popular than they were.

I know nuffink!

:facepalm:

 

[jay-jay]

Originally Posted by jay-jay View Post
But what would the other reason be, though .. why else would he be doing it?

To make sure her last words were not, "Oscar shot me...."

Yes, I get that .. but I don't understand why he would stick his fingers in her mouth to do it? I don't know much about finishing someone off (never done it myself ..!) but wouldn't he just have put his hand over her nose and mouth to suffocate her or sommat, if he wanted to make sure she never spoke again? (and she was virtually dead by then anyway).

 

[MeeBee]

Haha.

I've always presumed BBM meant sent by BlackBerry Messenger.

Here's me thinking these phones were more popular than they were.

I know nuffink!

:facepalm:

You're definitely not the first one who's thought that.

 

[steveml]

Something extraordinary has just happened to me. This is entirely factual and I swear this is true.

I've just been outside to move the car onto the drive and I got back out of the car to come back inside.

Someone started hammering down the road, sounded like they could be working on a car. Anyhow, I heard the hammering, then what sounded like a steel spanner or similar (metal thing drop) on the floor. I then heard a further two hammer noises.

The problem is, I can't remember exactly how many noises I heard before the spanner (or metal thing) dropped.

It was a few, but I'm not certain.

Anyhow, I know it's gonna sound really unlikely so I wasn't going to say anything - but what the hell, I'm not shy.

I'd make a terrible witness as that was only five minutes ago.

:dunno:

 

[anagrammy]

During the battle all over the house... up and down the stairs, bashing bedroom door etc...

Was OP on his stumps or wearing his prostheses?

I think he was on his prostheses and that's how the damage was done that we see, the scrapes/dents. He can claim the blood was from carrying her downstairs, but what about their battered appearance?

I don't think OP would have been as aggressive on his stumps. He says he "feels vulnerable" in them, hence would have worn his prosthetics in the presence of his girlfriend, except when in bed.

It could have been that he cold-bloodedly decided to kill Reeva because she couldn't be allowed to report his violence, and removed his legs and placed her sandals by the bed before beating on the door with the cricket bat.

We've seen him commit an irrational impulsive act and then in the next nano-second be handling the PR aspect of it "Take the blame, won't you?" He is capable of switching from rage to calculating in a heartbeat. He went from wailing to God not to let Reeva die to taking care of business upstairs stat.

 

[MeeBee]

I think he was on his prostheses and that's how the damage was done that we see, the scrapes/dents. He can claim the blood was from carrying her downstairs, but what about their battered appearance?

I don't think OP would have been as aggressive on his stumps. He says he "feels vulnerable" in them, hence would have worn his prosthetics in the presence of his girlfriend, except when in bed.

It could have been that he cold-bloodedly decided to kill Reeva because she couldn't be allowed to report his violence, and removed his legs and placed her sandals by the bed before beating on the door with the cricket bat.

We've seen him commit an irrational impulsive act and then in the next nano-second be handling the PR aspect of it "Take the blame, won't you?" He is capable of switching from rage to calculating in a heartbeat. He went from wailing to God not to let Reeva die to taking care of business upstairs stat.

There's pictures and video pre-murder that show similar damage to his prosthesis. MO is that the marks are from regular wear and tear.

 

[G.bng]

Try this scenario and see if it fits:

Killer's story is true... to a point.

He thinks intruder is in bathroom and shoots through door... one shot, hitting Reeva in the hip.

Reeva screams and he realizes he screwed up. She tells him he's crazy, and she's going to call police, etc. Maybe they fought earlier.

Killer breaks in door to try to save her. She keeps berating him while screaming and writhing in agony, threatening to call police, ruin him, etc.

Killer panics, snaps, whatever, and shoots her dead.

He calls Stander, then goes back and rips remaining panels from door, unlocks the door, and carries her downstairs.

Yes, he thought she was an intruder, and yes he intentionally killed her.

Possible based on evidence?

According to what Saayman said about the hip injury that was a mortal wound in itself and blew the whole of her right pelvis away taking the artery with it, I really couldn't buy into Reeva saying anything to OP about calling police, ruining him, etc. less still continuing to berate him. Maybe a bit too B movie for me... but I do go with the "screaming and writhing in agony" bit though! ;-)

 

[Viper]

I've asked before but never got a response. If OP's version is correct and the gunshots that hit Reeva three times came first beginning at 3 am, would Reeva still be alive when he finally carried her downstairs at 3:24 (or so) am? Can a person survive 24 or so minutes with a gunshot to the leg like Reeva had? Can a person survive, let's say 23 or so minutes with a gunshot to the head like Reeva had? If not, then how is it explained that there was arterial spatter from when OP carried Reeva downstairs? And if it is not possible, then doesn't that point to the ear witnesses being correct and the bat actually did come first with the gunshots second around 3:17 am?

^^^^THIS^^^^

Thank you Sir/Madam!

 

[vansleuths]

OP certainly took full charge of the situation, all on his todd until Dr Stipp arrived and confirmed she was gone, then he nipped upstairs.

Whose testimony again was it that OP went upstairs for a few minutes and was there any other details about his trip? Did he bring towels down or something?

 

[Insp.Dots]

BIB. We covered this today I believe. The heart does not have a role in the arterial spray in this case. That was caused by OP holding her and moving at the same time as it puts pressure on parts of her body, moving blood. The autopsy, she died after 2-3 breaths, he didn't say she died after 2-3 breaths but her heart kept beating for 6 minutes, that would be nonsensical. She died and her heart stopped beating after 2-3 breaths.

There is a reason that the DT wants her to be "alive" until OP got to the bottom of the stairs.

Pretty sure the PT blood splatter expert said there was arterial spurts down onto sofa and down staircase.

 

[G.bng]

Yes, but I don't think the hip and arm wounds would be fatal immediately and survivable with fast medical attention, the head shot was quickly fatal.

From expert's evidence the hip injury was mortal in itself or would have needed immediate medical attention... not just fast and from descriptions it seemed it blew away the whole pelvic area around her hip compromising the whole of her lower torso.

 

[MeeBee]

From expert's evidence the hip injury was mortal in itself or would have needed immediate medical attention... not just fast and from descriptions it seemed it blew away the whole pelvic area around her hip compromising the whole of her lower torso.

Dear god...:'(

 

[Cherwell]

Americans use the word bathroom as a catch all for toilet rooms/powder rooms/washrooms, etc. That's why I put it there, to account for wherever he was from so he could understand. We don't say toilet cubicle.

I'm aware of that. In this particular case it's important to make the distinction though, otherwise there is scope for plenty of confusion.

 

[jay-jay]

My thought on your theory was purposely missing the 2nd shot, aiming into the corner tiles saying if she doesn't stop and let him help her, he will shoot again. He shoots the 2nd warning shot to avoid her but showing he's serious.

Screaming etc continues. 3rd shot. 4th shot :-(

Although in saying all that, the medic stated that the 1st hip shot alone would likely have proved fatal x

My view is that he knew exactly where she was, i.e. directly behind the door, because she was standing right behind it banging on it to get out from where he had locked her in there. He would know that the first shot got her .. but then the rest would just have been a guess and he kept firing until she was silenced (which just happened to be 4 bullets in all, but he still had another couple left in the chamber and no doubt would've used more if he had needed to).

 

[Danta]

I've asked before but never got a response. If OP's version is correct and the gunshots that hit Reeva three times came first beginning at 3 am, would Reeva still be alive when he finally carried her downstairs at 3:24 (or so) am? Can a person survive 24 or so minutes with a gunshot to the leg like Reeva had? Can a person survive, let's say 23 or so minutes with a gunshot to the head like Reeva had? If not, then how is it explained that there was arterial spatter from when OP carried Reeva downstairs? And if it is not possible, then doesn't that point to the ear witnesses being correct and the bat actually did come first with the gunshots second around 3:17 am?

During testimony the blood spatter expert stated that there were arterial spurts (a very definitive pattern, not to be mistaken for blood drops) in the downstairs area.

It was also reported that any of the three wounds could have been fatal, that includes the wound to the arm, which also has arteries.

http://www.patient.co.uk/diagram/arteries-of-the-arm-diagram

Arterial spray needs the "heart pumping". This still does not answer the timeline of still having her heart pumping as she was carried downstairs.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Something extraordinary has just happened to me. This is entirely factual and I swear this is true.

I've just been outside to move the car onto the drive and I got back out of the car to come back inside.

Someone started hammering down the road, sounded like they could be working on a car. Anyhow, I heard the hammering, then what sounded like a steel spanner or similar (metal thing drop) on the floor. I then heard a further two hammer noises.

The problem is, I can't remember exactly how many noises I heard before the spanner (or metal thing) dropped.

It was a few, but I'm not certain.

Anyhow, I know it's gonna sound really unlikely so I wasn't going to say anything - but what the hell, I'm not shy.

I'd make a terrible witness as that was only five minutes ago.

:dunno:

Yes but you would still make a good witness because you definitely heard something and I bet if they had dropped the spanner on their foot and started cursing you would be able to say whether it was a man or a woman
Also your post demonstrates the fact that we can nearly always recognise everyday sounds whether we can see them or not .
How can OP have claimed that he heard the window sliding open but didn't say he heard someone jump down ,didn't hear the door close or the key turned .
To me these are instinctive sounds ? Whether you are scared or not . I find that when I am scared my hearing is on high alert .

 

[patCee]

From expert's evidence the hip injury was mortal in itself or would have needed immediate medical attention... not just fast and from descriptions it seemed it blew away the whole pelvic area around her hip compromising the whole of her lower torso.

Phew! I knew it was bad, just not that bad. I thought the doctor said survival 50/50 on that and the arm injury. Thanks

 

[G.bng]

I am one who believes that he shoved his fingers in her mouth to silence her......so yeah, she may have still been breathing at that point downstairs.

People were coming in the door at that time and he could not risk any mouthing off ( in his mind) .....silent or not.

She was already dead according to Stipp and Saayman said she couldn't have breathed more than a few times...

 

[MeeBee]

I'm aware of that. In this particular case it's important to make the distinction though, otherwise there is scope for plenty of confusion.

I was talking in a general sense, not in this case. Besides, in the parts of Europe I've been to they have WC on the public bathroom door so I don't think it's not open to interpretation anyway. It just depends where you're from. Water closet can mean bathroom in some places.

 

[Viper]

Pretty sure the PT blood splatter expert said there was arterial spurts down onto sofa and down staircase.

Good question. Looking at the facts: Reeva had 5 massive gunshot wounds (3 direct gunshot wounds and 2 exit wounds), two arteries were severed, and the autopsy concluded that she died with perhaps 2-3 breaths after recieving the two to her head. The blood pools in the bathroom are tiny compared to what they should have been if she had survived for even a minute after the gunshot to her head; there should have been liters of blood indicating that she died of blood loss, but there wasn't, she died in a split second, her brain shut down and heart stopped in seconds. I tried desperately to explain compression and decompression of her body that OP did as he was carrying her downstairs, but it is hard for many to grasp that these compressions move blood through the vessels and can cause what looks like bleeding, but deceased people don't bleed.

Now, given 5 massive wounds that Reeva had, OP was doing something for those 17 minutes (defense version) but he was not doing anything to help Reeva because she was already dead.

So the expert gave his opinion in a vacuum, he did not have the autopsy report to reference, just his experience and what he observed. But what he observed was definitely not signs of life, Reeva died at 3:17, IIRC 5-6 minutes (prosecution teams version, and defense team's original version) before OP carried her body down the stairs.