Trial Discussion Thread #16

[Viper]

it is ridiculous to me that we are expected to take the oscar screaming like a woman stuff seriously, totally bonkers.
To believe it, it has to be true that he fired the gun, went back to the bedroom and realised reeva might be in the toilet and then spent around 10 minutes screaming in a male and female voice before finally hitting the door with the bat, i mean really?, i feel like my intelligence is being insulted here.
we then have to believe going by the witness statements that after 2nd "shots" there was complete silence, that once oscar gets the door open and finds reeva he then stops screaming, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

^^^^this too!^^^^

 

[james83]

Yes, it wouldn't make sense at all would it, all the gun/bat sequences would have to be different and would not agree with the majority of witness testimonies.

However...

If the screaming was Oscar's it makes absolutely perfect sense. It tells us Johan Stipp heard the shots, then the screaming, then the cricket bat, as per OP's statement.

No it doesn't at all, it tells us that Stipp in his own words didn't hear the cricket bat on door sounds, he heard both sets of sounds and then Oscar shout for help, at the point where Oscar shouts for help in his affidavit he is yet to use the bat.

 

[Val1]

Well what is most likely.
A) The theory that a woman made screams lasting for around 10 minutes that were described by witness's as a woman's scream with descriptions such as terrified and blood curdling because she was locked in a toilet with her enraged partner ouside

B) The theory that a man made screams lasting around 10 minutes that were described by witness's as a woman's scream with description's such as terrified and blood curdling whilst running back and forward from bathroom to bedroom because he believed he may have shot his girlfriend, in the middle of this he shouted help of his balcony which was recognised as being a mans voice by Dr Stipp.

Imagine a man's scream in your head, it's more of a roar isn't it?

After having spent a fair amount of time in hospital delivery rooms, I can verify a woman being able to scream for 10 minutes is nothing and that's for an albeit painful but joyous event, so if in fear for one's life and possibly already injured, I can certainly believe RS could have screamed for much longer if she'd been allowed to. A man on the other hand, it really is hard to believe. When my husband had his arm ripped off etc etc, the only time he ever made a sound even resembling a scream was when they tried to hang him upside down for one of the tests on his spine.

Well folks, it's after 4am, again... fftobed::bedtime:

 

[steveml]

What exactly is YOUR theory?

It's in a previous post, a couple of pages back.

It's very simple.

OP fires 4 shots into toilet, shortly afterwards realizes Reeva's in there, rushes to balcony, screams for help, rushes back to door, breaks door down with cricket bat, pulls Reeva into bathroom and phones Stander.

I've left out any dramatics like 'screams in anguish' or anything like that as all of this is subjective.

As I've previously mentioned, as soon as you accept that the voices after the shooting were OP's, you do not have to build any story to fit around the witness statements. It makes perfect sense.

Whether that is an unbelievable coincidence or not, is not for me to say. It's just where I am at the moment, based on what I've heard in the trial.

 

[james83]

It's in a previous post, a couple of pages back.

It's very simple.

OP fires 4 shots into toilet, shortly afterwards realizes Reeva's in there, rushes to balcony, screams for help, rushes back to door, breaks door down with cricket bat, pulls Reeva into bathroom and phones Stander.

I've left out any dramatics like 'screams in anguish' or anything like that as all of this is subjective.

As I've previously mentioned, as soon as you accept that the voices after the shooting were OP's, you do not have to build any story to fit around the witness statements. It makes perfect sense.

Whether that is an unbelievable coincidence or not, is not for me to say. It's just where I am at the moment, based on what I've heard in the trial.

But then there is the issue of time, how long would you honestly estimate it would take to do that in the desperate state someone would be in in that scenario?.

 

[BlueShoe]

This is what I believe the witnesses heard...

Johan Stipp - Gunshots - Man screaming out and crying -Cricket bat.

Annette Stipp - Gunshots - Man screaming out and crying - Cricket bat.

Estelle Van De Merwe - Gunshots - Man screaming out and crying.

Michelle Burger - Man screaming out and crying - Cricket bat.

Charl Johnson - Man screaming out and crying - Cricket bat.

In this scenario, OP is screaming (did anyone hear his crying?) horrifyingly before he realizes what he has done. Yes, he realizes it is probably Reeva in there, but he can not at this point realize he has killed her. It's likely she is in bad shape, but maybe she was in the other corner and only hit by fragments, and has survivable injuries. Why would he scream so uncontrollably before he knows her condidion, and then once he learns she is dead, run out and yell (not scream) for help in a less intense manner?

 

[steveml]

No it doesn't at all, it tells us that Stipp in his own words didn't hear the cricket bat on door sounds, he heard both sets of sounds and then Oscar shout for help, at the point where Oscar shouts for help in his affidavit he is yet to use the bat.

Nope, I think you're missing my point.

Johan Stipp heard 3 bangs (we're going with gun first theory here, so it's shots), now following on from that the next voice he hears is OP's (it can't be Reeva's as she's dead). Now follow on with his testimony to conclusion.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

 

[Cherwell]

I could accept that a man who realised he had just accidentally shot his girlfriend dead would make sounds following the realisation. But I would expect those sounds to be howling, sobbing or crying. Not screaming. Witnesses have described the screaming as terrified, coming from someone in fear for her life. That Pistorius would make that kind of sound - no, it doesn't ring true to me.

 

[james83]

In this scenario, OP is screaming (did anyone hear his crying?) horrifyingly before he realizes what he has done. Yes, he realizes it is probably Reeva in there, but he can not at this point realize he has killed her. It's likely she is in bad shape, but maybe she was in the other corner and only hit by fragments, and has survivable injuries. Why would he scream so uncontrollably before he knows her condidion, and then once he learns she is dead, run out and yell (not scream) for help in a less intense manner?

Exactly, put yourself in his position and you realise the only thing Oscar would be doing in this scenario is shouting "Reeva" over and over and over again at the top of his lungs.
The judge is not going to buy this screaming nonsense.

 

[Gryffindor]

Okay, re the 2 sets of bangs - 2 then 4

1st set - rifle shot through downstairs window & rifle shot through bedroom door (although was allegedly fitted with a silencer?)

Alternative 1st set - cricket bat twice on bath metal plate or once on plate and once on tiles??

2nd set - 4 shots through toilet door.

I'm not even convinced the cricket bat contributes to any sounds audible to neighbours.

PS. 1st set of sounds is driving me nuts!! Haha

Wood splinters in toilet bowl had to be from prizing thin shards of wood from door above handle prior to Reeva dying/receiving the head shot otherwise they couldn't have ended up in the bowl.

 

[james83]

Nope, I think you're missing my point.

Johan Stipp heard 3 bangs (we're going with gun first theory here, so it's shots), now following on from that the next voice he hears is OP's (it can't be Reeva's as she's dead). Now follow on with his testimony to conclusion.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

No it still doesn't make sense, how are you overlooking the fact that Stipp heard both set's bangs then the shout for help that oscar made before he used the bat?.

 

[Viper]

It's in a previous post, a couple of pages back.

It's very simple.

OP fires 4 shots into toilet, shortly afterwards realizes Reeva's in there, rushes to balcony, screams for help, rushes back to door, breaks door down with cricket bat, pulls Reeva into bathroom and phones Stander.

I've left out any dramatics like 'screams in anguish' or anything like that as all of this is subjective.

As I've previously mentioned, as soon as you accept that the voices after the shooting were OP's, you do not have to build any story to fit around the witness statements. It makes perfect sense.

Whether that is an unbelievable coincidence or not, is not for me to say. It's just where I am at the moment, based on what I've heard in the trial.

BIB. By "dramatics" it seems that you have left out the evidence of time, lots of time. Respectfully your theory seems incomplete, it should at least include the "dramatics" of evidence such as time and witness testimony, IMO.

 

[james83]

And that is another problem with Oscars story, it seems it took at least 10 minutes between last gunshot and getting the door open, ask yourself the question, if it was your partner in there probably bleeding to death, how long would it take you to get that door down?.

 

[steveml]

I could accept that a man who realised he had just accidentally shot his girlfriend dead would make sounds following the realisation. But I would expect those sounds to be howling, sobbing or crying. Not screaming. Witnesses have described the screaming as terrified, coming from someone in fear for her life. That Pistorius would make that kind of sound - no, it doesn't ring true to me.

Fair point...however Anette Stipp is adamant that a man can scream.

She testified in court that she heard male and female voices screaming at the same time.

 

[jay-jay]

Here are pics of the night of Feb 7th 2013 where OP and Reeva attended the virgin active industry sports awards.......

now look back at her message from feb 8th.....

http://www.galloimages.co.za/event/2013-virgin-active-sport-industry-awards/154179

Wow .. somehow I have managed to miss/forget half of that message (I know bits of it, but not the full text for some unknown reason):

February 8, 2013

RS to OP: I like to believe that I made you proud when I attend these kind of functions with you. I present myself well and can converse with others while you are off busy chatting to fans and friends. I also knew people there tonight and whilst you were having one or two pics taken I was saying goodbye to the people in my industry and Fitz wanted a photo with me. I was just being cordial by saying goodbye whilst you were busy. I completely understood your desperation to leave and thought I would be helping you by getting to the exit before you because I can't rush on the heels I was wearing. I thought it would make a difference in us getting out without you getting harassed anymore. I didn't think you would criticize me for doing that especially not so loudly so that others could hear. I might joke around and be all Tom boyish at times but I regard myself as a lady and I didn't feel like one tonight after the way you treated me when we left. I'm a person too and I appreciate that you invited me out tonight and I realize that you get harassed but I am trying my best to make you happy and I feel as though you sometimes never are, no matter the effort I put in. I can't be attacked by outsiders for dating you and be attacked by you -- the one person I deserve protection from.

 

[BlueShoe]

It's in a previous post, a couple of pages back.

It's very simple.

OP fires 4 shots into toilet, shortly afterwards realizes Reeva's in there, rushes to balcony, screams for help, rushes back to door, breaks door down with cricket bat, pulls Reeva into bathroom and phones Stander.

I've left out any dramatics like 'screams in anguish' or anything like that as all of this is subjective.

As I've previously mentioned, as soon as you accept that the voices after the shooting were OP's, you do not have to build any story to fit around the witness statements. It makes perfect sense.

Whether that is an unbelievable coincidence or not, is not for me to say. It's just where I am at the moment, based on what I've heard in the trial.

I think I misunderstood your previous theory. I thought you were simply replacing the woman's screams with OP's screams. Now it appears that the woman's screams are being massaged into men's screams. Of course without the "dramatics" which were interpreted as fear by the witnesses and with the erasure of the many screams attested to and simple replacement by yells of "Help," this theory can work. It does not work, however, by simply replacing Reeva's screams with Oscar's. IMO

So if Reeva can be morphed into Oscar, then all is well for the Defense.

 

[Trooper]

Fair point...however Anette Stipp is adamant that a man can scream.

She testified in court that she heard male and female voices screaming at the same time.

She nor her husband confused one for the other, though..


the point which no one has missed is the peculiar claim that Oscar can and in fact did scream exactly like the woman the witnesses heard..


and that would be difficult for Oscar to replicate.. since, he, being 60 cms away from this Screaming Woman, never mentions it at all.

 

[Trooper]

so I'm asking.. how can Oscar replicate exactly a sound he's never heard??

 

[Trooper]

Its a real dilemma for Oscar..

if he CAN and DOES replicate that same sound. then. . by golly, he must have heard it too.

if he CANT and DOESNT replicate that same sound.. no one was mistaking him for her.

 

[Cherwell]

I could accept that a man who realised he had just accidentally shot his girlfriend dead would make sounds following the realisation. But I would expect those sounds to be howling, sobbing or crying. Not screaming. Witnesses have described the screaming as terrified, coming from someone in fear for her life. That Pistorius would make that kind of sound - no, it doesn't ring true to me.

Fair point...however Anette Stipp is adamant that a man can scream.

She testified in court that she heard male and female voices screaming at the same time.

You've missed my point.

I didn't say that a man can't scream. I said that I find it unlikely that a man would "scream" in a terrified fearful way after he realised he had accidentally shot his girlfriend dead.