Trial Discussion Thread #16

[TorisMom003]

An image from Lisa's blog showing numerous marks on the shower stall glass door:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/10.jpg

It appears to me to be bat strikes, 12 of them.

Edit: What sort of moron hits a glass door with a bat!? Nice to learn that they don't break easily though, I have a couple in my house. :smile:

After seeing the following photo, I'm not so sure that the marks on the shower door are from hitting the shower door. I believe that perhaps they were blood spots, presumably from arterial spurts.


link for photo
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ius-fatally-shot-girlfriend-article-1.1740454

ETA: I also went back and listened to the blood spatter expert. Unfortunately he never explained what SS is on the shower door.

 

[Cherwell]

Haha I'm not a bloke and I never put the lid down. Most people don't, not in Scotland anyway ;-) haha

You should! It's very bad feng shui to leave the lid up! It causes money to flow out of the house !

 

[sorrell skye]

Did the blood spatter expert explain what SS was when he gave his testimony? Does anyone remember? If not, no biggie, I can just go back and listen to his testimony again.

Since "SS" appears in Col van der Nest's blood spatter evidence photos, the arrows on the glass shower door in the bathroom photo must be indicating blood spatter. He used similar arrows to indicate blood spatter on the stairway walls.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

 

[shane13]

I think much of OP's time on the stand will be spent saying things like:

"I can't remember. I was in a state of panic"
"I don't know. I was overcome by terror"
"I can't recall. I was in fear for my life"
"I'm not sure. I believed the intruder was coming out to kill me"
"I don't know why I thought a locked door was about to kill me, but I knew I was in grave danger and had to protect myself... oops, and Reeva too. Ooh, did I mention we were deeply in love and I couldn't be happier... and that Reeva felt the same way?"

And the big one:
"I honestly thought at that time that "Everything was fine..."

 

[TorisMom003]

And the big one:
"I honestly thought at that time that "Everything was fine..."

The phone call in which he stated "Everything is fine" was AFTER calling Stander and Netcare. So how, pray tell, did OP think that everything was fine when he knew that he had shot Reeva three times, once in the head, and was "told to bring her to the hospital instead of waiting for an ambulance"?

 

[Viper]

After seeing the following photo, I'm not so sure that the marks on the shower door are from hitting the shower door. I believe that perhaps they were blood spots, presumably from arterial spurts.


link for photo
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ius-fatally-shot-girlfriend-article-1.1740454

ETA: I also went back and listened to the blood spatter expert. Unfortunately he never explained what SS is on the shower door.

Here is the photo that my post was questioning, it is not blood on the glass shower door:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/10.jpg

There are 12 marks.

 

[steveml]

BBM... including when Mrs. van der Mewre heard an argument from 1:56am-3am?

Thanks. I knew everybody wouldn't let me off the hook :wink:

Was there an argument or not? Was it OP and Reeva? These are important points.

Mrs Van Der Merwe basically said that she awoke an hour earlier to hear people talking in loud voices as if arguing. She could not hear what language they were speaking.

Mrs Van Der Merwe hasn't said it was OP and Reeva, and she's not said which house the sound appeared to be coming from.

There's really only a couple of things that can happen here :-

Defense can think that it doesn't carry enough weight as Van De Merwe is the only one who heard this, but is not the closest. Was it anyone else in the neighborhood?

Defense can have interviewed other nearer neighbours. It's possible one has claimed that it was them who were talking loudly/arguing.

Defense can have interviewed other nearer neighbours, who have said they heard nothing from the surrounding houses, indicating what Mrs Van Der Merwe heard was from the other side of the estate and nothing to do with the Pistorius property.

The above is really speculation, and I wouldn't want to guess too much before defense starts. If there are any errors in the above please go easy on me as I'm working from memory here. :smile:

 

[TorisMom003]

Here is the photo that my post was questioning, it is not blood on the glass shower door:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/10.jpg

There are 12 marks.

Viper please look at the photo that I also posted. In fact, I will post them next to one another so it is easier to examine them. There are no hit marks shown on the shower door in the photo I posted. Also, as Sorrell Skye posted, the tabs used on the shower door was also used by the blood expert everywhere that he found blood. This includes on the stairway walls and the floor downstairs.

The picture showing the toilet room door with the arrows in it was taken on March 8. The shower door picture was taken on April 15.

link for both pics
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ius-fatally-shot-girlfriend-article-1.1740454

 

[lisasalinger]

BBM

I have no idea why the defense/OP need and want Reeva to be alive that entire time. It does absolutely nothing to help their case. It is beyond the grasp of common sense to think that anyone could survive and still be alive some 20 plus minutes after receiving the types of injuries that Reeva did. The only thing that I can think of is that they must have the gunshots first as this goes to their "intruder" story. If we have the cricket bat first, then it proves that OP clearly knew that it was Reeva in the toilet room and then proves premeditation and/or the intentional killing of Reeva.

MOO

This is their problem, and this is why their theory does not ring true at all.

They want her dead at 3am so they can explain away all of the terrified female screaming that was heard after that for several minutes, as well as the intermingled male and female screaming. It all needs to go away.

But OP didn't call anybody until 3:19am. This fact cannot be disputed. That looks horrendous. 19 minutes after he accidently shot her is when he decides to reach out for help? He yells help from the balcony but doesn't ask for help when his community security guard is on the phone with him at 3:22am?

No, he would prefer that Stander and his lawyer daughter handle the situation, not security.

So now they need Reeva clinging to life so that it somewhat makes sense that OP doesn't carry her downstairs until closer to 3:24am. Now 24 minutes after he supposedly shot her.

But that doesn't make sense either because they are likely going to claim the head shot came first, which would render her incapacitated pretty much immediately. So why is she still alive almost 24 minutes after OP shot her?

And why did it take OP 15 minutes to break down the door?

The Defense has some serious hurdles here.

 

[nastasya]

I had also considered and posted about that
The damage to the shower screen looks like it has been hit repeatedly in anger .
And then we have the smashed bedroom door ,dented bath plate and broken downstairs window .
It is so sad we have not heard testimony from his live in cleaner and handyman as to the state of that house prior to the day of shooting .
They must have had some important information
We're they ever on the prosecution witness list ?

I will go out on a limb and predict the people that worked for the killer will recall nothing incriminating.

In fact, I will predict that people who worked for the killer may testify that they heard 4 gun shots, then killer calling out Reeva's name, then killer calling for help, then the clear sound of a cricket bat hitting wood.

 

[Gryffindor]

You should! It's very bad feng shui to leave the lid up! It causes money to flow out of the house !

Haha fortunately I'm not terribly into feng shui ;-)

 

[Cherwell]

It is so sad we have not heard testimony from his live in cleaner and handyman as to the state of that house prior to the day of shooting .
They must have had some important information
We're they ever on the prosecution witness list ?

I think they were, but we must assume that they would be of no help to the prosecution. :silenced:

 

[sorrell skye]

Col van der Nest took his blood spatter photos on Feb. 15. All the evidence markers seen in his crime scene photos relate to blood spatter evidence.

 

[lisasalinger]

Thanks. I knew everybody wouldn't let me off the hook :wink:

Was there an argument or not? Was it OP and Reeva? These are important points.

Mrs Van Der Merwe basically said that she awoke an hour earlier to hear people talking in loud voices as if arguing. She could not hear what language they were speaking.

Mrs Van Der Merwe hasn't said it was OP and Reeva, and she's not said which house the sound appeared to be coming from.

There's really only a couple of things that can happen here :-

Defense can think that it doesn't carry enough weight as Van De Merwe is the only one who heard this, but is not the closest. Was it anyone else in the neighborhood?

Defense can have interviewed other nearer neighbours. It's possible one has claimed that it was them who were talking loudly/arguing.

Defense can have interviewed other nearer neighbours, who have said they heard nothing from the surrounding houses, indicating what Mrs Van Der Merwe heard was from the other side the estate and nothing to do with the Pistorius property.

The above is really speculation, and I wouldn't want to guess too much before defense starts. If there are any errors in the above please go easy on me as I'm working from memory here. :smile:

Good morning, Steve :coffeecup:

It will definitely be interesting to see who the Defense calls to the stand, in particular more neighbors.

The van der Mewre account rings true to me because her husband identified OP crying after the last set of bangs. That tells me the sounds were coming from the same location.

 

[Cherwell]

I will go out on a limb and predict the people that worked for the killer will recall nothing incriminating.

In fact, I will predict that people who worked for the killer may testify that they heard 4 gun shots, then killer calling out Reeva's name, then killer calling for help, then the clear sound of a cricket bat hitting wood.

And no female screaming.

 

[soozieqtips]

And the big one:
"I honestly thought at that time that "Everything was fine..."

So obvious he was stalling so he could get things 'cleared up' with Stander first. He didn't want anybody at the house until he was ready. He must have been really peed off when Dr Stipp showed up out of the blue!

 

[Gryffindor]

She wasn't in the left hand corner though, she was directly behind the door standing face on to it .. the ballistics expert testified that. I'm not really sure why these pieces of information that have been testified by experts keep being dismissed? The ballistics man knew what he was talking about and there is no question about him being wrong.

Yes in the corner edge face on to the door. I'm going by trajectory visuals and sleuthing, as per the forum. I dismissed no stats, merely considered my OWN

 

[TorisMom003]

So obvious he was stalling so he could get things 'cleared up' with Stander first. He didn't want anybody at the house until he was ready. He must have been really peed off when Dr Stipp showed up out of the blue!

Personally I believe he called Stander because of his daughter being a lawyer. I do not believe that he told Stander to call for an ambulance.

 

[james83]

So in Oscar's world of fantasy, how exactly does he explain the 15 minute gap between the gunshots and the bat sounds?

especially when in his affidavit from feb 2013 he describes this period like this

I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.
When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.
I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.

After reading the above, how long do you suppose that took?, 4 minutes at a push?.

 

[shane13]

As for him going back upstairs - it was obviously something urgent that needed doing because as soon as someone else turned up he disappeared upstairs, when anyone genuinely upset and concerned would never in a million years have left their girlfriend whom they had just shot. Shifty actions of a guilty man. Not the actions of what I would call a normal person who had supposedly just been part of a terrible accident. More the actions of a guilty person desperate to cover their tracks.

I believe that if OP tried to "cover his tracks" it would likely appear clumsy to experienced investigators because OP is pumped full of adrenaline and not thinking straight… this is probably why we see so many "weird" things in the crime scene :

- Blood spatter or cast-off above headboard
- Blood on watch display case
- Duvet on floor in front of bed with blood on both sides
- Big fan in front of balcony door essentially blocking passage to balcony and right side of bed
- Etc...

What he did do correctly IMO is:

- Substitute his work phone in the bathroom to fool the police
- Hand off the actual phone he used that night to his brother for further tampering
- Wash his hands and discard hit shirt somewhere
- Pick up the air gun and place it in a "normal" position
- Etc...

BBM
I am glad someone else appreciates the crime of removing the 5th phne from the crime scene as I have written about for nearly a year now.

But you have an assumption there that needs elucidation.
A year ago, we had from Botha that Carl and Oldwage werre there before him and going all over the place.

We have to update this to court testimony.
Aimee was there before them, and the Col in charge, van Rensburg, gave her free pass upstairs to take a watch, etc. Was she wearing crime scene shoe protectors? Was she watched every second when up there?

So we do not know who took (or was even given? the 5th phone).
But as I posted a few days ago, Nel said he didn't get it back till the 30th of Feb 2013.

Now for the bed and duvet blood.

This is all hypothetical now.
Is it possible that OP plunked her down on the bed, while the duvet was there on top of the bed. This could be say, needing to get a better grip so he needed to rest her there for a moment.

Or it could have been more sinsiter, such as attempting to cover her and carry her out to a car and take the body away. He had to change plans when others called and were about to be at his home. So he abandoned the duvet covering aspect and picked her up and was soon seen at the top of the stairs carrying her down.

And of course Nel did not elaborate, and experts said that they did not even test the blood above the headboard.

As I have written, what really happonened may be different from what both sides are alleging in court.

"This one runs deep."