Trial Discussion Thread #16

[Trooper]

labeling a theory as simple, doesn't exactly mean it needs to appeal to a simple mind. .

simple, in the terms of theory means elegant, exact and without furbishment.


this extra added frill of Oscar able to replicate the scream the witnesses heard is frilly in the extreme..

 

[james83]

And again coming back to Oscar's story that the shots were first, he realises that it's probably reeva in there so shoudn't he ring an ambulance the moment she doesn't respond to him?, of course not, he'd rather run around for about 10 minutes apparently.

 

[Trooper]

of course, one could float the theory, and its a simple one, for simple intellects, that Oscar, after murdering Reeva, decided to give a chortle of operatic aria's using his well known male voice, and his secret female voice at the one and the same time..


whoda thunk??

 

[steveml]

BIB. By "dramatics" it seems that you have left out the evidence of time, lots of time. Respectfully your theory seems incomplete, it should at least include the "dramatics" of evidence such as time and witness testimony, IMO.

No worries,

In a situation where witnesses are unable to agree on male/female voices, gunshots or cricket bat sounds, I'm very careful about putting too much weight on perceived emotion/tonal intonation. These were not next door neighbours in the traditional sense. They were some distance away.

I haven't included times. I'll have a guess though...

Gunshots probably lasted 3 seconds approx. A modern handgun can fire as quick as you can pull the trigger. Wiggle your index fig back and forwards 4 times. That's it. You've just released 4 shots.

From the start of the second wiggle of your finger to the fourth wiggle would be the only time Reeva had to make any sound once OP started to shoot at the door. OP then screams from the balcony and shouts for help.

He then continues to break door down. Eventually he get's in and manages to get Reeva into the bathroom. From here he phones Stander, after which the times are indicated via mobile records etc.

 

[jay-jay]

Just curious: in crime history, how many people have been shot and/or murdered behind a door? Any door. How many known occurrences?

It could be circumstantial but to me it just seems TOO "convenient" that it occurred behind a solid door.

OP: "I didn't have a clue what I was shooting at!??
Oh, sorry everyone. Oops"

Exactly, and that is the key to why it has all been so easy for him to make a credible (to some) story around this because there is nothing to prove that he killed Reeva with intent. If it had been in a country with no gun possession and someone flew off the handle with their partner and tried to kill/killed them, they would have to do with with a knife or some other means whereby they would be face to face with their victim and couldn't possibly get away with saying 'I didn't know it was her'. This whole thing hangs on the fact he shoot through a door and can pretend that he didn't know who it was .. and he knows that the rest of it is virtually unprovable, as it will all just be based on something that can be explained away in one way or another.

As someone said before, if he is treated lightly on this, and manages to convince the court that it was a case of mistaken identity when actually it wasn't, and manages to walk free (see link I posted earlier on the possiblity the judge may not end up giving him a jail sentence) .. then safe to say we can expect a whole load more women in countries were guns are legal, to be shot through the toilet door by their raging partners, then then claiming they thought it was an intruder.

 

[steveml]

You've missed my point.

I didn't say that a man can't scream. I said that I find it unlikely that a man would "scream" in a terrified fearful way after he realised he had accidentally shot his girlfriend dead.

My apologies.

I don't know the answer to that I'm afraid. I've never heard anyone in that situation.

 

[Mme Butterfly]

Hello everybody

I have been lurking for a while, and following the Oscar Pistorius case since the beginning. I live in South Africa. I haven't made up my mind yet. Can't wait for Oscar to tell his story in court.

 

[Trooper]

No worries,

In a situation where witnesses are unable to agree on male/female voices, gunshots or cricket bat sounds, I'm very careful about putting too much weight on perceived emotion/tonal intonation. These were not next door neighbours in the traditional sense. They were some distance away.

I haven't included times. I'll have a guess though...

Gunshots probably lasted 3 seconds approx. A modern handgun can fire as quick as you can pull the trigger. Wiggle your index fig back and forwards 4 times. That's it. You've just released 4 shots.

From the start of the second wiggle of your finger to the fourth wiggle would be the only time Reeva had to make any sound once OP started to shoot at the door. OP then screams from the balcony and shouts for help.

He then continues to break door down. Eventually he get's in and manages to get Reeva into the bathroom. From here he phones Stander, after which the times are indicated via mobile records etc.

re the bold bit.. this is misrepresentation.. all the witnesses testified they heard in separate voices, a man, and a woman. one, the woman screaming in a terrified way. the man less so. one said the mans voice was mocking .


not one witness has been moved from their stated testimony on this matter.

re cricket bat /guns. NOT one witness has been moved from their stated testimony re perceptions re cricket bats sounding like gunfire.

this misrepresentation of the facts is a bit thin at this state of the trial.

 

[Trooper]

unless and until one witness actually states that they heard a sound , and thought it was gunfire, but now in court, they've thought it over and a year on, they think it might have been a cricket bat..

until that is testified to. the gunshots heard is gunshots .

 

[Trooper]

the witnesses to these gunshots , cricket bat, man woman screaming were unable to agree with the defence theory...
that's the only place where an inability to agree has taken place..

 

[Viper]

An image from Lisa's blog showing numerous marks on the shower stall glass door:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/10.jpg

It appears to me to be bat strikes, 12 of them.

Edit: What sort of moron hits a glass door with a bat!? Nice to learn that they don't break easily though, I have a couple in my house. :smile:

 

[steveml]

so I'm asking.. how can Oscar replicate exactly a sound he's never heard??

He can't.

I don't see how anyone can reproduce a sound you make in such an emotive event, without that event happening. Not in a convincing way anyhow.

Do you really think the wailing we hear from both men and women during emotional trauma can be replicated on a whim (Malaysian Airlines recent tragedy, to quote one of the many thousands of examples)?

 

[jay-jay]

It's in a previous post, a couple of pages back.

It's very simple.

OP fires 4 shots into toilet, shortly afterwards realizes Reeva's in there

So how do you account for him not having heard Reeva:

- flush the toilet (it must've been flushed .. in his version of events .. as there was no toilet paper/urine in the bowl).

- scream in pain when he shoot her in the hip (accidentally .. in his version) with the first bullet .. then a pause (Reeva still screeming but apparently he doesn't hear) .. then goes on to fire three more bullets. (The shot-pause-shot-shot-shot as opposed to two double taps is not in question as the ballistics expert confirmed it as one shot, pause, then three further ones).

How do you account for him not having heard either of those things? .. esecially as he himself stated he was in a hightened state of alert .. and where your vision and hearing becomes far greater. And yet he heard a faint noise like a bathroom window sliding open, while he was out on the balcony .. and not even in a state of alert at that time until he heard the sound of that window sliding (according to his version).

 

[soozieqtips]

From his affidavit:

"I will stand my trial should it proceed against me".

So he had some sort of idea that his fairytale would just be accepted?

 

[steveml]

re the bold bit.. this is misrepresentation.. all the witnesses testified they heard in separate voices, a man, and a woman. one, the woman screaming in a terrified way. the man less so. one said the mans voice was mocking .


not one witness has been moved from their stated testimony on this matter.

re cricket bat /guns. NOT one witness has been moved from their stated testimony re perceptions re cricket bats sounding like gunfire.

this misrepresentation of the facts is a bit thin at this state of the trial.

Thank you for your kind clarification.

...it still doesn't make any difference to my theory though.

 

[james83]

I see it like this at the moment, not sure about first sounds at the moment still wondering about that metal panel in the bathroom, but anyway
3.16/17 Shots fired in a rage
Followed by what he has just done sinking into Oscar, he has no idea what to do next, he runs and shouts help from his balcony, he then telephones Stander, i don't believe Oscar rang Stander to tell him to call an ambulance i believe he rang him in a total panic, i believe Stander told Oscar he will come over and told Oscar to ring an ambulance, so Oscar then phones Netcare, see at this point i personally don't believe the bat has been used on the door yet, so when Oscar rings netcare he has no idea of her injuries, hence them telling him to bring her in, there is no way they would have told him to bring her in if they knew she'd been shot in the head.
The time when the netcare call ends is 3:21:11 at this point Oscar realises he better get the toilet door open, he goes to his bedroom, grabs the bat and goes back to break the door down, he drags Reeva out into the bathroom, he then goes back to his bedroom and put's his prosthesis on(hence unexplained blood in bedroom) and carries her downstairs by which point The Standers and Baba have arrived.

That's my opinion at the moment.

 

[Trooper]

From his affidavit:

"I will stand my trial should it proceed against me".

So he had some sort of idea that his fairytale would just be accepted?

at that time,Sooz. his brother had just got his original charge dropped down to culpable homicide, from vehicular murder.. You recall Carl ran down a woman motorcyclist, and Kenny Oldwage was Carls barrister. he got a suspended sentence I think.. .

I honestly think they thought it would be the same procedure with Oscar..

 

[Trooper]

Thank you for your kind clarification.

...it still doesn't make any difference to my theory though.

it wasn't meant to .. my post was for clarification of other readers..

I would never come between a bloke and his beloved theory.

 

[BlueShoe]

I see it like this at the moment, not sure about first sounds at the moment still wondering about that metal panel in the bathroom, but anyway
3.16/17 Shots fired in a rage
Followed by what he has just done sinking into Oscar, he has no idea what to do next, he runs and shouts help from his balcony, he then telephones Stander, i don't believe Oscar rang Stander to tell him to call an ambulance i believe he rang him in a total panic, i believe Stander told Oscar he will come over and told Oscar to ring an ambulance, so Oscar then phones Netcare, see at this point i personally don't believe the bat has been used on the door yet, so when Oscar rings netcare he has no idea of her injuries, hence them telling him to bring her in, there is no way they would have told him to bring her in if they knew she'd been shot in the head.
The time when the netcare call ends is 3:21:11 at this point Oscar realises he better get the toilet door open, he goes to his bedroom, grabs the bat and goes back to break the door down, he drags Reeva out into the bathroom, he then goes back to his bedroom and put's his prosthesis on(hence unexplained blood in bedroom) and carries her downstairs by which point The Standers and Baba have arrived.

That's my opinion at the moment.

Most convincing theory yet. IMO

 

[steveml]

So how do you account for him not having heard Reeva:

- flush the toilet (it must've been flushed .. in his version of events .. as there was no toilet paper/urine in the bowl).

- scream in pain when he shoot her in the hip (accidentally .. in his version) with the first bullet .. then a pause (Reeva still screeming but apparently he doesn't hear) .. then goes on to fire three more bullets. (The shot-pause-shot-shot-shot as opposed to two double taps is not in question as the ballistics expert confirmed it as one shot, pause, then three further ones).

How do you account for him not having heard either of those things? .. esecially as he himself stated he was in a hightened state of alert .. and where your vision and hearing becomes far greater. And yet he heard a faint noise like a bathroom window sliding open, while he was out on the balcony .. and not even in a state of alert at that time until he heard the sound of that window sliding (according to his version).

I haven't accounted for these because I believe that he does have inexcusable issues regarding safety and recklessness.

There is no way I could ever imagine myself doing what he did. I would have checked on my partner first, before anything.

I'm not convinced Reeva would have made a sound.

I'd have liked the ballistics expert to have given a clearer indication of how far away from the door OP was.

Unfortunately we don't have evidence for this, only probables.

That said, it doesn't give me carte blanche to suggest he stalked and killed a woman unless I believe in all likelihood that he did. That would be easy for me to do.

There is the possibility my opinion could change once OP takes the stand, we're only halfway through yet.