Trial Discussion Thread #17

[james83]

Oscar charged with firing gun in restaurant, he must have known the whatsapp message he sent to Reeva where he is clearly caught out would be brought up, so what does he do?, he pleads not guilty.

Oscar charged with possession of illegal ammo that was found in his safe in his house, so what does Oscar do?, he pleads not guilty.

i find it absolutely stunning that anyone can be as arrogant as to plead not guilty to these charges that he is clearly guilty of when you are also up on a murder charge, you really would do yourself a favour and just admit to those charges wouldn't you?, instead he pleads not guilty because he seem's to think he is above the law, i can only imagine what the Judge think's of this clown trying to insult her intelligence.
I would be surprised if his defence team didn't plead with him to plead guilty on those charges before the trial begun.
What an utter arrogant fool this man is.

 

[steveml]

I note that some posters think it impossible/unlikely that RS screamed. Having done some research I find it is most likely that she would have screamed and I think that is what the pathologist says. It is an involuntary action when suddenly suffering extreme pain/shock. I am sure you will all know if you hit yourself with a hammer or have a car door closed on your fingers, one will involuntarily yell or groan. One of the more odius examples is people being put to death by gunshot (Middle East conflict springs to mind) often scream when hit by a bullet to the head. However, a bullet injury may not be actually felt at all to start with but the shock is enormous.

I think a lot of the screaming from RS was done whilst she was being "chased" or "threatened". If OP did bang on the door prior to the shooting she no doubt would have screamed with fright but to suggest she could not have screamed at all is very unlikely and it is impossible to discount witness testimony, as much as some of you would like too.

No doubt the final three shots will be analyzed, investigated and if the DT cannot show otherwise then it will probably stand as a probability that cannot be disproved.

You do realise however, that if it can be shown that the first shot was the head shot, then all bets are off regarding witness claims after that shot was fired? There would be no noise whatsoever from Reeva.

I haven't personally seen an example that claims evidence of a person screaming after instant death, or screaming when executed with a bullet direct to the head. If you have any examples I'd be interested to know, not to prove right or wrong, just genuinely interested.

:smile:

 

[james83]

No doubt the final three shots will be analyzed, investigated and if the DT cannot show otherwise then it will probably stand as a probability that cannot be disproved.

You do realise however, that if it can be shown that the first shot was the head shot, then all bets are off regarding witness claims after that shot was fired? There would be no noise whatsoever from Reeva.

I haven't personally seen an example that claims evidence of a person screaming after instant death, or screaming when executed with a bullet direct to the head. If you have any examples I'd be interested to know, not to prove right or wrong, just genuinely interested.

:smile:

I disagree, even if the head shot was first she could have been screaming up until the moment it hit her, from a distance it would be difficult to tell exactly when the screaming stopped with bullets firing at the same time, all that is important is if there was screaming before the gunshots.
Also why would the defence ballistic's analysis suddenly be more important than the prosecution's?, if one said headshot was 3rd or 4th and the other said it was 1st than the judge would more than likely consider both were possible, it would not mean all bets were off at all.

 

[steveml]

Interesting .. thanks for that. I'm not convinced about the keys ever having been on the floor on the inside of the toilet, and I'm not even convinced they were in the inside lock while Reeva was in there (I happen to think they were on the outside all the while she was in there ) .. we only have his word for it that they were on the inside.

So do you think this is a cover up job jay-jay?

If he's done a cover-up job, he's made a glaring mistake here. I can't think he forgot to take the keys out, then went back upstairs after the shooting and again forgot to remove the keys.

Please don't say it's a double-bluff. lease:

 

[jay-jay]

I hope they do do that, it's brilliant! As for possibly seeing the pic of RS's ex, do you recall if it was the jockey or the one that made that tweet?

In the fleeting fraction of a second I saw it, I thought it looked like Hougaard .. and I registered that because (imo) I think he is not typically good looking .. it didn't look like Wayne (saw him in that documentary about Reeva, and I thought he was the much better looking out of the two .. only imo, and for the purpose of distinguishing between the two, and who I am pretty sure it was I saw flashed up on the screen -->> Hougaard, I mean).

 

[Gryffindor]

No doubt the final three shots will be analyzed, investigated and if the DT cannot show otherwise then it will probably stand as a probability that cannot be disproved.

You do realise however, that if it can be shown that the first shot was the head shot, then all bets are off regarding witness claims after that shot was fired? There would be no noise whatsoever from Reeva.

I haven't personally seen an example that claims evidence of a person screaming after instant death, or screaming when executed with a bullet direct to the head. If you have any examples I'd be interested to know, not to prove right or wrong, just genuinely interested.

:smile:

I don't see how logistically and physically the shots can be in a different order to those already testified by the ballistics expert. If head first, how could hip, arm and graze on left hand fingers be possible??

And she certainly couldn't have managed the defensive raised arms position AFTER a head shot, allowing for right arm to be hit.

Head was over toilet, thus right side of body would've been untouchable for injury for subsequent 2 bullets.

 

[jay-jay]

So do you think this is a cover up job jay-jay?

If he's done a cover-up job, he's made a glaring mistake here. I can't think he forgot to take the keys out, then went back upstairs after the shooting and again forgot to remove the keys.

Please don't say it's a double-bluff. lease:

No, he didn't need to take the keys out .. the keys had to remain there, on the outside, as that was his 'reason' for having to break the door down with the cricket bat (i.e. that he needed them to open the door from the outside). My view is that they were there all along .. he never actually needed to fish about inside the door to get the key, he's just saying he needed to, to try and prove that Reeva was locked in there from the inside.

Edit: although it now seems to be taken as gospel truth that Reeva was locked in there from the inside, and many people are wondering why she would do that, we don't actually know for sure that that was the case. We only have OP's word for it that Reeva had locked the door from the inside.

 

[Insp.Dots]

IIRC, No evidence to date has been presented that the door key to the toilette was ever on the inside of the toilette.

Nor do we know that a key, be it inside or outside, was attached to that door on an ongoing basis.

Oscar lived alone - why would he need or want a key to his own personal toilette door? Are keys attached to other toilette doors in his house? Having a key hole alone does not require/imply that there must be key in that hole at all times.

The one close up photo of the toilette key that has been made available to the public (although poor quality and taken on March 8 2013) appears to show a green key tag with at least two keys attached … how odd to have a dedicated key for the toilette with 2 or more keys attached.

Moreover, no blood is apparent on the green tag.
If this set of keys was recovered from a blood covered floor, I would have expected at least some blood to have been transferred to the tag. Of course, it is possible that the keys were knocked out of the hole (if that’s how they ended up on the floor ) and fell on to one of the few areas of the floor that were void of blood.

Another household key that has somewhat of a mystery surrounding it, is the key to the safe located in the kitchen. There were two safes in Oscar's house -- one in the bedroom closet (a combination lock type), and one in the kitchen (a keyed lock). Curiously, a locksmith had to be called in by the Pistorius family to open the safe in the kitchen.

Google is our friend…
https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=ctrl&ei=q7MtU66YDKzE8gfRj4GABw&gws_rd=cr#q=oscar+pistorius+locksmith

Where was the kitchen safe key?
Why was such an important key not available?
Was it attached to the toilette key chain which is now in police custody?

Perhaps I missed some important testimony in either the bail hearing or the trial thus far that would shed some light on the mystery surrounding these keys.

Some of my darkest thoughts regarding that evening would be put to rest if anyone can point me to some evidence however weak (excluding Ops affidavit) that:
a) The toilette door key had been inside the toilette room
b) There is only one key attached to the toilette room lock
c) The kitchen safe key has been recovered

Ps. I wish to commend the many thoughtful, logical and scientific posters on Websleuths for their undeterred search for the truth…you know who you are��

Lastly, I wish to thank Juror13 for the most outstanding, accurate and thoroughly detailed compendium of the trial. It’s a masterpiece!

Great post and excellent points. The keys are indeed a mystery. In one of the statement s OP says he finds the key on the toilet floor. I am guessing we are to assume he knocked it out of the door what bashing with the cricket bat. Like others I am wary of this as the key does usually have to be turned before removing and wouldn't just fall or be knocked out. I personally don't have a problem with RS having possibly locked the door. I myself do this out of habit in my own house. I don't want 'anyone' walking in on me, other half or kids. To state 'no-one' would lock the door is to me bizarre.....why do 90% of toilet doors locks have on if that is true?
I think the defence will probably just say Reeva locked the door upon hearing OP shouting at the would be intruder. It has crossed my mind that he may have locked her in to stop her leaving, but that is just a random thought with no true substance. All just thoughts in our search for Justice IMO.

 

[BlueShoe]

Since it is IMPOSSIBLE that the second set of bangs was the gunshots... it only leaves the first set... whatever time that was (IMO around 3:10)
__________________

I would quibble about the term, IMPOSSIBLE, simply because there are several possible ways that that the second bangs could be the gunshots. I can see the point made by several posters, that between 3:17 of the gunshots and approximately 3:19 is too brief a period for OP to do everything he claims. Still either of these scenarios can work:

1. OP lies in portions of his statements about everything he did. He only went to put on his prostheses and pried the door open before making his phone call at 3:19. Two minutes is plenty of time for this. He could drag Reeva's body out and carry her down the stairs subsequently.

2. A definitive time of 3:17 has not been established for the loud bangs. The Stipps said 3:17 on a clock they said was 3 or 4 minutes fast. Thus, there could have been 5 or 6 minutes between bangs and phone call, plenty of time to rush around as per OP's statment.

3. All possible combinations of 1 and 2.

Therefore, while various posters may have their preferences of which came first, the gunshots being last is most definitely NOT IMPOSSIBLE. MOO

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Would having Gina Myers on the stand have helped the PT? Reeva seemed to be in most constant contact with Gina. Could she have shed light on how Reeva was latterly, her fears, worries, troubles, Oscar??

Calls, texts, massages, in person conversations they'd had?

I was very surprised that we didn't hear from Gina especially as the last text she received wasn't signed off in the normal manner,the ex boyfriend and the live in staff.
I guess we just have to trust that Nel is as good at his job as reports say he is .
I am still not sure of his strategy but am leaning towards his charge statement that it is pre meditated murder whether he thought it was Reeva or not .
It seems getting his gun and walking towards the intruder and pumping 4 shots into a tiny space is all it takes for it to be pre meditated under SA law ( would love to hear from anyone with SA law experience here )
As OP is no doubt going to be claiming vulnerability and fear as his justification the onus is on him to prove that ? The prosecution don't need to prove he shot her because he has admitted that .
I do get distracted by the very long list of things that stretch my imagination of what a reasonable person would do under those circumstances ,just to name a few the selective hearing ,his behaviour immediately after the shooting in not calling an ambulance first then telling security he was fine ,Leaving Reeva with the Doctor to go upstairs ,the with holding of his phone and forgotten password so just can't but his version for that reason .
We have all discussed these points at length so without very compelling evidence from the defence which I will listen to I don't see me changing my opinion on this

If it is found that he is innocent I would seriously recommend that ladies (or men for that matter ) in SA never go to the loo in the night and if they do always turn the all the lights on and never never close or lock the toilet door .If I did I think I would take my loo door off and just have one to the bathroom .
JMOO

 

[steveml]

I disagree, even if the head shot was first she could have been screaming up until the moment it hit her, from a distance it would be difficult to tell exactly when the screaming stopped with bullets firing at the same time, all that is important is if there was screaming before the gunshots.
Also why would the defence ballistic's analysis suddenly be more important than the prosecution's?, if one said headshot was 3rd or 4th and the other said it was 1st than the judge would more than likely consider both were possible, it would not mean all bets were off at all.

That would only stand if it was proven to be cricket bat noise first.

Whatever noises were heard, it's a real stretch to suggest that anybody heard screaming before the first noise. The witness statements suggest otherwise.

Just for reference, a pistol bullet can travel at over 1000kph (the blink of an eye is the nearest quickest body movement).

 

[jay-jay]

The keys are indeed a mystery. In one of the statement s OP says he finds the key on the toilet floor. I am guessing we are to assume he knocked it out of the door what bashing with the cricket bat. Like others I am wary of this as the key does usually have to be turned before removing and wouldn't just fall or be knocked out.

Yup, I think a number of us are agreed on this now .. and this is going to be a real sticking point.

The only way those keys would've fallen out is if they weren't turned in the lock .. but then in that case, he wouldn't have needed to bash the door down with the cricket bat would he? I think he's stuffed, basically!

 

[james83]

No, he didn't need to take the keys out .. the keys had to remain there, on the outside, as that was his 'reason' for having to break the door down with the cricket bat (i.e. that he needed them to open the door from the outside). My view is that they were there all along .. he never actually needed to fish about inside the door to get the key, he's just saying he needed to, to try and prove that Reeva was locked in there from the inside.

Edit: although it now seems to be taken as gospel truth that Reeva was locked in there from the inside, and many people are wondering why she would do that, we don't actually know for sure that that was the case. We only have OP's word for it that Reeva had locked the door from the inside.

Locked her in because she wanted to leave?, the jeans outside do add weight to this theory.
I suppose it's just a case of how he ended up shooting at her, maybe they were arguing and she said something that tipped him over the edge.

 

[Noisy Fan]

Good morning all,

If there were shots fired and then a gap of time passes and then some more shots fired and if the number of shots heard totals 6 or 7 and all the witnesses testify that all were gun shots, and if the physical evidence supports only 4 gun shots along with some cricket bat impacts, is it fair to assume that at least some of the impacts heard must have been the cricket bat?

If yes, can we assume that the gunshots and the cricket bat impacts sounded the same?

Other explanations please ...

 

[james83]

Good morning all,

If there were shots fired and then a gap of time passes and then some more shots fired and if the number of shots heard totals 6 or 7 and all the witnesses testify that all were gun shots, and if the physical evidence supports only 4 gun shots along with some cricket bat impacts, is it fair to assume that at least some of the impacts heard must have been the cricket bat?

If yes, can we assume that the gunshots and the cricket bat impacts sounded the same?

Other explanations please ...

Smashed in metal plate, damage to bedroom door, wall tiles on the floor.

 

[Noisy Fan]

Smashed in metal plate, damage to bedroom door, wall tiles on the floor.

so that would be a yes, the cricket bat sounded like the gun shots?

 

[james83]

so that would be a yes, the cricket bat sounded like the gun shots?

Don't recall where i said that.
My personal belief is no one heard the cricket bat smashing the door open, except for the murderer.

 

[Cherwell]

I say I would risk a prison sentence before I would take my chances and risk my life, but it's really impossible to predict exactly what you would do in the situation. That one time that there was someone trying to get into my house - I was so scared I was literally almost paralyzed. I could not think clearly at all.

You see, I just don't get it.
Why he would be so scared by one little noise coming from the bathroom.
If he had been alone in the house, OK.
But he knew he wasn't.

Can anybody explain his "terror"?

 

[Gryffindor]

Don't recall where i said that.
My personal belief is no one heard the cricket bat smashing the door open, except for the murderer.

Agreed, impossible to hear cricket bat. It was only used to prise out a panel or 2.

However, a metal baseball bat on a metal plate????

 

[james83]

Agreed, impossible to hear cricket bat. It was only used to prise out a panel or 2.

However, a metal baseball bat on a metal plate????

Yes the sound of metal being hit to me is an explanation for the first sounds, JMO