Trial Discussion Thread #22 - 14.04.10, Day 20

[asanque]

Was he walking around with the bat, but then took his legs off to shoot, and then put his legs back on again? Even more time. And kinda silly to imagine him doing that?

There is clear evidence of two events that made bangs. Two sets of bangs heard, and times known (at least roughly). The State evidence is that gun shots were first.

I really can not see why people do not grasp what the sequence of events was in this case.

Can someone confirm for me that the State has conceded he was not on his prosthetics when shooting?

Just to clarify the State evidence is that witnesses heard loud banging (presumably gunshots) at 3:00 but also additional banging (presumably gunshots) at 3:17

 

[Rumpole]

I don't see that the STATE evidence taken as a whole leaves any room to doubt the sequence of events.

Time of the cricket bat blows is known precisely, and we know roughly when the shots were.

Gunshots (3:00 - 3:10)... 5 minutes or more period of time... cricket bat (3:17).

Surely that is known now?

That still leaves room for people to discuss whether OP shot Reeva on purpose. Argued, chased and trapped her in the toilet and then shot knowing she was behind the door. Personally I see evidence to refute that as well, but the simple sequence of events is surely obvious?

 

[minor4th]

That's interesting. I would think it would favor the prosecution more than the defense.

I saw today's testimony with the fan nonsense. That picture of the fan and duvet does kind of destroy Oscar's testimony. They will have to prove it was changed from the original. I did see another picture where the cord on the desk was in a different location. So maybe they can.

But there seems to be so little space between the sliding doors and the bed, that even with the fans where OP said they would be, Reeva would have to get out of bed on his side, or she would run into fans and cords in the dark room, anyways. That whole set up looked very dangerous. Not that it's an issue anymore. Just strange.

I thought it would be a big issue too but for some reason it's not.

With Reeva being so close to OP when he moved the fans, it is hard to believe that he didn't see her or didn't hear her getting up to go to the bathroom. I guess she would have had to get out of bed on his side.

About the fan and duvet - I don't know if you saw the earlier part of the trial but there are big problems with the police photos of the crime scene. Seems there were too many people wandering around the crime scene and moving evidence before it could be preserved and photographed.

 

[molly333]

Another question I have, if he's so paranoid about intruders [which I think sounds understandable given the situation there], why would he go to sleep with the balcony door wide open? Especially given his immediate fear the someone had come through the open bathroom window. So he locks the bedroom door and leaves the balcony open?

And, why would Reeve open that bathroom window? [It's his position that he didn't I guess].

 

[minor4th]

Can someone confirm for me that the State has conceded he was not on his prosthetics when shooting?

Just to clarify the State evidence is that witnesses heard loud banging (presumably gunshots) at 3:00 but also additional banging (presumably gunshots) at 3:17

Yes, the state has conceded in open court that they agree that he was on his stumps when shooting.

And yes, that is the state's evidence that witnesses heard loud bangs at 3:00 and those witnesses plus some additional witnesses also heard loud bangs at 3:17

 

[asanque]

I don't see that the STATE evidence taken as a whole leaves any room to doubt the sequence of events.

Gunshots... 5 minutes or more period of time... cricket bat.

Surely that is known now?

That still leaves room for people to discuss whether OP shot Reeva on purpose. Argued, chased and trapped her in the toilet and then shot knowing she was behind the door. Personally I see evidence to refute that as well, but the simple sequence of events is surely obvious?

You forget the numerous sets of witnesses hearing a woman screaming after the initial bangs.

How do you reconcile that evidence?

 

[asanque]

With Reeva being so close to OP when he moved the fans, it is hard to believe that he didn't see her or didn't hear her getting up to go to the bathroom. I guess she would have had to get out of bed on his side.

Don't forget that Reeva also had to pick up her phone on the way that would have presumably been on the right hand side of the bed too (also unnoticed by OP)

 

[molly333]

I thought it would be a big issue too but for some reason it's not.

With Reeva being so close to OP when he moved the fans, it is hard to believe that he didn't see her or didn't hear her getting up to go to the bathroom. I guess she would have had to get out of bed on his side.

About the fan and duvet - I don't know if you saw the earlier part of the trial but there are big problems with the police photos of the crime scene. Seems there were too many people wandering around the crime scene and moving evidence before it could be preserved and photographed.

I watched a CSI youtube where they took both sides and looked at the evidence. They set up a facsimile of the bedroom and when they turned the lights out and pulled the drapes shut, it was impossible to see anything. Also, he had his back to the bed when he was moving the fans, and he had the noise of the fans in his ear, so I could actually believe he did not hear Reeva move or see her, or know that she was no longer in the bed when he turned around. It was very convincing.

Thanks for info on photo problems. I had assumed that from what little I heard.

 

[crasshopper]

I haven't been following on Websleuths, but I have been following the trial and watching on Youtube. Would someone who knows how put up a poll on whether they think OP is telling the truth or lying? I have to say, he's very convincing -- probably the most convincing defendant I've ever heard and I am an avid trial watcher. I'm curious to see what percentage of people on here think he is lying or telling the/his truth.

Avid trial watcher too here and I find him to be among the worst defendants I've seen take the stand, of course no one comes close to Jodi.

OP->Case report for why you should avoid having the defendant take the stand at all costs.

 

[molly333]

Don't forget that Reeva also had to pick up her phone on the way that would have presumably been on the right hand side of the bed too (also unnoticed by OP)

Yeah. Is that normal to take your phone into the bathroom at 300am, lock the door, and by the way, be fully dressed? Seems odd.

You'd have to be really addicted to that phone.

 

[minor4th]

Don't forget that Reeva also had to pick up her phone on the way that would have presumably been on the right hand side of the bed too (also unnoticed by OP)

Yeah, I agree there are things about his story that really don't make sense.

 

[Rumpole]

You forget the numerous sets of witnesses hearing a woman screaming after the initial bangs.

How do you reconcile that evidence?

I have not forgotten it. I accept that people have testified to screams. I certainly do not think they are lying (though I see signs of them "massaging" their testimony)

I don't have to reconcile that. I KNOW what the sequence of events was.

I don't doubt they heard screams, but they did not SEE who uttered the screams. The are simply mistaken about it being Reeva (she was already dead).

 

[asanque]

Yes, the state has conceded in open court that they agree that he was on his stumps when shooting.

Thanks

I have confirmed that was part of Mangena's testimony.

I'm willing to concede that the events from 3:17 to 4:00 get pretty tight regarding timeframes.

The question is when did Mr. Stipp arrive?

I will also be interested in hearing the testimony from the Standers as well.

 

[molly333]

Was there any good reason to put OP on the stand?

Personally, I can't think of one.

 

[asanque]

Yeah. Is that normal to take your phone into the bathroom at 300am, lock the door, and by the way, be fully dressed? Seems odd.

You'd have to be really addicted to that phone.

The question also is: why didn't Reeva switch on any lights on the way to the bathroom?

 

[minor4th]

Was there any good reason to put OP on the stand?

Personally, I can't think of one.

He's basically using a self defense type argument so he pretty much had to take the stand to testify about what was in his mind and how he feared an intruder

 

[Whiteorchids]

Another question I have, if he's so paranoid about intruders [which I think sounds understandable given the situation there], why would he go to sleep with the balcony door wide open? Especially given his immediate fear the someone had come through the open bathroom window. So he locks the bedroom door and leaves the balcony open?

And, why would Reeve open that bathroom window? [It's his position that he didn't I guess].

Good point. Why didn't he knock on the toilet door and ask Reeva if she was in there? That would have been the first question anyone would ask with a visitor staying the night in their bed. People just don't go shooting through closed doors like a bathroom.

He had just told her in bed he was hot. Reeva opening the bathroom window would help him cool off. Again, poor Reeva was helping him and he killed her. Great guy.

 

[katydid23]

I watched a CSI youtube where they took both sides and looked at the evidence. They set up a facsimile of the bedroom and when they turned the lights out and pulled the drapes shut, it was impossible to see anything. Also, he had his back to the bed when he was moving the fans, and he had the noise of the fans in his ear, so I could actually believe he did not hear Reeva move or see her, or know that she was no longer in the bed when he turned around. It was very convincing.

Thanks for info on photo problems. I had assumed that from what little I heard.

BBM


But that only works if you take his version of events as factual. My problem is this: since he knew she was already awake when he woke up, why did he do everything in pitch darkness? Why did he pull the blackout curtains shut and walk around in total darkness on his stumps, to try and set up and plug in fans?

 

[Whiteorchids]

The question also is: why didn't Reeva switch on any lights on the way to the bathroom?

Because she was hiding from him in the locked bathroom. IMO

 

[jassy writer]

Firstly, OP had five days to produce his statement, which he did so with the help of his legal team who had observed the scene in detail. This is why the statement fits the facts so neatly, but yet there are gaping holes in its logic which he could not have foreseen (i.e. that there was no space on the adaptor for two fans to be plugged in, that he could not have moved the fan to the position he stated without unplugging it, that he cannot explain the duvet on the floor - and this is only so far!)

Secondly, at the time that the scene was photographed, the police had no idea of Oscar's statement. The defense will do their best to make a huge fuss about the fact that things were moved... inevitably they had to be moved during the course of the investigation and photography, but as Gerrie Nel pointed out yesterday, you cannot assume that there was a huge conspiracy to frame OP when he had not even made his statement. And for a policeman to have moved both fans, taken the duvet off the bed, opened the door and curtains to a different position, all before taking a single photo, begs the huge question "why"?

In making her decision I believe the judge will most definitely take into account the fact that OP is prepared to blatantly lie under oath and has been caught out doing this and still refused to alter his story or his plea. (the finger on the trigger of the Glock, which he insists did not happen).