Trial Discussion Thread #25 - 14.04.14, Day 22

[molly333]

just running through op version. i did a count

03:15ish
1. down the dark hall [on stumps] shoots
2. returns in darkness [on stumps] to check for reeva
3. back to toilet, in darkness [on stumps] to find door is locked
4. back to balcony, in darkness [on stumps] to call help, help, help
... puts on legs
5. back to toilet [on legs] kicks door
6. back to bedroom [on legs] for cricket bat
7. back to door [on legs] to break it open
8. downstairs [on legs] to open door
9. upstairs to bathroom [on legs] to collect body.
10. down to first landing carrying body [on legs] as security guy enters 03:26ish

plus 5 minutes sitting by the body

not sure if i added too many trips...

Thanks. So what he testified to today, he ran to the bedroom looking for Reeva. Jumped on the bed. Checked the floor on Reeva's side of the bed.
Checked the curtains?

Back to the bathroom. Door locked. Back to the bedroom, this time to the balcony. Ran out on the balcony to yell for help.

Never checked to see if she ran out the bedroom door, and, at this point hadn't yet turned on the lights in the bedroom. Didn't call police or security on ambulance by phone.

 

[Cherwell]

I think Nel has brought out a good point when he says that it's a big leap for OP to start worrying about it being Reeva in the loo so quickly.

If he was so convinced it was a burglar, what changed his thinking so rapidly? An obvious thing for Reeva to do, in the circumstances he has described, is to leave the bedroom and go away from the place of the break-in. It's also telling that OP stopped looking for burglars immediately, he does not look out of the window to see if there was anyone coming up a ladder.

It looks like he never believed there were intruders, and he knew where Reeva was all along.

 

[jay-jay]

"Dolus directus, on the other hand, known as intention in its ordinary grammatical sense, is present when the accused’s aim and object is to bring about the unlawful consequence, even should the chance of its resulting be small."

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictiona...sDirectus.aspx

OP has admitted that he knew someone was in the confined space of the toilet room.

He pulled the trigger 4 times, with the intent to shoot whomever was behind the toilet door.

According to SA criminal statues, his actions demonstrate dolus directus, IMO.

.. just bringing this over from the other thread ... add to that, following this morning's x-exam, the fact that he has confirmed he knew the likelihood of a 'hit' within such a confined space .. i.e. he stated that he didn't shoot into the shower cubicle because of the chance of him being hit by the ricocheted bullet .. which proves that he knows if he missed the person in the toilet cubicle with the shot through the door, he's got a pretty good chance of them still being hit by the bullet when it ricochets off the wall behind them. Then take into account the fact he fired his gun 4 times, then if you multiply that by the chance of the ricochet hitting them, then he has actually tried to hit them 8 times .. and he has proved (by what he said about shooting/not shooting into the shower cubicle) that he knew that was the case .. and thereby it can be nothing other than intent to kill.

 

[aoibhinn]

Sorry for barging in and many thanks for the updates. I've only started following last weekend and I'm not fully caught up.

A question for those familiar with handguns. The shots appear to have been deliberately aimed in the door, aligning with the 'bang -- pause -- bang, bang, bang' reported. It's claimed that OP supported himself by placing a hand against the wall (or did he support himself against the wall with his back?)

I'm not familiar with guns, but I believe there's quite a recoil from a pistol. Would this have not affected his balance, especially being on stumps, and also his aim? TIA

Cant find her in the place you told her to get down. Ok check balcony...fine. She's not there. Panic sets in surely, you rush downstairs to check if she was there.

Snipped for space...

I have also wondered why it never occurred to OP (or anyone else) that Reeva may have fled downstairs and hid. Why immediately assume that she had been in the toilet stall?

 

[shane13]

I think Nel has brought out a good point when he says that it's a big leap for OP to start worrying about it being Reeva in the loo so quickly.

If he was so convinced it was a burglar, what changed his thinking so rapidly? An obvious thing for Reeva to do, in the circumstances he has described, is to leave the bedroom and go away from the place of the break-in. It's also telling that OP stopped looking for burglars immediately, he does not look out of the window to see if there was anyone coming up a ladder.

It looks like he never believed there were intruders, and he knew where Reeva was all along.

Yes, this is why I just wrote that Nel cleverly uses Oscar's own logic and fake story against him to carry it out further which ends up showing the absurdities and ,contradictions inherent in it.

 

[DebinGA]

I wonder if Roux's ballistics expert will support OP's revelation today that he shot one-handed with arm bent, not extended?

 

[sleuth-d-]

Do you have a link for the exact time the security guy/Stander arrives?

Edit: I believe it is 3:45 ish

post #429. thread over the weekend


According to phone logs, the 2nd set of bangs occurred shortly before 3:15:51a.m., as that is the time Dr. Stipp finally got through to estate security (after hearing 2nd set of bangs).

Before calling Stander and Netcare, OP put on his legs & pried the panels out of the toilet door.

OP called Stander at 3:19:03. That call lasted 24 seconds.

OP called Netcare at 3:20:05. That call lasted 66 seconds.

OP testified that he then went downstairs to unlock the front door, returned upstairs to carry Reeva downstairs.

3:21:33 outgoing call to Baba (estate security) lasted 9 seconds, during which OP did not speak. Baba thought he heard OP crying. That call was likely made by mistake.

3:22:05 Baba pulled up in front of OP's house, called OP. OP said "everything is fine" and hung up.

Shortly after, Baba said that Stander and his daughter pulled up in front of OP's house.

Stander, Stander's daughter Clarice, Baba, and another security guard raced to OP's front door. They saw OP on the landing of the stairs holding Reeva, and then saw OP carry Reeva down the stairs.



........

 

[Rumpole]

The State does not have to lay out a "version"! That would be a prosecution playing with fiction when they only have, as they declared at the beginning, circumstantial evidence.

With what you are saying if the police were called to a scene and found a a man in a room with a smoking gun and a bleeding body on the floor with shots in it and the man remained silent without ever saying anything to the police, the prosecution would have to invent a whole story of what had happened to be able to charge him ?

It is the Judge who will work out from the evidence and the inferences coming out during this cross what the verdict is.

The State DO have to present some version of events.

Look at all the wild theories posted here? Ranging fom OP chasing Reeva all around the house on his stumps, smashing doors, windows, firing an air rifle, watching Gay *advertiser censored*, firing extra shots out the window. Bashing the toilet door but leaving it delicately poised so that he can see Reeva etc etc etc. There has to be a REALISTIC version... a hypothesis of when the "argument" started.. and why? Why would a rational young man decide to chase, trap his (loved) girlfriend and shoot her at 3:00AM????... that is the biggest thing that "Does not make any sense"... The State do have to propose why such a bizarre event occurred at all. There is also the evidence and time line arising from State's own witnesses. It all fits OP's version and NOT the State's version, I gather from hints such as shots at 3:17... that is impossible and makes the State's version impossible from the outset (whatever the other details are)... stuff like that needs to be presented.. and the Defense have to have the opportunity to tear it apart... in the same way that Nel is attempting to tear OP's version apart.

I put it to you that it will be easy peasy to tear the State's version apart. Their own witnesses have already done that.

 

[kittychi]

Could be, but iirc, nothing to that nature has been put into evidence. Not yet, anyway.

Right...but that blood, the blood on the bedroom wall near the headboard and blood on the watch case haven't yet been explained.

 

[Goforgold]

I get the LED line of questioning a little bit (i.e., why the one LED light on the amp would bother him when didn't bother to cover other LED lights) however I get TOTALLY lost with the jeans getting thrown over the amp to cover the light and eventually end up on the floor on top of the duvet cover (per the photo) and Oscar's insistence that the jeans were NOT on top of the duvet.

I just don't understand what is even being implied. It's driving me crazy what the big deal is I am missing.

I could be totally wrong, but I thought the point about the jeans was that if OP's version is that the duvet was on the bed and one of the Policeman moved it off the bed, then the jeans would have been slightly 'under' the duvet and not 'slightly' on top. Unless of course the policeman also moved the jeans, the duvet and everything else!

 

[Interested Bystander]

I am finding it a little odd, just like Nel, that OP can remember in great detail every aspect of his story as per his trial statement which he hopes will give him a not guilty verdict but he cannot remember anything else.

 

[shane13]

Again about Oscar on his stumps.

In his autobio, Blade Runner, OP details what a great natural athlete he is. And what great balance and speed he has or had on his stumps.

He wrote that till the age of 12, he "beat the competiton" running on his stumps.

Of course his body is different now with large upper body musculature (though nowhere near as large as Mark Batchelor).

So we can't be certain he has the same great balance and relative speed on his stumps as when he was 12. But I would wager his balance is far better than he is alleging now.

Likewise again I've detailed that he would never kick that door with his prosthetic legs. because he detailed that (unlike his running carbon J-blades), the regular prosthetics are fiibergalss and would shatter and he would fall if he kicked that door. JMO

 

[aa9511]

I bought breakfast with me this morning. German bread rolls (pumpkin seed one is mine!), smoked cheese and yoghurt, along with Dutch Speculoos spread and a tin of caramel waffles. English ginger jam of course.

I had to add that German staple -store bought hard-boiled eggs in bright colours - separately, as I forgot them.

So cute! I would love to visit Germany someday!

 

[jay-jay]

I could be totally wrong, but I thought the point about the jeans was that if OP's version is that the duvet was on the bed and one of the Policeman moved it off the bed, then the jeans would have been slightly 'under' the duvet and not 'slightly' on top. Unless of course the policeman also moved the jeans, the duvet and everything else!

You're not wrong, you've got that absolutely spot on!

.. add to that, now, that we have now been shown the trail of blood on the carpet which then trailed onto the duvet on the floor, and which the jeans were on top of and that absolutely proves that the crime scene wasn't tampered with, like OP is trying to say it was! It also proves that the fan couldn't possibly have been in the place where OP says it was (i.e. where the duvet is on the floor .. and the fan doesn't appear to have been able to stretch that far anyway, because neither the extension lead or the lead on the fan is long enough to be able to place it in that position).

 

[asanque]

post #429. thread over the weekend


According to phone logs, the 2nd set of bangs occurred shortly before 3:15:51a.m., as that is the time Dr. Stipp finally got through to estate security (after hearing 2nd set of bangs).

Before calling Stander and Netcare, OP put on his legs & pried the panels out of the toilet door.

OP called Stander at 3:19:03. That call lasted 24 seconds.

OP called Netcare at 3:20:05. That call lasted 66 seconds.

OP testified that he then went downstairs to unlock the front door, returned upstairs to carry Reeva downstairs.

3:21:33 outgoing call to Baba (estate security) lasted 9 seconds, during which OP did not speak. Baba thought he heard OP crying. That call was likely made by mistake.

3:22:05 Baba pulled up in front of OP's house, called OP. OP said "everything is fine" and hung up.

Shortly after, Baba said that Stander and his daughter pulled up in front of OP's house.

Stander, Stander's daughter Clarice, Baba, and another security guard raced to OP's front door. They saw OP on the landing of the stairs holding Reeva, and then saw OP carry Reeva down the stairs.



........

Thank you.

I am troubled by this as someone who believes OP is guilty of murder.

Based on the prosecution's witnesses, the fatal gunshots were at approximately 3:15 (when the screaming stopped).

OP made 3 calls (Stander, Netcare, Baba) and received 1 call between 3:19 a.m. to 3:22 a.m.

If Baba came into the house at 3:26 a.m. that doesn't leave much time for OP to break down the toilet door.

I am discounting the running back and forth to scream for help and to put on his prosthetics.

Given the above events, even if we assume he was already on prosthetics, he had only a few minutes on either side of the phone calls to break down the door, open it and retrieve Reeva.

Its still possible, but timeframe is extremely tight.

Edit: I'd have to hypothesise that OP already had the cricket bat on him and had already tried to break down the door (that would save time and may also explain the bangs that woke the Stipps)

 

[kaos]

Are there steps taken to ensure he's got somebody around him at all times? I think today was so devastating to his case that he may try to harm himself.

Before anybody thinks wrong of what I've posted - I really don't wish that for either himself, his or Reeva's family.

 

[aa9511]

The bit i dont get is the MOMENT where he thought he had shot Reeva and it not being an intruder. By his test after the shots and running back to the bedroom he still thought it MAY be the intruder coz he said he came back to look for Reeva in the dark. No. 1, surely you would call out and say something like "Reeva are you ok?" On not hearing anything, check around. Cant find her in the place you told her to get down. Ok check balcony...fine. She's not there. Panic sets in surely, you rush downstairs to check if she was there. (Now lets take a step back....balcony door should be open right?) I can see the sense of him having the gun with him still, so thats fine.
But it falls apart here.
If OP is really concerned about Reeva, forget about the legs, you go looking for her, gun possibly still in hand, cant find her. Only THEN when he returns to the bedroom is when he would think he may of made a mistake...surely. Thats when the legs get put on. Not before.
IMV when he fired the shots, he knew it was her immediately. He came back shouted on the balcony for help, put his legs on and then tried to smash the door down.
He's just stitched himself up. That would of made more sense if he just told the truth and said that after he fired he knew straight away it was Reeva and not the crap he's coming up with about going back to look for her. Idiot!

I would think that the first thing he would do is make sure Reeva is awake? He "covered" for that by saying oh, Reeva was still awake when I woke up and she said "can't sleep, Baba." THAT IS WHY HE HAD TO PUT INTO HIS STORY THAT REEVA WAS STILL AWAKE.Also to make his story more believable that she got up to go to the bathroom.

B/c if she was still sleeping, it wouldn't matter if he whispered to her "get down, call police," etc., b/c she would not know what was going on b/c she would be asleep.

Any way one looks at it, his story makes ZERO sense.

The first thing he would have done if this was a real burglar situation, is first talk to Reeva and double-check with her that "did you hear that sound?" I thought Nel made a great point with that on Friday. There would have been some kind of talk with Reeva, especially since she was already awake, per his story. And on top of that, I think he is too much of a wimp to just go charging up to the burglar w/o getting Reeva involved. JMO. He would have definately asked her if she heard that sound or not and what she thought it sounded like, could it be a burglar?

JMO.

 

[shane13]

Are there steps taken to ensure he's got somebody around him at all times? I think today was so devastating to his case that he may try to harm himself.

Before anybody thinks wrong of what I've posted - I really don't wish that for either himself, his or Reeva's family.

Always possible, but doubtful from all I've read.
After arrest he allegedly told cops, he always wins or survives.

A year ago, some of us pondered his fleeing SA. Afterall he is a runner.

I posted earlier that even if found guilty, he will likely have half a decade out on bail as Appeals work their way up.

 

[molly333]

Are there steps taken to ensure he's got somebody around him at all times? I think today was so devastating to his case that he may try to harm himself.

Before anybody thinks wrong of what I've posted - I really don't wish that for either himself, his or Reeva's family.

The whole things is so sad. One minute they are two accomplished young people on top of the world with unlimited potential.

The next minute--what happened? Everything is gone.

 

[sorrell skye]

Has anyone else noticed the incredulous looks on Captain Mangena's face during some parts of OP's testimony?

I find it fascinating to observe members of both the PT and the DT as OP testifies.