Trial Discussion Thread #26 - 14.04.15, Day 23

[liesbeth]

Has it been confirmed that the card is in Reeva's handwriting? If not, how can it be presented as evidence that she loved him?

 

[james83]

Oscar should have stuck to his original narrative and been clear about it, he heard someone in the bathroom and fired the gun, all this accident involuntary nonsense is making thing's even worse for him.

 

[Really?]

Ah yes, but you ignore the context.

Firstly, RS had already mentioned in a text message that he planned to reveal her feelings for him (very soon). She was stringing it out, waiting for the opportune moment. Making him wait. That isn't the way an abused partner would do it. Rather she was in complete control of how and when she wanted to reveal this. It was not some sort of knee jerk reaction uttered out of a desire merely to placate him.

Secondly, this was clearly and unambiguously a declaration of her love for him. In speaking of the "right moment," she was telling him she had fallen in love with him. Had she just said, "I love you," you wouldn't necessarily know for sure, you're right. But what can she mean by "the right moment", other than the right moment in their relationship with one another. If she had been planning to leave him, then t it was utterly the wrong moment in their relationship to say she loved him.

Thirdly, I have no doubt whatsover that these two people were very much in love with each other.

Sorry....I have to disagree here in that there was soooo much love...loving relationship, heck....they both were busy people..this was a lustful relationship.....loving in a sexual way...hey...that I'll agree with...maybe making love.....speeking of which.....I would have like Nel to have OP explain how it was that Reeva died "knowing she was loved".

 

[minor4th]

I think why a lot of people are having trouble with your posts on this subject is, you insist on using the word "relationship" as in "loving relationship".

There is no doubt that OP and RS were in a relationship. And there is evidence that RS was loving towards him (card, gift, making dinner). But there is no evidence that OP was loving towards her. And IMO, calling her Angel and texting her *advertiser censored* and OOO isn't an expression of love.

Is a relationship a loving relationship if only one of the parties involved displays their love?

Yes, there is evidence that Oscar was loving towards her as well.

 

[Viper]

Please excuse my ignorance but what does BIB stand for?

Bit in bold, UK speak. BBM is bolded by me. They both refer to putting certain words or sentences of the post that you are replying to in bold; meaning you are just discussing a portion of the post that you are replying to. Look above at your question, I bolded part of it.

 

[Paysee]

BIB. No. I don't care if he had to run down to the kitchen and scribble a heart on a bar napkin. He had to have made some effort to memorialize his love and affection for Reeva on that day of hearts. Otherwise he is just an *advertiser censored******* and had no feeling of love, or even romance. This is Girlfriend Boyfriend 101. Very simple material to understand.

Especially after she had warned him that she was going to declare her feelings on V day.

I am not surprised at all if they had an argument that night.

I am a calm sort of woman, but I would have been upset too if my BF had no flowers/ gift/ card/ dinner for me, after I did all I could to show my love for him.

 

[Really?]

This is turning into a case-within-a-case!

omg...:websleuther:.....of course the DT could post here to make up answers possible arguments.....I dunno....lol

 

[aoibhinn]

Has it been confirmed that the card is in Reeva's handwriting? If not, how can it be presented as evidence that she loved him?

I wouldn't read too much into it. I'm sure she sent plenty more to friends, family etc. I'm sure she loved many people and they loved her right back. I wonder how many valentines OP got (besides that single one)?

 

[benn25]

Even when he was reluctantly forced to admit he couldn't know if 'no woman screamed that night' (because he was, um, deafened by the gun shots) he still tried to insist no one but him screamed! And don't forget he didn't have his finger on the trigger of the gun which magically discharged itself.

Because the guy is self-absorbed. He cant see past his nose. 27 and doesnt understand the theory of someone else's perception. All he can see is his own reflection in the mirror. He even struggled to even contemplate that he treated Reeva badly by her own account in the email. Just truly unbelievable.

The gun thing i just dont get. He's a gun enthusiast. He would know that it cant discharge off its own accord. Just made himself look extremely foolish. Beyond belief really.

 

[Paysee]

Doesn't have to be a "Valentines" (or any "occasion" card). Just look for a blank card with an appropriate image. Look at the art repro and photographic sections.

Or make your own. You can easily download images from the net and print them out.

A handmade card is also more meaningful, IMO.

 

[James50]

Lets move this on a touch, so she was waiting for valentine's day to tell him she loved him, do you think therefore Oscars claim that "they agreed not to make a big thing of valentine's day" ring's true?, or was she maybe expecting him to make a big deal of there first valentine's day?, consider Reeva's tweet's from the 13th feb 2013

How I interpreted it was not that she didn't want Valentine's day to be special, but that they didn't want to go out and spend a lot of money wining and dining etc. So they ate in. In other words, they didn't want it to be an ostentatious affair.
special

She was not ostentatious by nature. She didn't go along with all the trappings of the rich and successful. She wanted a simple affair. She said Valentine's Day was all about love (i.e. not ostentation), and indeed she did keep it simple, yet very special to her.

Morever her love was so strong for him that she couldn't contain it. Even if by not making V Day a big deal she HAD understood not to talk about her love for him, there was no way she would have been able to keep that agreement as she loved him just too much.

 

[Really?]

Relationship = 2 people. You agree?

Reeva bought a gift for OP, with a card saying I love you, and cooked dinner for her. She is loving towards him.

What did OP do for her to show his loving?

he went upstairs........and.......

 

[minor4th]

Thank you

Any others you feel are relevant?

As far as direct witnesses - I'd say just other neighbors and other ear witnesses. Don't exactly know who those would be. I think the defense actually established a lot of their case during the state's case - with cross examination of witnesses and admission of phone data and so forth.

Aside from that, I think we'll hear audio tests and some things like that. Don't really know what else there could be.

 

[Paysee]

Yes, there is evidence that Oscar was loving towards her as well.

What?

 

[Really?]

Nel Stated that there was ONE colleague with ONE "other legal matter", but that the adjournment was being sought mainly due to more personal plans.

I put it to you... vacation plans etc.

Really... this is a Murder Trial. Nel can manage without one of his assistants. I hope the Judge tells them to "suck it up" in regards their personal plan disruptions and get on with it.

The trial is NOT meant to be part of the punishment and mental torture, especially since the defendant is INNOCENT until the verdict is reached, and may well remain innocent even then.

"I'm not sure"....but I thought it had to do with a different case....someone who may be in prison about to be released?

 

[Paysee]

he went upstairs........and.......

....watched *advertiser censored*.

 

[Britlaws]

Oscar should have stuck to his original narrative and been clear about it, he heard someone in the bathroom and fired the gun, all this accident involuntary nonsense is making thing's even worse for him.

It will be interesting to see just when the defence confirms which defence it is relying on, putative self defence or what we in the UK call automatism. Automatism is rarely used here as it's very difficult to establish but if successful, the accused gets acquitted and goes free!! The fact that OP pumped 4 bullets and then recalls minutiae of detail regarding the events preceding and subsequent to the shooting would seem to be at odds with claiming automatism, but one never knows!

I would think that Roux has had a long old chat to OP this evening!!

 

[Nausicaa]

It's not. An attorney's job is to advocate.

In this case, however, I am not advocating for or against either side. Both the defense and prosecution have had their good and bad moments. Oscar's a crappy witness - I totally agree with that.

My comments about evidence were simply an explanation of the law and how it is applied - no advocacy on my part. Although there are many advocates on this forum who are advocating against Oscar and unwilling to concede even a millimeter on anything that could possibly benefit his case.

I fully appreciate your contributions when you have used your professional knowledge to inform us correctly about the law and how it is applied. But you have also made subjective evaluations to which your professional status is irrelevant.
1.

Oscar testified he loved Reeva. He is the only one who can say whether he did or did not.

The testimony of a man on trial for murder as to his own sentiments is not invariably veracious. Correct me if I err. And Oscar's actions are part of the evidence too. And one of those actions was to shoot a human being through a closed door at the very least without observing his elementary duty of care to check the person was not Reeva.

2.

Words mean what they say unless there's other evidence to suggest that the words don't mean what they say.

Of all words known to man, the words "I love you" must be the words most susceptible not to correspond to reality, as you well know.
In any event, they declare her sentiments, not his.
And whether or not he loved her, he shot her, either deliberately or - at best - by a grossly indefensible error.

This trial is about whether there is just enough doubt about the more credible "deliberately" construction for him not to be certainly a murderer. It has nothing to do with a man deeply in love who made a tragic but understandable mistake.

 

[Gryffindor]

As far as direct witnesses - I'd say just other neighbors and other ear witnesses. Don't exactly know who those would be. I think the defense actually established a lot of their case during the state's case - with cross examination of witnesses and admission of phone data and so forth.

Aside from that, I think we'll hear audio tests and some things like that. Don't really know what else there could be.

Thanks for that.

Charges, thus far, what do you consider? CH? SS? Or other?

 

[DebinGA]

OP killed Reeva on Feb. 14, and her Tropika Island show was scheduled for Feb. 16. She appeared in Season 5, so it must have been fairly popular. Yet, have we heard any indication that OP was interested in the show, beyond his accusatory msg about her possible drug use while filming it?