Trial Discussion Thread #29

[TipDog]

That is not evidence that OP doesn't follow the rules.

http://espn.go.com/olympics/trackandfield/story/_/id/8991348/oscar-pistorius-violated-basic-firearms-rules-experts-say

In particular:

"Pistorius took such a competency test for his 9 mm pistol and passed it, according to the South African Police Service's National Firearms Center. Pistorius' license for the 9 mm pistol was issued in September 2010. The Olympic athlete and Paralympic medalist should have known that firing blindly, instead of at a clearly identified target, violates basic gun-handling rules, firearms and legal experts said."

 

[anagrammy]

That might be something in SA law, but I don't think it is pre-meditated murder of Reeva.

So do you think it is a premediatated murder of whoever is moving behind the door?

Because that's still life.

 

[Emz73]

I don't know - maybe? What SA crim law professor and at what point did he say that OP definitely changed his defense?

http://criminallawza.net/ 13 April pistoruis's new defence?

 

[soozieqtips]

I agree with you that there's an issue about whether it was reasonable to shoot through a closed door, even if he really thought there was an armed intruder about to attack him - irrelevant that it was locked because Oscar didn't know that when he shot his gun.

BBM - He heard it slam though. Nel asked if it must have been slammed and locked at the same time. Nel got someone to lock the toilet door (in court) and it wasn't quiet. As OP was already charging down the passageway and heard the door slam, how come he never heard it lock? He would have been getting closer as it locked, and he wasn't yet deafened by his own gun shots.

 

[james83]

Please Note Van Der Merwe said she heard shot's around 3am, not at 3am.

 

[liesbeth]

After the 4 sounds she heard complete silence, after that she heard Oscar crying very loudly, the total silence she heard after the 4 sound's suggest's she must have have heard the 2nd set of sound's.

Her husband told her it was Oscar crying like a woman. The Afrikaans for that is "huil soos 'n vrou" which can be a bit of an insult. I think the English equivalent would be to say that a man was crying like a girl.

 

[minor4th]

Then what was OP doing for 19 minutes before the first phone call he made?

I don't know? What do you think he was doing?

The time of the first sounds is not exact, as witnesses have given different times. Merwe says around 3:00, Stipp says shortly after 3:00 and Mrs Stipp says 2:58 - 2:59. Oscar says it would have been a bit later, but that's only based on him trying to recreate it - he didn't look at a clock or make note of the time.

The time of the second sounds is fixed at 3:16 - 3:17 according to the phone calls to security and witness testimony that all corroborates this time frame.

So we've got evidence that there was something in the range of 4 - 20 minutes between the shots and cricket bat hitting the door.

 

[Mr Ron]

She was fairly non specific stating only that it was "around 03.00".

She was unsure that the sounds she heard were in fact gunshots. She finally termed them 'thud-shots' but only after pressing (She was extremely nervous and highly strung, finding it difficult to get her words out). She said the shots came quickly, the one after the other, and that there were definitely 4. She also said this was around when her husband woke up and he told her they were gunshots.

I found her to be honest, but incredibly vague. She seemed very certain it was a woman's voice she heard during the possible argument heard intermittently between 2am and 3am, but couldn't identify the source. She also managed to mistake Oscar's crying (once the ambulance had arrived) for that of a woman. I think this speaks towards her credibility in this regard.

BIB - I should have also added that this speaks towards Oscar sounding like a woman when in distress.

 

[minor4th]

http://criminallawza.net/ 13 April pistoruis's new defence?

Right, so this was before Nel had finished his cross examination and before Roux had done his redirect.

That's why I said that it seemed like his defense was changing at first, but it was subsequently clarified that it wasn't.

So, no, I'm not disagreeing with a SA professor

 

[liesbeth]

So do you think it is a premediatated murder of whoever is moving behind the door?

Because that's still life.

I think that for the state to prove premeditated murder it must prove some form of planning, but more importantly, they must prove that their version is the only reasonable version that explains the events.

 

[minor4th]

So do you think it is a premediatated murder of whoever is moving behind the door?

Because that's still life.

No I don't think it's premeditated murder of whoever is moving behind the door. I think it's culpable homicide though.

 

[TipDog]

I should have also added that this speaks towards Oscar sounding like a woman when in distress.

To me, he sounds like a man in falsetto, but not like a woman.

 

[anagrammy]

Originally Posted by turaj
"No trained professional here but if I were his "acting coach" or his "shrink" I would tell him to stop leaning forward with his hands in his ears like a very disturbed child and sit up like a man. I know this is not doing anything except making the judge wonder if this guy could even function in society. Also Roux should stop it. I guess they figure it is better than the bucket but if he can't take it...confess and stop the insanity. His story is so unbelievable he can't stand to listen to it himself~~
Good point. Acting like someone holding a live grenade with finger about to pull the pin, right in front of the judge, doesn't seem like the wisest way to convince her to let him go free."

OP did not want to be shown on TV while testifying even though he was on camera for days previously, even shown vomiting. And while in the dock, during the most difficult parts of the trial, and during some compelling testimony against his version, again he becomes emotional or hides his facial expression in some way.

I think he has been coached to prevent the cameras from seeing his body language since he is lying. He has seen, or been told, how body language worked against many other criminals, including Jody Arias and criminals give away their guilt with body language constantly.

That's the only reasonable explanation for why Vomiting Oz was not vomiting instantly when he saw the gore that he wrought in that tiny bathroom. He DID see it, and close up, flushing the toilet. Maybe that's why he flushed it-- that he vomited?

And, of course, he can't say that.

 

[minor4th]

I think that for the state to prove premeditated murder it must prove some form of planning, but more importantly, they must prove that their version is the only reasonable version that explains the events.

Exactly right IMO

 

[Hatfield]

This is the closest case that I know of to what OP did. The pharmacist in this case got life in prison because he went too far when he shot the robber multiple times as he was posing no threat.

"At the trial, prosecutors argued that Ersland crossed into the wrong when he shot the unarmed and unconscious Parker five more times. "

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/43710936/...acist-sentenced-life-killing-would-be-robber/

 

[DebinGA]

If that is the case, there wouldn't be circumstantial evidence because the defendant can just make up a story that doesn't make sense.

OP did just that last week when he claimed he found Reeva sitting on the floor, head on her shoulder, and magazine rack knocked out of the way. Nel even got Dixon to agree that couldn't possibly be true..

 

[Murphys_Law]

Unless I missed it when OP was being cross examined, why do you think the PT never introduced the jeans that were found on the ground outside of the bathroom window?

IMO It was because the jeans, like the bedroom door and a bunch of other stuff, were outside of the scope of the State's primary focus and they were only going to use those things if OP or someone else opened a door to them. Nel was glued to: There was an argument (witness testimony), OP murdered Reeva (OPs confession, Stipp seeing OP walking after screams and shots), and OP carried Reeva downstairs (Baba, Standers); those are the only truths about the events that night that are important to the State, as I see it.

If one puts the post mortem, ballistic, blood staining evidence aside, most of the remaining physical evidence was introduced into the record very early in the trial by way of photos with no narrative.

Since the photos were introduced into the court record as evidence, it is now up to the defence to respond to the evidence or ignore at their own peril.

The brilliance of Gerrie Nel's method, is that he neither gives anything away nor does he ever get boxed in with a flawed/under developed narrative. This method of keeping his cards pinned to his chest makes it extremely difficult for his opponents to mount an effective line of attack because they do not know what they should be countering.

The puzzling case of the jeans beneath the toilette window, the curious pellet shots through the bedroom door, combined with the intriguing pellet-like bruises/wounds con Reeva's back, and the inexplicable damage to OP's legs are irreconcilable with OP's version (any/all of them) of that evening. These plot holes have not escaped the eyes of many here at WS, and they certainly have not escaped the eyes of My Lady.

Should the defence (or the prosecution in closing) not offer up an reasonable explanation for these discordant bits of evidence, then it is within the judge's and accessors' purview to inquire directly.

 

[Mr Ron]

More evidence that it was the gunshots first heard at around 3:00 and then heard Oscar crying out

Sorry, I think this bit needs to be clarified. From listening to her evidence it seems that her hearing Oscar crying out was after "a commotion" outside his house. This is when people started to arrive in cars etc. She actually testified to hearing none of the screaming at all. Roux explained to her that this was because the Pistorius bedroom is on the opposite side of the house from where she was.

 

[james83]

I don't know? What do you think he was doing?

The time of the first sounds is not exact, as witnesses have given different times. Merwe says around 3:00, Stipp says shortly after 3:00 and Mrs Stipp says 2:58 - 2:59. Oscar says it would have been a bit later, but that's only based on him trying to recreate it - he didn't look at a clock or make note of the time.

The time of the second sounds is fixed at 3:16 - 3:17 according to the phone calls to security and witness testimony that all corroborates this time frame.

So we've got evidence that there was something in the range of 4 - 20 minutes between the shots and cricket bat hitting the door.

Surely van der merwe must have heard the 2nd sound's due to her saying after the sound's there was complete silence?, from what i can gather it seem's that she was awoken by the sound's, so wouldn't have heard the screaming that occurred before the 2nd sound's.
If she was woken by the first sound's she would have surely heard the first scream that the Stipp's heard?.

 

[liesbeth]

OP doesn't follow the rules, made evident by the fact that he shot at an unidentified target through a locked door. I can only imagine the headache he has to be to Roux. But that's why he makes the big bucks.

But not even for double those bucks would I want to be in Roux's shoes right now.