Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[jilly]

Me too. It was such a great athlete and ambassador for his sport. At the beginning I had hoped this was all some tragic accident but as more and more evidence has become available I have found I cannot believe his story.
In particular that Reeva did not scream after the first bullet. All earwitnesses report there were screams. I think he killed her in one of his (well documented) rages. It does seem that he can get 'out of control' very quickly. Unless he confesses we will never know what happened.

Technically the charge of premeditated murder is correct IMO. He could at any time have stopped shooting. He chose to continue, knowing he would likely kill someone, known or unknown. However, somehow, I think he will probably get Culpable Homicide with a short sentence which seems so unfair to Reeva.

I hope that he will change his plea when the evidence is put before him but now, I think, unlikely as I think he has come to believe his story. He is supposed to be going to testify. I think Nel will break his alibi and he will be seen to be a liar, trying to protect his own skin. I feel sure his family must also know/have guessed the truth and I struggle with the fact that he is supposed to be very religious and yet can conduct this charade for so long and with total disrespect for the lover he killed.

I would bet on it. This rage of his didn't happen overnite. They know him like the back of their hand.

 

[JuneBug67]

Ahh grief, I managed 2 lines and quit. I will add the pic is good, think it's the first time I've seen a clear picture of his stumps.

Too bad you quit. . It was kind of entertaining in an odd way. Gramatically sound but utterly puerile. Fandom is weird. And it's not like Oscar is a hockey player or anything. Ha ha! (Sorry. Canadian.)

 

[Carol70]

Just wanted to comment on the window bars.....it may be that owners in that complex are not allowed to put up bars. I know that with any condo or housing complex here, you have a strata council and rules are very strict about not making any changes to the appearance of the exterior of the building.
His security regarding the propped ladder is questionable for sure. Why was it there? You'd think he'd have that removed.

I just want to mention that he lived in a security estate, not a complex by any means...there is no insurance company in SA that will insure your home if it doesn't have security bars on any window that opens unless it's inaccessible like a second story window and there is no reasonable means to access it. There is a good chance that just because there was a ladder propped against the wall, doesn't mean it granted anyone access to the bathroom window, lol, unless they were unusually tall or it was a hellava long ladder. hopefully there is a pic somewhere of that side of the house that shows the ladder since there were choppers taking ariel shots on the day and it should still be visible if someone got the right angle.

 

[minor4th]

I was just about to start my post with "I understand" and then immediately realized I have Roux syndrome.. :floorlaugh: Ok so let's see how I can phrase this a little better...

Is it possible that Oscar meant there was no security risk? Sure. It's also possible that I am going to marry Leonardo DiCaprio.

Common sense is such an enormous part of trial, and life. We can't live without it and those that do typically don't fare very well.

Honestly put yourself in Oscar's (supposed) shoes... you have just accidentally shot and killed your loved one. You are trying to convince the court that you are screaming and wailing so much that all of the witnesses in the neighborhood think you are a woman. And then within minutes you calmly say "I'm fine" to a security guard who checks on you. Does that make sense at all? He can't have it both ways. He can't be wailing like a woman and he can't "be fine" at the same time.

I do get that you are trying to give OP every change possible, and I respect that. But in your heart of hearts, can you honestly tell us that this is reasonable to you? If your answer is yes, then I will respect that.

I'll say this - when I first heard his account, I did not believe him. When I heard a cricket bat was also used, I thought for sure he was guilty and this was a domestic homicide. When I read numerous reports about him being a hothead an being involved in discharging a gun in a public restaurant, that really clenched it for me.

Despite all of that, when I start watching a trial I try to clear my mind of preconceptions and listen carefully to what the evidence actually shows. I also watch the trial presentation with a view towards the burden of proof - i.e. does this evidence conclusively prove premeditation or does it merely raise it as a possibility along with the possibility of accident?

So far, I believe the evidence has not proven premeditation or even come close.

I sincerely have no idea what happened that night. If you had asked me before the trial started I would have said Oscar is a murderer and this should be an open and shut case. Now, after hearing only a limited amount of evidence, I am seeing that the testimony corroborates Oscar's version as much as it contradicts it and I think the state has overcharged him with premeditated murder.

 

[JuneBug67]

It has not been proven - at best, some alternate possibilities have been discussed, but something being possible (or even probable) is not "beyond a reasonable doubt." You have to completely eliminate Oscar's version as being possible before you approach the requisite burden of proof.

To add to your list, I was not surprised OJ was acquitted because the state did not present their evidence effectively and their primary witnesses were impeached.

Ha. I was going to include OJ originally but decided that was so 1995. But you're absolutely right. The common thread is a state that failed to adequately prove their case, despite heavily lopsided public opinion and general outrage.

 

[lisasalinger]

Well, this is why I say I do not think too much of it one way or the other at the moment - we haven't heard his account, and I'm not sure of the timing of the call in relation to other events.

But in any event - what does it lend to the case either for or against premeditation?

BBM

I can see your point on that.

Although one can perceive him saying "I'm fine" as a way to buy time to put together his story (which I tend to believe is the case), that doesn't directly mean that he had intent to kill her.

Just working thru your point here, I suppose somebody could argue that he was so freaked out by what he did that he wanted to collect himself. Although, logically as a human being, I don't buy that. People don't have to lie to cover up accidents. But then we're right back to Casey Anthony and we all know how well that played out in court :facepalm:

I see what you're saying here. People's reactions after the event should not be a sole basis of conviction.

 

[jilly]

If this was such an impulsive act when he was full of rage, how was he capable of concocting a story that so many believe in the minutes he had later before Dr Stipp arrived?

I'd say he was probably in survival mode. If it was me who had mistaken my spouse for a burglar and killed him, I probably would have shot myself.

 

[shane13]

Did anyone catch--with certainty--just where Mr Baba was when the "Everything is Fine" from Oscar conversation took place?

I originally thought Mr Baba was at the main security gate. But now I think he may have been already outside Oscar's house.

What say you?

 

[jilly]

I don't see why he had to change the side of the bed at all. All he needed to do was to roll over onto his other side. I find the whole changing sides story suspect. I hope Nel tackles him about that.

The DT claim they have photos of OP with strapping to this shoulder. Maybe when he was taken to the police station there was strapping and they took a photo. Roux says that he had it on the previous day too.

In my experience (I suffer from a very painful neck/shoulder syndrome - no sympathy needed LOL) I find it more comfortable to actually sleep on that side but perhaps I am a little odd. We need a physiotherapist to explain the situation.

Exactly!

And if his shoulder was so sore, how'd he manage to lug those 2 fans in together. It appears he only made one trip - PLUS he's on his stumps where he doesn't have great balance or mobility.
And speaking of those fans, why didn't he just get a portable air conditioner in his bedroom instead of going through that procedure every nite.

 

[lisasalinger]

I'll say this - when I first heard his account, I did not believe him. When I heard a cricket bat was also used, I thought for sure he was guilty and this was a domestic homicide. When I read numerous reports about him being a hothead an being involved in discharging a gun in a public restaurant, that really clenched it for me.

Despite all of that, when I start watching a trial I try to clear my mind of preconceptions and listen carefully to what the evidence actually shows. I also watch the trial presentation with a view towards the burden of proof - i.e. does this evidence conclusively prove premeditation or does it merely raise it as a possibility along with the possibility of accident?

So far, I believe the evidence has not proven premeditation or even come close.

I sincerely have no idea what happened that night. If you had asked me before the trial started I would have said Oscar is a murderer and this should be an open and shut case. Now, after hearing only a limited amount of evidence, I am seeing that the testimony corroborates Oscar's version as much as it contradicts it and I think the state has overcharged him with premeditated murder.

The ballistics and medical examination will no doubt be huge. If they can prove that the head wound came last and he shot her 2 times prior to that, he has a serious problem. Then the female screams are really important. You have a victim who has been shot twice, is reportedly screaming, and he proceeds to shoot her in the head. Now that is intent. But we'll just have to wait and see what they have.

One other unrelated question, has it been reported what was found inside of Reeva's overnight bag that was next to the bed? This ties in to what she was wearing. If she was wearing street clothes and her pajamas were still in her bag, that will be interesting.

 

[Patagonia]

The comments do not *show* anything because they are rumor and have not been verified. I thought it was against TOS to post comment sections for this very reason. For all we know, it could be an OP PR campaign of character assassination.

I don't think these comments help the Defense's case at all! If anything, they suggest that Oscar was far from ''deeply in love'' with Reeva (if there is any truth to them), which is something he clearly stated in his Affidavit! I think it will be a hard blow to his defense if it comes to light that he lied in it. And I do think that will happen..

But I do agree that those comments are disgusting and that the people behind them spoke a lot more of themselves, than of Reeva, by posting such vile, horrid and inhuman comments.

Nevertheless, I thought they were worth posting here as they add another angle and certain possibilities that are perhaps worth exploring (about Oscar not being the one in love, but the one cheating, and more importantly that he lied about the whole state of their relationship. Which will then undermine even more his credibility over the entire 'intruder' fairytale, imo.)

But I do apologize if my posting of these sickening comments offended anyone, I agree that one needs to have a strong stomach for reading those.

 

[minor4th]

The ballistics and medical examination will no doubt be huge. If they can prove that the head wound came last and he shot her 2 times prior to that, he has a serious problem. Then the female screams are really important. You have a victim who has been shot twice, is reportedly screaming, and he proceeds to shoot her in the head. Now that is intent. But we'll just have to wait and see what they have.

One other unrelated question, has it been reported what was found inside of Reeva's overnight bag that was next to the bed? This ties in to what she was wearing. If she was wearing street clothes and her pajamas were still in her bag, that will be interesting.

I have not seen anything reported about what was in her overnight bag. Either way, I don't think it's unusual that she would be sleeping in a t-shirt and yoga shorts.

I have no idea how it could be proved the order of the shots, but I don't really see how it matters either way. If he shot her with 4 shots in quick succession, it is reasonable to believe she had no opportunity to scream. And if she did scream, it is also reasonable to believe that he didn't hear it over the gunshots.

 

[jilly]

And carry Reeva down the stairs, don't forget.

Excellent point!

 

[minor4th]

I don't think these comments help the Defense's case at all! If anything, they suggest that Oscar was far from ''deeply in love'' with Reeva (if there is any truth to them), which is something he clearly stated in his Affidavit! I think it will be a hard blow to his defense if it comes to light that he lied in it. And I do think that will happen..

But I do agree that those comments are disgusting and that the people behind them spoke a lot more of themselves, than of Reeva, by posting such vile, horrid and inhuman comments.

Nevertheless, I thought they were worth posting here as they add another angle and certain possibilities that are perhaps worth exploring (about Oscar not being the one in love, but the one cheating, and more importantly that he lied about the whole state of their relationship. Which will then undermine even more his credibility over the entire 'intruder' fairytale, imo.)

But I do apologize if my posting of these sickening comments offended anyone, I agree that one needs to have a strong stomach for reading those.

I agree that if there's indication that there was ongoing conflict in the relationship and that he had recently broken up with her, then that contradicts his statement that they were very happy and deeply in love.

 

[JuneBug67]

BBM

I can see your point on that.

Although one can perceive him saying "I'm fine" as a way to buy time to put together his story (which I tend to believe is the case), that doesn't directly mean that he had intent to kill her.

Just working thru your point here, I suppose somebody could argue that he was so freaked out by what he did that he wanted to collect himself. Although, logically as a human being, I don't buy that. People don't have to lie to cover up accidents. But then we're right back to Casey Anthony and we all know how well that played out in court :facepalm:

I see what you're saying here. People's reactions after the event should not be a sole basis of conviction.

After lots of thought I've decided that really all that can be firmly concluded from his words is that he did not want or need assistance from that particular source. He had a point in a way. He didn't need security guards. He needed a doctor, and legal advice.

 

[minor4th]

After lots of thought I've decided that really all that can be firmly concluded from his words is that he did not want or need assistance from that particular source. He had a point in a way. He didn't need security guards. He needed a doctor, and legal advice.

That is what it sounds like to me, although I'm still unsure about the call in relation to other calls and events.

But he was speaking to a security officer, and he did not need security at that point - hence, "Security, everything is fine," meaning there is no security issue that requires their response.

 

[Carol70]

I believe OP used a 9mm Parabellum pistol to shoot Reeva. I have no knowledge of guns but does anyone here know someone or has shot one themselves?? Would be interesting to know how this gun fires, would it be easy to shot off rounds quickly or do you have to *advertiser censored* it each time ( haha, sorry for sounding ignorant but I am about these matters)...are they easy guns to shoot?

 

[Interested Bystander]

That is what it sounds like to me, although I'm still unsure about the call in relation to other calls and events.

But he was speaking to a security officer, and he did not need security at that point - hence, "Security, everything is fine," meaning there is no security issue that requires their response.

I would feel happier, given he had not called an ambulance or the police, if he had said please call the police and an ambulance. By not doing so, if Reeva was still alive, he will have possibly contributed to her death by not providing medical assistance. To knowingly not provide help to an injured person is illegal in the UK. Is it not the same in SA?

 

[jilly]

Going to finally jump in here but thought it best to first say "hello" and that I've been reading these posts from the 1st day. I haven't posted much because by the time I usually catch up, someone else has already pointed out what I was going to say.

Welcome! What are your thoughts on whether Oscar's guilty or innocent? What jumps out at you the most?

 

[lisasalinger]

I have not seen anything reported about what was in her overnight bag. Either way, I don't think it's unusual that she would be sleeping in a t-shirt and yoga shorts.

I have no idea how it could be proved the order of the shots, but I don't really see how it matters either way. If he shot her with 4 shots in quick succession, it is reasonable to believe she had no opportunity to scream. And if she did scream, it is also reasonable to believe that he didn't hear it over the gunshots.

And it brings us right back to the 4 shots in general. Anybody who is familiar with guns and who is certified to shoot a gun, as Oscar was, understands that 4 gunshots will very likely kill somebody especially in a small confined space. That alone is definitely indication of intent to kill. So we still need to focus on him "knowing" that it was Reeva in the bathroom. They need to nail down that proof.

The potential witnesses to the right of Oscar (from Stipp's vantage point) that had their lights on that night are huge. I wonder if perhaps they may have seen Oscar & Reeva that night. They would overlook his bedroom balcony, right? I really hope they testify and have something substantive that we can dig in to.

I do wish that both Nel and Roux were more articulate in their questions and arguments. They seem to ramble about and I find myself confused or just totally zoning out when they speak. This case is so complex that it would be a thousand times more helpful to have clear, well-articulated arguments, as well as exhibits that we could view. They really need to be more accommodating to us :giggle: