Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[Trooper]

From Dr Stipps testimony he left me with the distinct flavour that if it had been left up to Standar and Oscar this whole repulsive and murderous event would never, ever have reached the light of day.

 

[lisasalinger]

This is one reason why I'm thinking Oscar's version is plausible. It may seem silly but Oscar doesn't seem to think like most people. Perhaps he has some sort of paranoid disorder like a personality disorder. Several stories suggest that every time he hears a noise or thinks he hears a noise he goes into a state of fearful hysteria and thinks there's an intruder in his home. Has he ever been robbed? Perhaps he has a sort of PTSD. Idk. Maybe his paranoia stretched over into his relationships, thus the fits of anger and yelling.

oh dear god, please don't let there be PTSD testimony

#scarredbyjodiarias

 

[lisasalinger]

From Dr Stipps testimony he left me with the distinct flavour that if it had been left up to Standar and Oscar this whole repulsive and murderous event would never, ever have reached the light of day.

Yep, I got that sense from Peter Barber too. He stated that when they were outside Oscar's house, the Standers parked and raced past them and went in to the house. Mrs. Stander went in and Mr. Stander stood in the doorway.

Barber made it clear that he was not able to enter the house because Stander was standing in the doorway. Stander instructed the guards what to do (make phone calls and move cars.)

By the way, did he testify that Mr. Stander's father was also there or did he say his daughter was there? It was very difficult to understand the interpreter.

I want to hear more about this relationship with the Standers. Seems he knows the whole family.

 

[Harmony 2]

Note: This is a work in progress... please add or make corrections...I could not locate a time for the entries marked with ???. I have added minor4th notes denoted with an asterisk


Oscar-Pistorius-Timeline-to-tragedy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...1769/Oscar-Pistorius-Timeline-to-tragedy.html

February 14, 2013

6 p.m.- Reeva entered the complex alone in her Mini Cooper.
Pistorius entered the complex shortly thereafter. He was on his phone.

1:56 a.m.- neighbor Estelle van der Merwe:
“I woke up the morning at 1:56am to sounds of someone talking loudly and fighting,’’ she told the court. “It lasted about an hour.’’

http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...rrifying-screams/story-fnh81gzi-1226845099657

*2:00 a.m. - Werwe heard what sounded like a woman's voice on one side of an argument

2:20 a.m.- Baba stated in court that at 2.20 am everything seemed normal during a security check.

3:00a.m-

Michell Burger, a lecturer at the University of Pretoria who lived 170m away on a neighbouring estate to Pistorius, said she was woken at 3am "from a woman's terrible screams".
She said the woman "yelled for help" and then she heard a man screaming for help three times, before shots were fired.
She said that there was a gap between the first shot and the next three, describing it as "bang (pause), bang bang bang."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-bloodcurdling-screams-followed-by-shots.html

*3:00 - 3:15 a.m. -Stipp was woken up by 3 "shots" and got up and went to balcony to see where it was coming from

*3:00 - 3:17 a.m. - Stipp reports he heard a woman "screaming or yelling" 2 or 3 times

3:15a.m- Dr Stipp made a call at 3.15 am and spoke with Baba for 16 seconds. Stipp reported the shots and asked security to come and see where the shots were coming from.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*Burger and Johnson awoke to the sounds of loud screams they identified as coming from a female

*3:15- 3:16 a.m. - Burger and Johnson report they heard yelling "help, help, help"

3:16 a.m.-

According to Roux, the call Johnson made at 3:16 am on Valentines Day last year to a security company was followed three minutes later by Pistorius's call to his complex's chairperson, Johan Stander.

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/79d46...,-witness-phone-calls-under-scrutiny-20140306

*3:17 a.m. – Stipp heard "2 or 3" additional "shots"

*3:17 a.m. Burger and Johnson heard "3 or 4" sounds they believe to be gunshots

*After 3:17 a.m. - Werwe heard "loud crying" that she initially thought was a woman, but her husband identified the voice as Oscar Pistorius

????-

Baba sent a buggy to Dr Stipp's house, and by then Dr Stipp was standing on the balcony. At that stage Dr Stipp pointed directly at Mr Pistorius's house. Pistorius's house was directly visible from Dr Stipp's house and Baba says the lights in Mr Pistorius's house were on so he immediately drove there.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*3:20 a.m. - Oscar calls Netcare and reports that they advised him to take Reeva to the hospital and not wait for the ambulance

???- Baba spoke to Pistorius on the phone and Pistorius said, "Security, everything is fine".

3:24a.m.-

Roux says that Baba's phone call with Pistorius was 3.24 am- questioning the timings of the conversations.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

???-- Johan Stipp, a doctor who lived near Pistorius was the first to arrive at Pistorius home

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-fifth-day/

???-

Stipp arrived and said Pistorius had his fingers in Steenkamp's mouth in an attempt to revive her breathing but it soon became clear that she was "mortally" wounded.

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/439cc...ried-and-prayed-next-to-Reeva's-body-20140306

???- The estate manager Mr Stander arrived at Mr Pistorius's house with his daughter.

???- Baba didn't enter Pistorius's house because Stander was standing at door. Lights were on in the house. Baba left to call the police and paramedics.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*3:28 a.m. Both Stander and Stipp are at Oscar's house; Stander calls ambulance from Stipp's phone

Other sources:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...rrifying-screams/story-fni0xs63-1226845099657

 

[lisasalinger]

yes Dr. Stipp is the real hero with this.
All who told police what they heard are also to some extent.
(Read the Kitty Genovese story in nYC if you don't know it, as far as how commonly most will not want to get invoved. Murder of Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

Even Mr Baba is a hero for not accepting Oscar's "Everything is fine." He came across as very nervous, but when the time came he confronted Pistorius. We will have to see what Stander will say. He seemed to be cooperating with Oscar in some way, and did not call for help either until Dr. Stipp directed someone to call an ambulance. Only then did Stander tell Baba to call.
In Oscar's defense, maybe he was on his way to take Reeva to the hospital.
As with many things, we must deal with probabilities.

Alas, all the evidence indicates the mostly likely thing, is that w.o. the intervention of Dr. Stipp, as another poster wrote when I queried people to state the lrobable outcomes, we would/might merely have a missing person's thread for Reeva and no body alas.

BBM

I'm not entirely sure on this sequence of events. I just finished listening to yesterday's testimony. I thought I understand it that Barber (Baba or whatever) was outside of Oscar's house when the Standers arrived. They raced past the guards and Mrs. Stander went in to the house, Mr. Stander stood in the doorway either with his dad or his daughter (couldn't understand that). Barber was standing there outside in a bit of shock when he saw Oscar carrying Reeva down the stairs. At this point, Mr. Stander tells Barber to go call police and an ambulance. I don't think Dr. Stipp had arrived just yet. But I could be wrong.

 

[Trooper]

Yep, I got that sense from Peter Barber too. He stated that when they were outside Oscar's house, the Standers parked and raced past them and went in to the house. Mrs. Stander went in and Mr. Stander stood in the doorway.

Barber made it clear that he was not able to enter the house because Stander was standing in the doorway. Stander instructed the guards what to do (make phone calls and move cars.)

By the way, did he testify that Mr. Stander's father was also there or did he say his daughter was there? It was very difficult to understand the interpreter.

I want to hear more about this relationship with the Standers. Seems he knows the whole family.

yes, indeed the impression was cemented by Baba's observations..

I dont know about a father. it was either wife, or daughter or both..

I have often flirted with the idea, seeing the car was started, doors open, etc. .that this happened before the shooting.. in the middle of the argument.. Reeva arrived before Oscar that night to the house. seems to me, if its a single elongated garage, her car would be in front of Oscars. To get out, she has to move his car..

Maybe he told her to get out, she says, move your car then, or he goes down, moves it, comes back upstairs for another scream and shout. .or she goes down stairs and tries to move it, he tells her get away from my car, she goes back up stairs , is confronted with the gun and dives into the toilet area.. I just dont know.. its a real puzzle... Only Standar can resolve it from here.

 

[shane13]

The thing though to remember re Stander is that he was there with his daughter (I believe). and that makes it less likely he would commit a crime (hopefully).

But a crime or immoral act can be perofrmed by an inaction, not just an overt action And not calling for appropriate help until AFTER someone had definitively died, is one possible way to assist someone in their scenario if asked.

 

[Trooper]

the order of arrival at the house is this..

STandar, and Mrs Standar, or Ms Standar

Baba by a whisker.. he actually arrives before Standar but is whizzed past by one STandar, at least, possibly both.

seconds later, enough time for Oscar to finish his walk down the stairs, because this is what Baba was confronted with, then Oscar lays her on the hallway tiles, then commences some sort of half arsed resuscitation procedure, then Stipp arrives to see Oscar with his fingers clenched between Reevas teeth, and his hand on her groin. Muttering and moaning.

Stipp then removes Oscars hands, and commences to ascertain life or death.

 

[lisasalinger]

Note: This is a work in progress... please add or make corrections...I could not locate a time for the entries marked with ???. I have added minor4th notes denoted with an asterisk


Oscar-Pistorius-Timeline-to-tragedy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...1769/Oscar-Pistorius-Timeline-to-tragedy.html

February 14, 2013

6 p.m.- Reeva entered the complex alone in her Mini Cooper.
Pistorius entered the complex shortly thereafter. He was on his phone.

1:56 a.m.- neighbor Estelle van der Merwe:
“I woke up the morning at 1:56am to sounds of someone talking loudly and fighting,’’ she told the court. “It lasted about an hour.’’

http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...rrifying-screams/story-fnh81gzi-1226845099657

*2:00 a.m. - Werwe heard what sounded like a woman's voice on one side of an argument

2:20 a.m.- Baba stated in court that at 2.20 am everything seemed normal during a security check.

3:00a.m-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-bloodcurdling-screams-followed-by-shots.html

*3:00 - 3:15 a.m. -Stipp was woken up by 3 "shots" and got up and went to balcony to see where it was coming from

*3:00 - 3:17 a.m. - Stipp reports he heard a woman "screaming or yelling" 2 or 3 times

3:15a.m- Dr Stipp made a call at 3.15 am and spoke with Baba for 16 seconds. Stipp reported the shots and asked security to come and see where the shots were coming from.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*Burger and Johnson awoke to the sounds of loud screams they identified as coming from a female

*3:15- 3:16 a.m. - Burger and Johnson report they heard yelling "help, help, help"

3:16 a.m.-

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/79d46...,-witness-phone-calls-under-scrutiny-20140306

*3:17 a.m. – Stipp heard "2 or 3" additional "shots"

*3:17 a.m. Burger and Johnson heard "3 or 4" sounds they believe to be gunshots

*After 3:17 a.m. - Werwe heard "loud crying" that she initially thought was a woman, but her husband identified the voice as Oscar Pistorius

????-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*3:20 a.m. - Oscar calls Netcare and reports that they advised him to take Reeva to the hospital and not wait for the ambulance

???- Baba spoke to Pistorius on the phone and Pistorius said, "Security, everything is fine".

3:24a.m.-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

???-- Johan Stipp, a doctor who lived near Pistorius was the first to arrive at Pistorius home

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-fifth-day/

???-

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/439cc...ried-and-prayed-next-to-Reeva's-body-20140306

???- The estate manager Mr Stander arrived at Mr Pistorius's house with his daughter.

???- Baba didn't enter Pistorius's house because Stander was standing at door. Lights were on in the house. Baba left to call the police and paramedics.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*3:28 a.m. Both Stander and Stipp are at Oscar's house; Stander calls ambulance from Stipp's phone

Other sources:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...rrifying-screams/story-fni0xs63-1226845099657

BBM in red

Thanks for doing this!

I really want to get the Stipp calls nailed down. Something is seriously off with them. On the stand, Dr. Stipp seemed very certain that his first calls to security (after the first set of bangs) were unanswered and that he didn't get thru to security until after the second set of shots, so sometime after 3:17am.

Roux told Stipp on Thursday that his call to security was at 3:27am. Which was impossible because Stipp was with Stander at Oscar's by 3:28am calling the ambulance.

Today, Roux told Barber that he spoke with Stipp at 3:15am and reported the shots then. It was a 16 second call.

So which was it?? These lawyers are making me crazy! They're all over the place. :scared:

 

[Trooper]

The thing though to remember re Stander is that he was there with his daughter (I believe). and that makes it less likely he would commit a crime (hopefully).

But a crime or immoral act can be perofrmed by an inaction, not just an overt action And not calling for appropriate help until AFTER someone had definitively died, is one possible way to assist someone in their scenario if asked.

I am prepared to take this into consideration but their livelihood depended on the advertised security of the estate.. their proffessional capabilities were immediately thrown into horrendous doubt, and I think thats a big thing for security operations on housing estates in Pretoria, if not the whole of South Africa.. things sell or dont depending on the value and reliability of security..

Its just a thought..

I can see how they would be tempted to make it ALL GO AWAY.

 

[shane13]

BBM

I'm not entirely sure on this sequence of events. I just finished listening to yesterday's testimony. I thought I understand it that Barber (Baba or whatever) was outside of Oscar's house when the Standers arrived. They raced past the guards and Mrs. Stander went in to the house, Mr. Stander stood in the doorway either with his dad or his daughter (couldn't understand that). Barber was standing there outside in a bit of shock when he saw Oscar carrying Reeva down the stairs. At this point, Mr. Stander tells Barber to go call police and an ambulance. I don't think Dr. Stipp had arrived just yet. But I could be wrong.

Maybe.
But I distinctly recall Dr Stipp testifying that he asked all present, which included the 2 Standers, Oscar, and the 2 Security people if anyone had called an ambulance and all indicated no. And that's when Stander drected Baba to call an ambulance and police. There may be a conflict with Baba's testimony but that is how I recall Dr.Stipp's testimony becuase that part was striking--that no one had called. Now exactly when that was I guess I can't swear to in part because I think the questioning by both sides sometimes is lacking.

 

[lisasalinger]

yes, indeed the impression was cemented by Baba's observations..

I dont know about a father. it was either wife, or daughter or both..

I have often flirted with the idea, seeing the car was started, doors open, etc. .that this happened before the shooting.. in the middle of the argument.. Reeva arrived before Oscar that night to the house. seems to me, if its a single elongated garage, her car would be in front of Oscars. To get out, she has to move his car..

Maybe he told her to get out, she says, move your car then, or he goes down, moves it, comes back upstairs for another scream and shout. .or she goes down stairs and tries to move it, he tells her get away from my car, she goes back up stairs , is confronted with the gun and dives into the toilet area.. I just dont know.. its a real puzzle... Only Standar can resolve it from here.

At what point in testimony did it come up that the car was started and the doors were open? I think I totally missed that. Must have been due to that awesome interpreter today

 

[shane13]

I am prepared to take this into consideration but their livelihood depended on the advertised security of the estate.. their proffessional capabilities were immediately thrown into horrendous doubt, and I think thats a big thing for security operations on housing estates in Pretoria, if not the whole of South Africa.. things sell or dont depending on the value and reliability of security..

Its just a thought..

I can see how they would be tempted to make it ALL GO AWAY.

Sorry it doesn't fly.

first Stander may be breaking many laws and also immorally not helping to save a life.
Secondly it does not affect teh estate's security record!

This was no breakin by an outide intruder. This was the owner of the house killing his guest.

Could happen anywhere. Should not affect their security record.

 

[lisasalinger]

Maybe.
But I distinctly recall Dr Stipp testifying that he asked all present, which included the 2 Staqnders, Oscar, and the 2 Security people if anyone had called an ambulance and all indicated no. And that's when Stander drected Baba to call an ambulance and police. There may be a conflict with Baba's testimony but that is how I recall Dr.Stipp's testimony becuase that part was striking--that no one had called. Now exactly when that was I guess I can't swear to in part because I think the questioning by both sides sometimes is lacking.

BBM

I agree, I remember that from Stipp's testimony too. Maybe Barber is confused about when exactly he was told to call. He did mention he was standing there in shock for a little bit.

This is seriously some of the worst articulation I've ever seen by lawyers. And every time Roux tries to reference reports, he has to pause and can't seem to find what he needs. It feels like they're winging it at times. I'm sure that's not the case but it feels really sloppy.

 

[lisasalinger]

Did you guys also notice that Barber made the comment that once he snapped out of his shock, he wanted to get a look at what Oscar was wearing?

He just made that statement and Nel never followed up on it. So we never heard what Oscar was wearing or why Barber felt it was important to note that. Weird.

 

[shane13]

BBM

I agree, I remember that from Stipp's testimony too. Maybe Barber is confused about when exactly he was told to call. He did mention he was standing there in shock for a little bit.

This is seriously some of the worst articulation I've ever seen by lawyers. And every time Roux tries to reference reports, he has to pause and can't seem to find what he needs. It feels like they're winging it at times. I'm sure that's not the case but it feels really sloppy.

I think several things re Roux. He may mess some things up for various reasons. But some times I get the impression that when he reads something, and it is not be the way he thought it was OR the witness just gave testimony that indicates what he was about to do no longer is helpful to his client, and he gets stuck trying to decide whether he should now drop what he was planning.

To me all this indicates again that he is likely defending a guilty client and his window [perhaps a good metaphor re the killing] is very narrow.

 

[Trooper]

Sorry it doesn't fly.

first Stander may be breaking many laws and also immorally not helping to save a life.
Secondly it does not affect teh estate's security record!

This was no breakin by an outide intruder. This was the owner of the house killing his guest.

Could happen anywhere. Should not affect their security record.

I think Standar understood instantly that it was no break in, it was Oscar shooting Reeva.. What he indicated he wanted was absolutely no press report, nothing, hopefully no police report, it would be handled inhouse.

Maybe some cleaning up to do first, though..

 

[lisasalinger]

I think Standar understood instantly that it was no break in, it was Oscar shooting Reeva.. What he indicated he wanted was absolutely no press report, nothing, hopefully no police report, it would be handled inhouse.

Maybe some cleaning up to do first, though..

I agree with you Trooper that this could very well be the case. I don't think Oscar would ask him to cover up a murder or hide a body, nothing crazy like that, but he certainly may have said there was a horrible accident that happened here tonight and I need it handled as quietly and professionally as possible.

Now that comment of "everything is fine" to Barber makes sense because he was going to handle it in his own way with his own security peeps.

 

[Trooper]

At what point in testimony did it come up that the car was started and the doors were open? I think I totally missed that. Must have been due to that awesome interpreter today

It isnt in Oscars original statements.. no mention of a trip downstairs to start the car, either him or Reeva..

It only came up to my knowledge in witness testimony ... was it Baba's or Stipps.. one of them saw the car doors open and the engine running.

Frankly. I cannot see where Standar has the time to do it unseen.. maybe Ms Standar , who is giving directions as well at the front door.. .


I await Standars stuff.

Oscar , Standar, Ms Standar, Baba , Dr Stipp..5 standing live bodies in the hallway

Reeva Steenkamp. .. 1 dead body prone on the hallway.

 

[lisasalinger]

I agree with you Trooper that this could very well be the case. I don't think Oscar would ask him to cover up a murder or hide a body, nothing crazy like that, but he certainly may have said there was a horrible accident that happened here tonight and I need it handled as quietly and professionally as possible.

Now that comment of "everything is fine" to Barber makes sense because he was going to handle it in his own way with his own security peeps.

And stating the obvious... this would have also given him all the time in the world to tweak a few details at his house to avoid prosecution. Stander wouldn't have had to be involved but I'm sure Stander may have looked the other way on certain things not knowing that they may be nefarious.