Trial Discussion Thread #30

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But hitting a bird or an animal while you are driving is an accident and something which you have very little control over. Shooting at an unidentified person in a toilet cubicle is not an accident, because you make sure you check first to make 100% sure it's not your partner or other family member (and even if it's not, you still need to fire a warning shot, etc, before shooting an unknown person, who may themselves be unarmed or may even be a child). OP had at least two opportunities (according to his version) to identify who the person in the toilet cubicle was, and it's just a complete nonsense that he wouldn't have done that .. and it's just as ridiculous that he would've automatically thought the noise in the bathroom came from something external as opposed to someone who was already in the bedroom/en-suite bathroom with him, especially if you cannot even open the window from the outside anyway.

Two points in reply. First about that poor duck. I saw the duck on the road in front of me. It was too dark out to identify it as a duck, and it was on a major thoroughfare at a beach resort. I thought I was seeing a bird in the road, and that it would fly away as I approached it. It didn't.

My interpretation of what I thought I saw was reasonable. Had I been 100% diligent, though, I could have changed lanes and avoided the duck entirely. There were no other cars on the riad , so that would have been a safe thing to do. I made a mistake in assessing the situation and the duck is dead.

Before anyone goes there, no I am not comparing or equating the death of a duck to Reeva's death. I am saying that it is very human to misjudge a situation and have a bad outcome result from that lapse.

Understand that I don't have emotional investment in this case at all. Until a few weeks ago I had never heard of either OP or Reeva. From what I have learned about OP I am quite sure I would not like him personally, even before consideration of this killing. I don't like guns, I don't like arrogance, I would never tolerate a boyfriend telling me how to behave, and I am very much not a "pleaser, " just for starters.

My dislike doesn't enter into how I look at this case. What's important about assessing OP's personality and temperament is to understand who was there that night. Would I grab a gun first and head for the danger? Absolutely not. Would my hubby? No. But what you or I or my husband would do is irrelevant . The two germaine questions here , imo, are:
1. Is it reasonable to believe that OP acted as he says he did?
2. If his story is true, is what he did reasonable and within the law?

Staying on the this one point only...what happened after the hearing of an intruder or not...

1. OP has a track record of hearing noises at night in his very secure house and assuming intruders.
2. OP relies on guns to make him feel safe.
3. OP feels very confident in his ability to use guns.
4. OP seems to be not a particularly gifted analytical thinker, shall we say.
5. OP is selfish, self-absorbed, cocky, has a sense of entitlement, and has a demonstrable problem with anger management.
6. IMO, whatever feelings OP have towards Reeva, the woman he says he thinks is in his bed is not his wife, not the love of his life, not even his best girlfriend. If you are in a loving marriage you know what I'm saying....I would literally die trying to save my Hubby's life or my son's and my first instinct in an unknown and seemingly dangerous situation would be to protect them first.

OP's not making sure of where Reeva was is entirely in character, as was reaching for the gun , as was running towards the danger, as was screaming in rage when he thought someone had dared violate him and his house.
 
So, does it tell you anything about how long ago Reeva was shot if there was arterial spurt when she was being carried down the stairs?


I really need to find some references, but I think it proves she had at least a faint pulse when he was moving her through the room if the blood spatter pattern indicates pulsatile spurts/spatters. She may have been close to brain dead for a while with enough basal centers still functioning for those last heartbeats... :-(
 

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I really need to find some references, but I think it proves she had at least a faint pulse when he was moving her through the room if the blood spatter pattern indicates pulsatile spurts/spatters. She may have been close to brain dead for a while with enough basal centers still functioning for those last heartbeats... :-(

Thank you for the explanation. No need to go find references
 
Just wondering, could Baba's mobile phone be recorded as a gprs call? Is there any way to trace calls from the mobile in the buggy or just the cell number that received and answered calls via the main security line? Another way that Stander could "help"?

Sorry Val1, I haven't got a clue. I don't even know what a gprs call is.
 
So far,

According to the Book "Blood Dynamics" no heartbeat, no spurt.
Still looking for collapse of vasomotor tone...
 
More from jay-jay's link:
........................................................................................................................................
Pistorius’ coach, Ampie Louw, believes that his obsession with guns is a normal “boy thing” and that his infamous temper quickly blows over. “Oscar is a verbal guy. He gets grumpy when it doesn’t go his way, then he will be verbal, but the next day he will normally say sorry,” he said.
“We went to Imola [in Italy] … Something irritated Oscar and he totally lost it. I got in the car with Oscar next to me … and Oscar touched my leg and said: ‘Sorry coach, I still love you.’ So that’s the type of person he is.”
.........................................................................................................................................

I think "Oscar is a verbal guy" means Oscar habitually screams at people in anger. .Sounds like Reeva was spot on about OP's "tantrums".


.. crikey, I hadn't read much further down that article .. http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscar-finds-new-love/ it also says

Several sources this week spoke of how Pistorius often promised Taylor’s mother he would seek counselling to help him control his temper.

Many who have dealt with Pistorius have spoken of his violent rages.

Also on the witness list is TV producer Quentin van der Bergh, whose legs Pistorius allegedly threatened to break after he began dating Taylor.

Soccer player Mark Batchelor, who allegedly faced similar threats, is also on the list.

.. and ..

Taylor’s mother, Trish, was like a mother to Pistorius, whose mother died of cancer when he was 15 years old. So close was he to the Taylors he regularly stayed with them at their home in northern Joburg. Trish repeatedly tried to persuade Pistorius to go for counselling and said she did not want her daughter to be involved with him if he did not

Now, I realise that ST may have cause to exaggerate somewhat, but I doubt very much that her mother does.
 
To clarify my response I think Oscar has demonstrated that he is a fighter and would not have taken flight. He could have felt he had a better chance armed with his 9mm than he did fleeing on his stumps. If there had been an intruder in the house I don’t find it unusual at all that Oscar would have hunted the intruder down, and shot the hell out of him, even on his stumps or prosthetics, he was going to be in the race not retreating or on the side lives. That is simply who Oscar is.


You cannot be serious about Oscar being a fighter can you?

He put four rounds into a terrified woman who was locked in a toilet.

We will see how much of a fighter he is in prison. Suicide watch for sure.
 
Only because they've followed the case right from the beginning and actually listened to all the testimonies and cross examinations, read all the documents (OP's bail statement, PE, etc), reviewed all the crime scene photos, and put everything together, picked up on all the glaring holes and inconsistencies, and found that the whole thing, altogether, is absolutely ludicrous (to borrow natashya's word for it). People aren't just saying this on a whim because they 'feel it in their waters', they are making an educated 'guess' on it based on everything that has been presented to them.
I only started following this case at the beginning of trial so I don't have the history. The State had me on day one with the screams and I've been waiting ever since for the defence to present something that made sense to me...they've given me a man who screams like a woman; an unworkable time frame; differing accounts within the defence CIC (double taps, screaming like a woman but crying like a man, neighbors who never heard screaming at all); an expert who agrees, mostly, with the State; another expert who contradicts the accused himself; and no evidence that Reeva mattered any great deal to Oscar.

Now mix in Oscar's damning testimony...few straight answers; constant contradictions; corrections of benign minutiae while stating his memory was clouded; refusing to truly accept responsibility for any wrong-doing and becoming very argumentative, nearly hostile, to the opposing attorney. (This is something defendants convicted, who have testified, very often do, ime.) Two things that bothered me greatly were him getting her birthday wrong and being so dogged that she could have gone downstairs. Just two of many, mind you.

People can call me biased or judgmental...I know damn well I don't belong on a jury. ;) But in all honesty, I did come into this not knowing much and really hoping her killing hadn't been deliberate - when someone is murdered by one they love and trust it truly is heartbreaking. I wanted her shooting to be 'accidental' but the only way I can get there, based on what's been presented so far, is by standing on my head, blind-folding myself, putting my fingers in my ears, suspending all logic and rationality, and inventing unrealistic, fanciful scenarios.

If the defence, coming up, give me something logical to work with, I will be glad to revisit my stance. As it stands now, it isn't enough that I simply wish Oscar wasn't guilty of deliberately shooting her, when everything else presented refutes it.

JMO
 
Actually I haven't followed every single day or post or watch all the testimony. But I know when an accused story can be even plausible, OP's is not. If he ever thought Reeva was in bed and there were 1 or more intruders, he had too many other options 1st.

Well yes, you're right of course, it should be stark staring obvious to most right from the off .. but what I can't understand is that if someone has actually followed the case, that they can still protest OP's innocence/unawareness that it was Reeva he was shooting through that door.
 
Crasshoper, did you see that list that you had asked about? I posted the link to that particular post for you on a page or two back.
 
I think the court rejected that argument about not being able to pause. I guess it is a similar or the same kind of gun used by OP

I read that case yesterday and the judge's notations about the gun did peak my interest. Lets start by saying that gun was very different from OPs 9mm; OPs gun can only fire one bullet with each pull of the trigger, just one bullet each time.

The judge noted that the entry wounds to the one man nearest the shooter were spread out quite a bit because the gun was set on fully automatic and the recoil caused the man to fire wildly. Those guns are illegal in most every country that I am aware of; they are police and military issue in some countries though. Note: it is possible to modify a semi automatic handgun to be fully automatic, but OPs gun was not modified to be that way.

Anyway I had first imagined a fully automatic 9mm compact sub machine gun, like the first Uzi models from the '80s drug shoot outs. But a quick research showed that the gun the man used was a 9mm pistol with the capability of firing a single shot with each trigger pull (semi automatic) or a burst of three bullets with a single trigger pull or an option to be fully automatic and fire all of its bullets with a single pull if the trigger, only stopping if the trigger is released. See below:

Quote:
93R: Chambered for the 9×19mm Parabellum as above, but capable of semi-auto, full auto, or three round burst. Weapon was originally equipped with a 13 round magazine and a 20 round magazine, as well as detachable butt stock. The "R" stands for "Raffica", which is Italian for "burst".

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_92
 
OP's gun is a Taurus 9MM Parabellum. The gun in the other case is a z88 9MM Parabellum.
 
I think Shane probably has a good point about not responding as a way of reducing at least some of the apparent foolishness.

I would like to think that I am a firm advocate for free speech and for healthy meaningful debate, but when some arguments appear to require the total suspension of any level of logical scrutiny or common sense, then I am afraid I'm out. It also gets pretty tiresome to have to go over and over the same stuff repeatedly.

:moo:

It's all a matter of opinion, but I think most of us feel exactly the same as you.
 
More from jay-jay's link:
........................................................................................................................................
Pistorius’ coach, Ampie Louw, believes that his obsession with guns is a normal “boy thing” and that his infamous temper quickly blows over. “Oscar is a verbal guy. He gets grumpy when it doesn’t go his way, then he will be verbal, but the next day he will normally say sorry,” he said.
“We went to Imola [in Italy] … Something irritated Oscar and he totally lost it. I got in the car with Oscar next to me … and Oscar touched my leg and said: ‘Sorry coach, I still love you.’ So that’s the type of person he is.”
.........................................................................................................................................

I think "Oscar is a verbal guy" means Oscar habitually screams at people in anger. .Sounds like Reeva was spot on about OP's "tantrums".

Wow. This is telling to me. Sounds like a typical spouse abuser would do. Always apologizes and is sorry after the damage is done.

Its too bad there are not other witnesses that saw much more than just that verbal example the coach saw. The coach saw enough of him to indicate he has a pattern of blowing his top and then sorry soon after.

Where there is smoke there is fire.
 
They both shot multiple times instead of just once.

They both claimed they feared for their lives when there was actually no threat.

BIB. Actually the judge noted that the shooter fired one time, but his gun was fully automatic so it fired multiple bullets with one pull of the trigger.

OP intentionally pulled the trigger four times intentionally trying to fire all four rounds, with a pause after he fired the first bullet.
 
They both shot multiple times instead of just once.

They both claimed they feared for their lives when there was actually no threat.

BIB. IIRC the man had threatened to kill the shooter and then reached in to his pocket. The shooter believed the man was going for a weapon to carry out his threat so the shooter opened fire in putative self defense.

Big differences from OPs fairy tale, really big differences. :smile:
 
Hi Bobbie, I am not far from you and I agree that there is very little interest in this case even amongst my local websleuthers friends. Gave you a little wave yesterday on my way home from a lovely week at Noosa.

I don't know anyone either who is the least bit interested in this story. It is quite annoying because you have no one to discuss it with. The thing is the people I have mentioned it too, all believe he is guilty and should be locked up for life. This absolutely baffles me, how can folk pass such a judgement when they haven't even bothered to read a newspaper article about it.
They would probably conclude that we are a load of oddballs obsessing about something that has nothing to do with us.
They would probably be right.
 
Let's not forget about that strangely random arterial spurt at the top of the stairs, you could be forgiven for thinking he was waiting for her to die(JMO).
 
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