Trial Discussion Thread #30

[Interested Bystander]

Can you imagine the pressure for witnesses to say what the police want them to say when the police are pressuring them to tailor their statements to get a conviction and to provide details that are not really factual?

Do you wonder how Mrs Stipp's statement ended up with a declaration that she saw a person walking in OP's bathroom when she really didn't see that?

I imagine it is the same for both sides. You could see that with poor old Dixon who, in the end, got himself pilloried for doing just that. It appears up thread that Dixon and OP had met before. Is that allowed?

 

[Val1]

BIB. I don't see the "kinked" WS thing, but I do appreciate the attempt at an answer to the question of how, if Reeva was dead long ago, did she spurt blood over the headboard and over the staircase railing.

Sequential Compression Devices are used on the lower leg to move blood through the body when people are unable to ambulate, because they run the risk of having blood pooling and it clotting and causing an embolism. Here Reeva had five open wounds and OPs picking up her body and cradling it and gripping it and changing both of those as he moved her from the bathroom to the downstairs would cause compression and decompression at certain points along the way. IMO that is the only explanation that makes any sense out of the facts.

bbm - Thanks, that was what I was trying to explain when I first introduced the "think kinked hose" physics theory ... yes, I believe you can trace that back to me.:facepalm:

 

[nastasya]

I will put it to you that every brave man who has ever fought in a war has felt panic, fear, terror, and the wish to flee. But they don't do that, they don't run from the enemy, they face him and fight in spite of this.

That is what courage is--feeling scared to death but meeting the challenge anyway, a situation that would be very familiar to a top athlete.

Men in battle are inspired to fight for their comrades in arms. OP's entire existence has been all about himself, all the time.

When OP shot the gun at the restaurant he ran from the possibility of being caught and allowed his friend to take the blame. That wasn't courageous.

There's not one instance I can recall in OP's history that exemplified him being courageous.

Running around a track is not courageous. It's just running in a circle. And when he lost he acted like a baby.

 

[nastasya]

Yes, but then again, how professional are these services? I don't think anyone was called to testify or to offer a recording of the call.

I was wondering if you noticed my earlier question. I guess we first have to determine where blood was identified as arterial spatter. I only know of the one case outside the bedroom. Maybe there's more places.

But assuming there is only the one spot, wouldn't you expect to see arterial spurting everywhere--starting in the toilet room, following the track he carried her--the bathroom, the bathroom hallway, the bedroom, the landing, the stairs, etc?

Wouldn't you expect this artery to be spurting blood as long as her heart is beating? And, that spatter to be everywhere?

He claims he laid her down on the bathroom floor after he took her out of the toilet. Wouldn't it be present there?

There didn't seem to be very much blood anywhere, to my mind, and given those massive injuries, which makes me think her heart stopped beating quickly, inside the toilet room.

Brain matter was also outside of her head when she was on the downstairs floor, per Dr. Stipp.

These were very serious injuries.

Your lack of knowledge of the evidence is causing you to reach conclusions that are false.

There was arterial blood spatter exactly in all the places you described. It wasn't just one spot.

Your conclusion was correct that the injuries were serious, and she stopped breathing right after the head shot.

The heart continues to beat until lack of blood pressure and oxygen causes cardiac arrest. The arterial blood spatter between the bathroom and the bottom the the stairs shows that her heart was still pumping blood out of her body.

And you're right, there was very little pooling of blood in the bathroom.

Combined this evidence leads to only one possible conclusion: OP's story about shooting her at 3:05 and not carrying her downstairs until 3:23 is false. She was shot closer to the 3:17 time.

This means that the witnesses who all testified to hearing a woman screaming followed by gunshots confirmed the forensic evidence. She was shot at or about 3:17 and OP carried her downstairs in the aftermath of the killing.

 

[wb180]

Men in battle are inspired to fight for their comrades in arms. OP's entire existence has been all about himself, all the time.

When OP shot the gun at the restaurant he ran from the possibility of being caught and allowed his friend to take the blame. That wasn't courageous.

There's not one instance I can recall in OP's history that exemplified him being courageous.

Running around a track is not courageous. It's just running in a circle. And when he lost he acted like a baby.

OP should have created a new version of events and said something like:

"As I heard a noise in the bathroom, I am reminded of my fellow SA countrymen - of how they were courageous but also vulnerable to head straight into danger.

I didn't tell Reeva to scream for the police (as soldiers never do that). They fight! So I scream (in a girls voice) "FOR MY COUNTRY" as I headed into the hallway!

Anyways, before I knew it, I shot 4 times into the door (I am sure soldiers do that too!).

After realising it was Reeva, I had to wait for 17 minutes because I immediately had PTSD (just like soldiers)."

 

[Linda7NJ]

OP should have created a new version of events and said something like:

"As I heard a noise in the bathroom, I am reminded of my fellow SA countrymen - of how they were courageous but also vulnerable to head straight into danger.

I didn't tell Reeva to scream for the police (as soldiers never do that). They fight! So I scream (in a girls voice) "FOR MY COUNTRY" as I headed into the hallway!

Anyways, before I knew it, I shot 4 times into the door (I am sure soldiers do that too!).

After realising it was Reeva, I had to wait for 17 minutes because I immediately had PTSD (just like soldiers)."

Hilarious!
Thanks for the laugh. I needed it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bazinga]

Yes, but then again, how professional are these services? I don't think anyone was called to testify or to offer a recording of the call.

I was wondering if you noticed my earlier question. I guess we first have to determine where blood was identified as arterial spatter. I only know of the one case outside the bedroom. Maybe there's more places.

But assuming there is only the one spot, wouldn't you expect to see arterial spurting everywhere--starting in the toilet room, following the track he carried her--the bathroom, the bathroom hallway, the bedroom, the landing, the stairs, etc?

Wouldn't you expect this artery to be spurting blood as long as her heart is beating? And, that spatter to be everywhere?

He claims he laid her down on the bathroom floor after he took her out of the toilet. Wouldn't it be present there?

There didn't seem to be very much blood anywhere, to my mind, and given those massive injuries, which makes me think her heart stopped beating quickly, inside the toilet room.

Brain matter was also outside of her head when she was on the downstairs floor, per Dr. Stipp.

These were very serious injuries.

You might want to look at the path Oscar took when getting her from the bathroom to the floor at the bottom of the stairs BUT he has testified that he doesn't remember carrying her to the top of the stairs so you couldn't do this accurately. Strangely this is a part of his story he can't or won't elaborate on. It makes me wonder what might have happened in these minutes.

 

[Apollo]

Men in battle are inspired to fight for their comrades in arms. OP's entire existence has been all about himself, all the time.

When OP shot the gun at the restaurant he ran from the possibility of being caught and allowed his friend to take the blame. That wasn't courageous.

There's not one instance I can recall in OP's history that exemplified him being courageous.

Running around a track is not courageous. It's just running in a circle. And when he lost he acted like a baby.

Yes he did! I cheered him on in his quest to be able to participate in the Olympics. I was thrilled when it was concluded that his blades did not give him an advantage and he was allowed to participate. Shortly after, he participated in the Paralympics and lost to the runner from Brazil. And what did he do???? Claimed the the blades that the runner had gave him an unfair advantage. Whaaaat???? Thankfully, it was decided that the blades that that runner used were proportional to his body and he did not have an advantage. That ended my admiration for OP---the sore loser.

 

[fox1lady]

No or I guess I would be on a weather site

I am just fascinated by human nature and thought it was interesting how when a person or persons believe that someone is guilty that they tend to see many points of guilt.

Just observing.

I'm acting as prosecution... tis my job (on Websleuth anyway)

 

[TrueDetective]

Funny, I see the absolute contrary.


(I was a former OP admirer, what was not to like -> Cute, boyish charm, overcoming adversity to become an Olympic Champion. I gave his story the benefit of the doubt but the evidence, witnesseses and fact that she was shot with remarkable accuracy through a door have convinced me otherwise).

Paralympic champion.

BIG difference.

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

Good night and apologies. Personally, even if we disagree, I have until now not taken it personally and do respect everyone's insights and opinions.

Hi Crass

Do come back. I really appreciate your posts!!

 

[steveml]

Can you imagine the pressure for witnesses to say what the police want them to say when the police are pressuring them to tailor their statements to get a conviction and to provide details that are not really factual?

Do you wonder how Mrs Stipp's statement ended up with a declaration that she saw a person walking in OP's bathroom when she really didn't see that?

No. Please. You didn't just write that did you.

What's wrong with it? It's an extremely valid point.

There have been many people adamant that witnesses credibility should not be questioned in this trial.

It's a question open to everybody.

 

[TrueDetective]

You might want to look at the path Oscar took when getting her from the bathroom to the floor at the bottom of the stairs BUT he has testified that he doesn't remember carrying her to the top of the stairs so you couldn't do this accurately. Strangely this is a part of his story he can't or won't elaborate on. It makes me wonder what might have happened in these minutes.

And bizarrely, Nel didn't want to ask him anything about it. Just accepted his version post-shooting.

Still cannot get past that despite CTC's assurances.

 

[fox1lady]

What was OP's reasoning for not asking Reeva to run out the bedroom run to get help?

She could have deactivated the alarm and run out and called security/police whilst he staved off the "intruders". By telling her to get down he was still putting her at risk if there were actually intruders. I just keep thinking (if he IS telling the truth) that she would have probably acted more sensibly than him had she known what the heck was happening; it seems she was totally oblivious to everything.

I reckon Masipa is going to use one of her well known lines on OP when she sends him down... "You are NOT a protector... a woman has the right to feel safe in her own home (although it wasn't technically her home)"

 

[Blunomore]

And bizarrely, Nel didn't want to ask him anything about it. Just accepted his version post-shooting.

Still cannot get past that despite CTC's assurances.

There is a simple answer to this - Nel can not afford discrediting OP's evidence to much on matters after the shooting. This might not sound correct to you but it is self evident. It is a fact that OP broke the door down and carried R to the ground floor (it is common cause). If Nel picks holes in this portion of evidence, and the court knows as a fact that it did happen; then the court could conclude that, even with the "holes" in OP's evidence, he is being absolutely truthful, as it knows as a fact that the incident did happened. [The state witnesses have already confirmed his evidence on breaking the door after the shots, and the blood trail to where Stipp examined Reeva]

 

[shane13]

And bizarrely, Nel didn't want to ask him anything about it. Just accepted his version post-shooting.

Still cannot get past that despite CTC's assurances.

Since Bail Hearing, it has been obvious to me that at least on certan aspects, the 2 sides are working together.

This one runs deep.

 

[soozieqtips]

They were not invented. They came from Baba's first written statement.

Okay thanks. Now I understand where the words came from. When Roux kept pushing Baba to say that he'd said 'I'm fine' - I was sure it was because that's what OP said he'd told him.

 

[sicknote]

Nel will get Stander to testify that OP told him Netcare asked him to drive the body to hospital.

OP had yet to phone Netcare......another DT witness going against Oscars version of events.

Nel is setting the DT up beautifully.......it really is a thing of beauty.

 

[james83]

Oh for goodness sake.
It was probably a simple mistake? As in - I didn't see that with my eyes my husband told me and I mistook it for my memory until I fully considered it. She did correct it almost immediately.
This is really ridiculous!! It's not like that statement made any difference to the charge or evidence or the outcome or was ever going to. If she was so influenced by police why go and correct it one day later?

I tend to trust this respected south african journalist who live tweets from the trial.

john barry ‏@johnbarry04 26m
@Debora_Patta Hi Debbie, How credible do you think Mrs Stipp's evidence will be considered after her mistake's?.
Keep up the great work.

Debora Patta ‏@Debora_Patta 10m
@johnbarry04 I still think she was credible and thanks for the kind words
Hide conversation

 

[Blunomore]

Nel will get Stander to testify that OP told him Netcare asked him to drive the body to hospital.

OP had yet to phone Netcare......another DT witness going against Oscars version of events.

Nel is setting the DT up beautifully.......it really is a thing of beauty.

How do you know this (the highlighted part)?