Trial Discussion Thread #31

[james83]

Why is your mission to protect an admitted killer?

There's plenty in this world who do and would even if he came out tomorrow and admitted he knew he was shooting at Reeva.
You just know he will receive many marriage proposal's when he is in prison, those woman are so damn creepy.

 

[Paysee]

Van Rensburg said that the photo of the bedroom (shown in court, the one that OP claims has things moved in it) is as it was when he first entered the room. The balcony door was open. Box of watches, lid open with about 8 watches.

Now off to listen to more of his testimony.

Torismom, you are dedicated and patient, and your opinion sound. Thank you for your posts

 

[nastasya]

Unread messages are kept for 30 days also I read this...

Experts said that there is a general perception that Whatsapp and Blackberry Messenger services are more secure than SMS and were thus used for communicating for spot fixing. The services are more difficult to track but the authorities have access to these services. The messages sent on these services are encrypted and exists outside mobile service provider.

WhatsApp site says messages are stored 7 days locally on the phone.

 

[sleuth-d-]

You said it yourself.

It's not in a position that you would expect it to fall had they been sleeping in bed and gotten out of bed in an expected manner.

It wasn't kicked off. It wasn't pulled off to one side.

You're 100% right. That duvet can't end up on the floor where it's at if Reeva was sleeping in bed and got up to use the bathroom.

Great find!!

and of course, if she was doing yoga, the duvet would be in that unnatural flat position [exactly where the police placed it... ]

 

[Viper]

Roux: If we look at this door, it is consistent, and I think it's conclusive in fact, and if you disagree we can go through it, that when the shots were fired the door was intact. It was not broken.

Vermeulen: That is true my Lady.

Roux: What is your view? When was the door hit?

Vermeulen: When was the door hit?

Roux: Hit with the bat. Before or after the shots.

Vermeulen: My Lady, I would say the door was hit after the shots, or at least some part of it broke after the shots. (Goes on to explain crack evidence)

[Ajournement]

Roux: Just before the adjournment you explained the basis why you testified that the shots were fired first and then it was the cricket bat hitting the door, (Vermuleun interjects 'That's correct') and you specifically refererred to the crack" (describes crack again)

Etc.

So while he does more than once reference the crack as the single piece of evidence he bases his conclusion on, he does not ever disagree with Roux and is clearly comfortable with a general conclusion about the order of events in this portion of his testimony. It is not until re-direct and Nel's questions that he concedes he can't draw any conclusions about a definitive sequence.

Here is the rest of the story. BTW, isn't this just a tired old thing now?:


Roux: When we look at this door, it is consistent, and I think it's conclusive in fact - if you disagree we can go through it - that when the shots were fired, the door was intact. It was not broken.

Vermuelen: That is true, Mi'Lady

Roux: What is your view? When was the door hit with the bat - before or after the shots?

Vermuelen: M'Lady, I would say the door was hit after the shots. ...if you look at the crack down here, it enters this bullet hole on the one side and then exits on the other side... so what this tells me is there had to be a hole in the door before this piece broke off, otherwise the crack would have gone straight through.

Nel: ...which happened first, the bullet shots or the bat. You said the hole was there before the panel was broken.

Vermeulen: That's correct M'lady.

Nel: Can you say scientifically - the first mark, if that was caused before the shots were fired?

Vermeulen: M'Lady, scientifically I would not think it would be possible to say whether small mark on the side - I would not be able to say that it was there before the shots were fired, no.

Nel: Do you know if the kicking happened before the shots, if it's a kick - that mark?

Vermuelen: That would also be very difficult to say, and I doubt one would be able to say that the kicking happened before or after the shots M'Lady.

Nel: Mr Roux put to you that the only reason why the accused would have kicked the door was to open it- remember that - get it open because it was locked.

Vermeulen: Yes ..

Nel: Could there be other reasons?

Vermeulen: I guess if we say other reasons, it might ...

Nel: Let us speculate, you're asked to speculate - could it have been to scare someone? Is it possible?

Vermeulen: If we speculate, it's possible.. (chuckle). We also cannot prove that that mark was caused during the unfortunate incident.



And here is a media reference:

Quote:
Prosecutor Gerrie Nel asked police forensic expert Johannes Vermeulen whether he could conclude that all four bullet holes appeared in the door before the dents made by the bat.

The question was aimed at testing the veracity of Pistorius's version of events, in which he fired four shots into the door then, after realising that Steenkamp was not asleep in bed, fetched a cricket bat to break down the door.

Vermeulen responded that he could not prove that this was indeed the case.

http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/20...-shots-bashing

 

[nastasya]

There's plenty in this world who do and would even if he came out tomorrow and admitted he knew he was shooting at Reeva.
You just know he will receive many marriage proposal's when he is in prison, those woman are so damn creepy.

I know a few middle-aged frumpy women who hate their lives and see beautiful, blonde Reeva and don't mind that OP put a bullet through her head.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

WhatsApp site says messages are stored 7 days locally on the phone.

That is my understanding of what would be the case unless and
I am no expert but from what my kids have told me that some people have them backed up to iCloud and if they are then deleted from the phone they can be recovered .
I am wondering if this has been the case here.
Can't see the states having any of them otherwise .

 

[DebinGA]

Sounds like OP's describing Reeva being somewhat upright, bent knees "tenting" the duvet, with whatever device she's using balanced against them. It would be impossible for her to get out of that position, off the bed, and out of the bedroom without OP seeing her.

 

[Paysee]

5 cyberbucks into the pot says they aren't, and given what we know right now, <modsnip>

Mistrial!

Do you know about the Jeffery Macdonald case?

The crime was as disturbed as it could be, and McD's wallet was stolen (and proven to be so) by an ambulance driver.

Yet, the evidence was sufficient to convict McD.

Like the prosecutor in the case said in court, "the defendant is entitled to a fair trial, not a perfect trial".

Molly, do you know of any case where a mistrial has been declared because the police allegedly tampered with the crime scene?

I have read of many cases where the DT alleges police tampering, not I have not read of any mistrials for this reason.

<modsnip> IMO.

 

[Really?]

The duvet's position needs some careful consideration.

As you can see from the attached picture, the duvet is quite flat and is quite some distance away from the bed. Pull a duvet off a bed aggressively and it doesn't land like this. Get out of bed by pulling the duvet swiftly to one side, again it doesn't land like this. Kick a duvet off the end of the bed, again it doesn't land like this.

In the photograph the duvet is not in a natural position at all, it is too wide and square to have just landed there. You can try this simple experiment for yourselves at home.


Link

surely this pic is after the police/photo dude spread it out for more photos, no?

if not.....what the h....e.....double toothpicks was that spread out for???

 

[minor4th]

I've not seen a clear photo showing the blood markings, but I'll have a look. Without being able to see under the duvet it's hard to know if there are more blood marks on the floor. There's nothing to suggest that the duvet was on the bed originally, it just seems likely that it may have been moved.

If the duvet has been moved then it would also be likely that the jeans were not originally in the position they appear on the photo.

The only reference I recall to any blood around the duvet on the floor was when Nel was interrogating him about the position of the duvet and jeans - they zoomed in and mentioned the blood spots on the carpet but I could not see them.

I'll have to go back and check but I believe Nel said that photo was taken at 6:58. If that's the case, it was well after the time various others had been through the crime scene and moved items about. That would be after Van Staden left the crime scene to take pictures outside OP's house

I'm not certain of the time Nel said though so if anyone has better info please correct me.

 

[Emz73]

I know a few middle-aged frumpy women who hate their lives and see beautiful, blonde Reeva and don't mind that OP put a bullet through her head.

They are found on twitter playing team Oscar.

 

[sleuth-d-]

To me a duvet it the white squashy bit and the outside is usually a cotton covering, the duvet cover. But under it, which the jeans are on, is a thin curtain looking material. No duvets don't usually have rings in them!

the duvet cover is light blue.
the duvet goes inside this.

the rings you refer to are one half of the poppers at the open end of the duvet cover - used for closing the open end of the duvet cover once the duvet is inside. two more poppers can be seen above the jeans...

 

[Viper]

.. and the continuous blood trail across the carpet, then onto the duvet and then with the jeans overlapping, seals the whole thing and confirms that the duvet hadn't been moved .. and if the duvet couldn't have been moved, then the fan could've have been placed there like OP says it was (not to mention the fan lead wasn't long enough to reach that position anyway :facepalm: )

I follow the story and it sounds great! All the way up to the point where they open the duvet and find blood inside too. Is that a figment of my imagination? I mean I may have heard the photographer wrongly. Let me know.

 

[minor4th]

surely this pic is after the police/photo dude spread it out for more photos, no?



if not.....what the h....e.....double toothpicks was that spread out for???

That is supposedly how the duvet appeared immediately after the incident, according to Nel. I'm not so sure that's the case though.

 

[Carmelita]

You said it yourself.

It's not in a position that you would expect it to fall had they been sleeping in bed and gotten out of bed in an expected manner.

It wasn't kicked off. It wasn't pulled off to one side.

You're 100% right. That duvet can't end up on the floor where it's at if Reeva was sleeping in bed and got up to use the bathroom.

Great find!!

I seems that the suggestion is that perhaps Reeva put it flat on the ground as a makeshift yoga mat.

 

[Emz73]

surely this pic is after the police/photo dude spread it out for more photos, no?

if not.....what the h....e.....double toothpicks was that spread out for???

When you read online it says the flat spread out pic is to look for blood.
You are right, that's obvious.

 

[Paysee]

nel commented ... how could duvet be 'repositioned' under jeans? op/roux didn't contest this.

op agreed:
the jeans were in the correct position.
the jeans were on top of the duvet. therefore the duvet is in the correct position too and didn't move.

you are saying the duvet was moved...

:loveyou:

 

[Ncl1968]

WhatsApp site says messages are stored 7 days locally on the phone.

....hidden in small print..
WhatsApp’s server until it can be delivered. If the message is undelivered for thirty (30) days, the undelivered message is deleted from our servers. Once a message has been delivered, it no longer resides on our servers.

 

[Paysee]

IMO It shows that they likely never went to bed, that it was placed there. It could have been used as a yoga mat by Reeva, they could have sat there drinking their coffee or tea, etc.

Or the duvet was taken off the bed because it was too hot that night.