Trial Discussion Thread #31

[liesbeth]

Dr Stipp only used the word "intermingled" one time I believe. And he clarified that he did not hear the two different voices at exactly the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZA03eu9NM

At about 53:00

Dr. Stipp says at that he wasn't sure so he didn't include it in his statement but he did mention it to Capt. van Aardt at the time. While the woman was screaming, he could also hear a man’s voice at the same time that sounded softer and lower. He believes he heard two different voices at the same time.

And later (not on the link above) under cross examination Roux suggests that both voices could have been OP. Stipp then asks: “Am I to believe that he was screaming in two voices or two tones”?

 

[BritsKate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZA03eu9NM

At about 52:00

Dr. Stipp says at that he wasn't sure so he didn't include it in his statement but he did mention it to Capt. van Aardt at the time. While the woman was screaming, he could also hear a man’s voice at the same time that sounded softer and lower. He believes he heard two different voices at the same time.

And later (not on the link above) under cross examination Roux suggests that both voices could have been OP. Stipp then asks: “Am I to believe that he was screaming in two voices or two tones”?

I just wanted to thank you for all your contributions. It is very much appreciated, as you live in South Africa, that you take the time to share your observations and knowledge with all of us, who may sometimes find it difficult to navigate a very unfamiliar criminal justice system. Really, thank you so much!

 

[sleuth-d-]

i always assumed that op took out two or more panels to be able to reach in for the key on the toilet floor... wherever it was on the floor.

this photo only shows one panel removed.
is it generally accepted that only one panel was removed?

http://news.sky.com/story/1097557/pistorius-images-show-bloody-scene-of-killing

 

[Val1]

That one rather simple point is not the only thing that the judges have to believe. They will not consider his fear of an intruder reasonable, because he lived in a Fortress Community. They will also not accept that him being disabled as a reasonable excuse for firing four bullets at what in his mind was an armed intruder behind a closed door. The judges have to consider those two things as well, not just his claim that he was in fear of his life. Unfortunately for OP it is not that simple, not as simple as it is often put forth here on the Internet.

bbm
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/oscar-pistorius--shoots--girlfriend--tranquil-estate--the-most-secure-in-south-africa--100524925.html#Z55UoDo

voted "the most secure estate in South Africa"

 

[kittychi]

Ok, I am going through what pictures I can find, looking for the alleged, non existent arterial blood spatter all over the house, and I am having trouble finding pictures.

Do we have access to all the pictures introduced in court?

If I were the conspiratorial type, which I am not for purposes of this trial, I would say she was killed elsewhere and placed in the bathroom after the fact, and Dr. Stipp really did hear two sets of gunshots. [second set shot into the toilet door to make it look like she was killed in the bathroom]

There is almost no blood in the toilet or the bathroom to speak of--certainly not what you would expect for her extensive wounds.

I wonder if that house has a basement...

Here are some other photos of the duvet/jeans, etc. from Juror 13; still hard to see, IMO, because of the graininess of the images:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/17/oscar-trial-day-21-oscar/

 

[Jake18]

Viper, here's the "pale heart" that you've suggested I'm the only one to note. And, I'll throw in a pale liver as well, both from "blood loss".

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar_Pistorius/Reevas-final-breaths-20140310

It also supplies us with the "missing blood" - if there was bleeding from the liver this would be huge.

And so, to recap :

Evidence for blood loss : A pale heart and pale liver.
Evidence that there was some cardiac activity after Reeva's final breaths ;
1) Prof Saaymans testimony that she would not have necessarily died immediately after the last breaths.
2) The blood splatter expert identifying arterial spurts on the landing.
3) Basic human physiology. In spite of your assertion that a heart beating for minutes after breathing stops is "impossible" I think crasshopper explained succinctly that the body's reservoir of oxygen allows this to happen. So much so that the layman CPR guidelines have been amended to only use chest compressions in a community cardiac arrest. It's also the reason that people with asthma, near drownings, drug overdoses, some head injuries (etc etc) survive a period of respiratory arrest. Furthermore, when resuscitating a birth asphyxiated infant the entire algorithm is based on the heart rate, NOT the breathing which is frequently absent.

You're saying :
1) I don't believe that the heart beat for some minutes after she stopped breathing because not breathing = dying.
2) The characteristic, reproducible blood splatter identified by the blood splatter expert on the landing is not arterial blood and caused by some odd flinging around of the body. I can't remember exactly what your reasoning was, you lost me when you likened it to a "compression stocking".
3) The blood splatter expert got it wrong because he didn't read the autopsy repost, even though he attended the autopsy. And I don't like his findings so I'm going to say he's wrong.

Finally, you seem fixated on there being no blood loss because she died of head trauma and resistant to any suggestion that the head shot killed her, incapacitated her and stopped her breathing but that the significant blood loss certainly didn't help.

 

[G.bng]

We're not entirely certain that the gun was cocked when it was found.

Col van Rensburg said that while he and colleagues were collecting evidence on the morning of February 14, 2013, shortly after the shooting, he heard the sound of a gun being cocked behind him.

Cocked or the magazine being removed (which I have no idea if it sounds the same, similar or what) as CVR said he saw Botha had taken the magazine out?

 

[JuneBug67]

This is why i have always said that it makes far more logical, scientific sense that the second set of noises around 3:17 which were heard by all five ear witnesses were far more likely to be the gun shots, since some of the ear witnesses were some distance away and i simply do not think the sound of the cricket bat hitting the door would have travelled that far.

As many people keep saying, there is a choice between a logical simple explanation which fits the evidence so far with no requirement for suspension of disbelief, or an outlandish fabrication cobbling together a whole string of unlikely actions and unbelievable coincidences. I know which one seems more compelling for me at the moment.

I think we have heard recordings of the cricket bat at distances proximate to those of the ear witnesses. They were completely audible. Nobody as far as I recall claimed to be awoken by the shot sounds of 3:17. They either had a sense of being awoken by the shot sounds of 3:00 ish or the screaming that followed and preceded the 3:17 sounds. So everybody was already awake to hear what the defense contends were bat strikes.

 

[BritsKate]

i always assumed that op took out two or more panels to be able to reach in for the key on the toilet floor... wherever it was on the floor.

this photo only shows one panel removed.
is it generally accepted that only one panel was removed?

http://news.sky.com/story/1097557/pistorius-images-show-bloody-scene-of-killing

I'm really not good at posting photos that don't blow margins but here's a link to my photobucket. There are a few screengrabs that show a lot more of the door missing. How it fits in with testimony, or what pictures were taken when, I really can't recall...I remember being very surprised by how much of the door was gone though.

Oscar Pistorius Trial Mini-Album

 

[sleuth-d-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZA03eu9NM

At about 53:00

Dr. Stipp says at that he wasn't sure so he didn't include it in his statement but he did mention it to Capt. van Aardt at the time. While the woman was screaming, he could also hear a man’s voice at the same time that sounded softer and lower. He believes he heard two different voices at the same time.

And later (not on the link above) under cross examination Roux suggests that both voices could have been OP. Stipp then asks: “Am I to believe that he was screaming in two voices or two tones”?

stipp also mentions only three bangs [in the second set of noises].

 

[Feynman]

It is astonishing that so much attention might be put towards investigating a missing watch when the removal of vital evidence ie phone from a crime scene seems to be being ignored .

So why didn't Nel make more of the removal of this vital evidence? Was holding on to the fifth phone illegal as some here have claimed? If so, why weren't charges filed? That would be a much more damning charge than storing .38 ammo in the safe IMO.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I'm really not good at posting photos that don't blow margins but here's a link to my photobucket. There are a few screengrabs that show a lot more of the door missing. How it fits in with testimony, or what pictures were taken when, I really can't recall...I remember being very surprised by how much of the door was gone though.

Oscar Pistorius Trial Mini-Album

thanks for the images/information.

 

[soozieqtips]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZA03eu9NM

At about 53:00

Dr. Stipp says at that he wasn't sure so he didn't include it in his statement but he did mention it to Capt. van Aardt at the time. While the woman was screaming, he could also hear a man’s voice at the same time that sounded softer and lower. He believes he heard two different voices at the same time.

And later (not on the link above) under cross examination Roux suggests that both voices could have been OP. Stipp then asks: “Am I to believe that he was screaming in two voices or two tones”?

Thank you liesbeth. So Dr Stipp did say he heard 2 voices at the same time. I hadn't watched that part of the trial so I wasn't sure. I'll watch the clip tomorrow. The 2 voices intermingled are OP's biggest problem. He's already tried to discredit Stipp by claiming he seemed 'overwhelmed' and 'unsure' of what he was doing when he was on the scene, but unless he can convincingly discredit his hearing, then those 2 voices aren't going to go away, and those 2 separate voices help prove that OP was interacting with Reeva at some point before he murdered her.

In OP's multiple versions of what happened, at no point does Reeva make any sound except to say "Can't you sleep Baba' - and after that brief exchange she is apparently struck mute and doesn't even scream after he shoots her. Well, OP says 'no woman screamed that night' but is then reluctantly forced to admit he couldn't know that for sure as he was deafened by his own gun that he'd just murdered her with.

 

[Mango33]

I remember the witness talking about what he took off the actual phone. But it's possibe I missed something about related or synced sources. thanks.

Also Cape wrote a couple days ago she knows [of] hackers in Joburg who get these phones and alter them. I myself know little of the electronics matters.

if there were nothing crucial here, Roux and Co. would have immediaely returned the phone to Pros. and there would not be the excision of the stipulations at the beginning of March 25 Session 1.

I/we await Cape's return on her "long think" on my 'logic of the 5th phone removal from the crime scene."

I don't think the IT witness mentioned syncing one way or another in his testimony. My point was more that with smartphones, one can't necessarily assume that the data is uniquely "in" a particular phone.

For example, if I receive a text on the native iphone message app on my iphone when I am at work, it will appear automatically on my ipad's message app at home at the same time. No idea if OPs were set up the same way, but anyone who wants to try to delete iphone data, would face that possibility.

I also look forward to Cape's insight.

I agree that there must have been a reason the phone was not returned more quickly.

 

[BritsKate]

Thank you liesbeth. So Dr Stipp did say he heard 2 voices at the same time. I hadn't watched that part of the trial so I wasn't sure. I'll watch the clip tomorrow. The 2 voices intermingled are OP's biggest problem. He's already tried to discredit Stipp by claiming he seemed 'overwhelmed' and 'unsure' of what he was doing when he was on the scene, but unless he can convincingly discredit his hearing, then those 2 voices aren't going to go away, and those 2 separate voices help prove that OP was interacting with Reeva at some point before he murdered her.

In OP's multiple versions of what happened, at no point does Reeva make any sound except to say "Can't you sleep Baba' - and after that brief exchange she is apparently struck mute and doesn't even scream after he shoots her. Well, OP says 'no woman screamed that night' but is then reluctantly forced to admit he couldn't know that for sure as he was deafened by his own gun that he'd just murdered her with.

RBBM
He also stated both Stipps were lying. IIRC, it was when he was questioned about the Stipps stating the light was on.

 

[Viper]

Viper, here's the "pale heart" that you've suggested I'm the only one to note. And, I'll throw in a pale liver as well, both from "blood loss".

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar_Pistorius/Reevas-final-breaths-20140310

It also supplies us with the "missing blood" - if there was bleeding from the liver this would be huge.

And so, to recap :

Evidence for blood loss : A pale heart and pale liver.
Evidence that there was some cardiac activity after Reeva's final breaths ;
1) Prof Saaymans testimony that she would not have necessarily died immediately after the last breaths.
2) The blood splatter expert identifying arterial spurts on the landing.
3) Basic human physiology. In spite of your assertion that a heart beating for minutes after breathing stops is "impossible" I think crasshopper explained succinctly that the body's reservoir of oxygen allows this to happen. So much so that the layman CPR guidelines have been amended to only use chest compressions in a community cardiac arrest. It's also the reason that people with asthma, near drownings, drug overdoses, some head injuries (etc etc) survive a period of respiratory arrest. Furthermore, when resuscitating a birth asphyxiated infant the entire algorithm is based on the heart rate, NOT the breathing which is frequently absent.

You're saying :
1) I don't believe that the heart beat for some minutes after she stopped breathing because not breathing = dying.
2) The characteristic, reproducible blood splatter identified by the blood splatter expert on the landing is not arterial blood and caused by some odd flinging around of the body. I can't remember exactly what your reasoning was, you lost me when you likened it to a "compression stocking".
3) The blood splatter expert got it wrong because he didn't read the autopsy repost, even though he attended the autopsy. And I don't like his findings so I'm going to say he's wrong.

Finally, you seem fixated on there being no blood loss because she died of head trauma and resistant to any suggestion that the head shot killed her, incapacitated her and stopped her breathing but that the significant blood loss certainly didn't help.

I read your link. Nothing new. Certainly not death by exsanguination as you would like it to be.

I will stick with Professor Saymaan on this. He determined that Reeva died within 2-3 breaths of being shot in her head, and he determined the cause of her death was "gunshot wounds." Reeva did not bleed to death. :facepalm:

ETA: Why would you post "if there was bleeding from her liver...?" There is absolute nothing about that in your link! You are again speculating to suit what you want her death to be, and confusing people. You are trying to create injuries and internal bleeding that Dr. Saymaan would have found and noted if they had existed, but they did not, they are just your personal speculations. I really must read carefully anything that you post.

 

[G.bng]

just wondering... how does a duvet look, when it has been part of a struggle or panic?

Very crumpled !

 

[soozieqtips]

RBBM
He also stated both Stipps were lying. IIRC, it was when he was questioned about the Stipps stating the light was on.

Oh yeah. They're both liars too. I forgot about that. The liar's list is too long for me to keep up with! I find it ironic that OP's efforts to 'defend' himself against a crime he 'failed' to see he should be charged with, have actually shown him to be the :liar: and the least credible witness of all.

 

[Feynman]

but why remove a watch from the scene?
why remove anything from the scene, and then talk about police tampering of the crime scene.
ridiculous.

One of the watches was stolen by police already according to van Rensburg. Aimee asked if she could take one, the police said OK. Maybe it was a present from her to OP, sentimental value; maybe she was afraid that one would go "missing" too. Who knows? The police stealing a watch is a big deal. Aimee asking for one and being granted permission is not.

 

[molly333]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/hln/www/release/sites/default/files/2014/04/01/img_0870.jpg

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polop...rivatives/article_1200/pistorius15n-3-web.jpg

She was supposedly shot 3 or 4 times in that little room.

Where's all the blood?

Where's the high velocity blood spatter all over the walls?

http://hemospat.com/terminology/images/High_Velocity_Impact_Spatter.jpg