Trial Discussion Thread #31

[nastasya]

I still cannot get over it...the claim that Oscar screams like a woman is the most preposterous load that has come out of this trial.

I respectfully disagree.

I think the stories that two different guns spontaneously fired 5 shots while OP was holding them is more preposterous.

 

[Viper]

I love our medical posters. Wanna know why? I struggle to understand even basic concepts of physiology or anatomy because I get squeamish over sneezes!

So...putting aside for a moment the debates over arterial spray and pale organs...could any of you, assuming you have the time and inclination, just confirm or refute the timelines provided by the State and defence? In simple terms? Pretty, pretty please? (Admittedly, I'm becoming very confused over arterial spray and blood loss and I think we're all at a disadvantage since Saayman's testimony was on lockdown.)

Defence states gunshots shortly after 3am and door broken down at 3:17am. (OP estimates he fired at 3:12.) Call to netcare at 3:20. Reeva dies downstairs a few minutes later.

State contends gunshots at 3:17am. Unlikely Reeva dies downstairs based on testimony by both pathologists (2-3 breaths, swift death) but we have, afaik, only OP's testimony for this anyway.

My medical understanding is extremely limited but based on logic alone, considering the testimony given so far, I just cannot see how the defence assertion is remotely even possible? Is it made possible with 3:12 as the shooting time even though that time contradicts an earlier time?

TIA for your patience with me! (And I'm so sorry if you've already answered this and I missed it!)

BIB. I don't know if you have noticed what these conversations are speaking to, but basically there are two others that want to speculate about fantastic reasons why Reeva was alive from the time that she was shot to the time that she was carried down the stairs. It goes against Dr. Saymaan's finding that Reeva died within seconds of the shots being fired. And their arguments go against common sense, it is all just ludicrous.

I am not aware of any DT expert that has made the case that Dr. Saymaan was wrong in saying that Reeva died within seconds of being shot. So it would not be different on either timeline.

The arterial spurt issue is separate but confusing, because it is assumed here by many that Reeva would have to be alive, her heart pumping blood, for her severed arteries to spurt blood. But that is not the case, obviously. It would not surprise me if a DT expert or just Roux in closing points to that to say Reeva was alive all the way up to being placed on the floor downstairs. Probably just Roux though. IMO

Hope that is helpful and clearer than the babble in prior posts. :smile:

 

[minor4th]

Here's more on Johann Stipp's testimony. Roux asked the question about whether he heard the two voices absolutely at the exact same time, but before he can answer Nel objects and is up quite a while making an objection and then there's a discussion about what exactly is the state's case. The question never gets answered - it is basically dropped and forgotten by the time Roux resumes.

ROUX: You heard two types of voices, two tones, one male, one female

JS: Yes, that's correct.

---

JS: I heard a woman screaming. But also intermingled, I also heard a man, so am I to believe that he was screaming in two voices or two tones?

ROUX: You can't say it was absolutely the same time. You can say I heard screaming, and I wrote down what you were saying ... what you heard ...you heard a woman screaming and you also heard a man's voice

JS: Yes, intermingled with the woman's ...

ROUX: It sounded to you Doctor that it was intermingled, but let's take it back (Roux goes on to put it to Stipp that Reeva couldn't have screamed after the fatal wounding)..It could not have been the deceased

Nel objects, long discussion about what exactly is the state's case, Nel says Reeva shot at 3:17 and gives no explanation for the earlier shots that woke up the Stipps - Judge seems confused about what the state's case is, as well. Nel says all the gunshots happened at 3:17

Roux continues ....

ROUX: There is a concession from the state - the shots fired at the deceased caused her not to be able to scream, not to have cognitive function ... Would you agree that if the shots you heard before 3:17 - if those were the shots fired, then the deceased could not have screamed.

JS: That's correct. If those were shots, she could not have screamed.

ROUX: If there was screaming and you heard a voice sounding like - and you used that word in your evidence - sounding like a woman, and you heard a male voice, then we must look for something else because it could not have been the deceased ..well, it could have been the accused

ROUX: If that is so, then I put to you that although you honestly took that to be a female voice and a male voice, that it was in fact the same voice

JS: Well, I have to say they did sound different

Roux accepts that and tells JS about Van der Merwe hearing loud crying she thought was a woman but her husband said it was OP. Nel objects again and wants clarification of "crying". Roux makes it clear that it's crying that can be heard 105 meters away

ROUX: To you it sounded like a woman and a man, respectively ...

JS: It did

Video Link

 

[BritsKate]

BIB. I don't know if you have noticed what these conversations are speaking to, but basically there are two others that want to speculate about fantastic reasons why Reeva was alive from the time that she was shot to the time that she was carried down the stairs. It goes against Dr. Saymaan's finding that Reeva died within seconds of the shots being fired. And their arguments go against common sense, it is all just ludicrous.

I am not aware of any DT expert that has made the case that Dr. Saymaan was wrong in saying that Reeva died within seconds of being shot. So it would not be different on either timeline.

The arterial spurt issue is separate but confusing, because it is assumed here by many that Reeva would have to be alive, her heart pumping blood, for her severed arteries to spurt blood. But that is not the case, obviously. It would not surprise me if a DT expert or just Roux in closing points to that to say Reeva was alive all the way up to being placed on the floor downstairs. Probably just Roux though. IMO

Hope that is helpful and clearer than the babble in prior posts. :smile:

RBBM
I'd say! I very much appreciate the clarity, Viper, thank you!

 

[Jake18]

BIB. I don't know if you have noticed what these conversations are speaking to, but basically there are two others that want to speculate about fantastic reasons why Reeva was alive from the time that she was shot to the time that she was carried down the stairs. It goes against Dr. Saymaan's finding that Reeva died within seconds of the shots being fired. And their arguments go against common sense, it is all just ludicrous.

I am not aware of any DT expert that has made the case that Dr. Saymaan was wrong in saying that Reeva died within seconds of being shot. So it would not be different on either timeline.

The arterial spurt issue is separate but confusing, because it is assumed here by many that Reeva would have to be alive, her heart pumping blood, for her severed arteries to spurt blood. But that is not the case, obviously. It would not surprise me if a DT expert or just Roux in closing points to that to say Reeva was alive all the way up to being placed on the floor downstairs. Probably just Roux though. IMO

Hope that is helpful and clearer than the babble in prior posts. :smile:

Arterial spurting = beating heart. Crasshopper even went to the trouble of looking this up in forensic medical journals. Maybe you should present your compression stocking theory to the DT because it's certainly novel

 

[minor4th]

Snipped for brevity and with respect.



BBM. No mention of seconds. So 05:58 is actually a whole minute long from 05:58:01 to 05:58:59.



BBM. At first OP couldn't say what had been moved in the room. He kept saying he didn't know, it was dark and the experts will prove contamination. Only after Nel had shown him that the position of the fan, duvet, jeans and curtains contradicts his story did he say that they must have been moved.

I mentioned before that Motha was not the official police photographer. There's no reason for him to ensure the time on his camera's correct. But because Van Staden was the official photographer he had to make sure his time was correct. We know that he did make sure because the time and the sequence of his images were verified by the police clerk.

So I will wait for the defense experts (and their cross examinations) to prove tampering.

Yes, I think there were several photos taken at 5:58 of that general area of the fan, duvet, curtains etc. That does not trouble me.

And I'm not suggesting tampering or a conspiracy or any kind of frame-up. All I'm saying is that the evidence suggests that the police did not take good care of the crime scene and did not document it like they should have. And because of that it makes it really difficult to know for sure which pictures are reliable and whether any of them can confidently be considered accurate depictions of the crime scene exactly after the incident.

BTW there were also pictures taken by Motha upstairs at 5:57 and some seconds. There has been no testimony that the time stamps on either photographer's cameras was inaccurate, so I'm presuming that they were at least close to accurate

 

[crasshopper]

Rewatched a portion of Dateline to review a segment with Reggie Perumal, a forensic pathologist presented as an expert for the defense. He said, in summary, we all agree that Reeva died on the way down the stairs. Dateline also reported the GSW to the head was above the ear. No mention of a shattered skull base or trajectory but given the bullets used obviously the damage was extensive. This supports continued (weak) cardiac activity and arterial spurts in the bedroom and somewhere in the stair area. Personally, again I feel this supports cricket bat first.

I don't know if this is why Perumal (?Perumai) is no longer with the DT.

From the article below-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/04/18/the-tattered-defense-of-oscar-pistorius/?tid=pm_national_pop

Afterward, a star pathologist who Oscar Pistorius had hired to bolster the athlete’s defense announced he would not testify when trial resumes. “No, ma’am,” Reggie Perumal, who had been hired in time to attend Steenkamp’s autopsy, told an Agence France Presse reporter. ”I think you’re aware that I can’t say anything now.”

...things that make you go hmmm

 

[Val1]

Originally Posted by Val1 View Post
I thought that was only because the DT was trying to show that the first set of sounds were gunshots, which as it turns out, does not fit with what all 5 witnesses heard or the blood evidence, correct? Seems like a red herring that got the DT spending much of their resources trying to prove something that in the end makes no difference to what actually caused RS's death.

are you saying there is no difference between bat first/gunshots second... and gunshots first/bat second?

it makes no difference to what actually caused rs death, but makes a MASSIVE difference to the circumstances leading up to her death.

bbm - Only if you discount what all 5 witnesses heard. All 5 heard a set of sounds at approximately the same time, which corresponds to when RS must have died, as determined by the arterial spurts outside of the toilet room, correct? Does that not make the first set of sounds moot?

 

[Val1]

Rewatched a portion of Dateline to review a segment with Reggie Perumal, a forensic pathologist presented as an expert for the defense. He said, in summary, we all agree that Reeva died on the way down the stairs. Dateline also reported the GSW to the head was above the ear. No mention of a shattered skull base or trajectory but given the bullets used obviously the damage was extensive. This supports continued (weak) cardiac activity and arterial spurts in the bedroom and somewhere in the stair area. Personally, again I feel this supports cricket bat first.

I don't know if this is why Perumal (?Perumai) is no longer with the DT.

From the article below-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/04/18/the-tattered-defense-of-oscar-pistorius/?tid=pm_national_pop



...things that make you go hmmm

Apparently the DT has negated that, Perumal is still on the team, whether or not he will testify we don't know yet.

 

[Viper]

Her heart, however, just like her liver, was pale in colour as a result of blood loss, said Saayman. (From the very article you are discussing.

I know, I read the link. Dr. Saymaan noted that, but the poster went further to claim that it was evidence of her liver bleeding internally, hence the reason why there is very little blood in the WC or the bathroom. Obviously Reeva lost blood, but not very much and she certainly did not bleed to death as the other poster believes.

I feel like this has become the new "bat sounds first - gunshot sounds first" argument all over again. Perhaps it is best to just let people be confused and confuse others; it must be fun for those who just watch the spectacle!

 

[BritsKate]

bbm - Only if you discount what all 5 witnesses heard. All 5 heard a set of sounds at approximately the same time, which corresponds to when RS must have died, as determined by the arterial spurts outside of the toilet room, correct? Does that not make the first set of sounds moot?

No, because those first sounds are the difference between murder and not. First bangs being part of an altercation back the State's assertion Reeva was intentionally murdered in the heat of an argument.

That's my understanding...and it would make sense the defence would fight so hard for the earlier bangs to be the gunshots even though it seems implausible.

JMO

 

[Viper]

True, I'll give you that! But she definitely bled a lot.

BIB. Where is the blood?

 

[minor4th]

bbm - Only if you discount what all 5 witnesses heard. All 5 heard a set of sounds at approximately the same time, which corresponds to when RS must have died, as determined by the arterial spurts outside of the toilet room, correct? Does that not make the first set of sounds moot?

You would think that if it's the state's case that there could not have been arterial spurt if Reeva had been killed by the first shots (before 3:17), their experts would have mentioned this - as this seems to be a pretty crucial point for the state if that is true.

Since the state has not put on any evidence to that effect, I do not believe the judge can then make assumptions about the time of her wound or go consult another expert or research it on her own. She is bound by the evidence that is presented to her in court.

I suppose if she is confused about this, she could call another expert in to explain it further. Perhaps she will.

 

[minor4th]

No, because those first sounds are the difference between murder and not. First bangs being part of an altercation back the State's assertion Reeva was intentionally murdered in the heat of an argument.

That's my understanding...and it would make sense the defence would fight so hard for the earlier bangs to be the gunshots even though it seems implausible.

JMO

Why does that seem implausible to you?

 

[liesbeth]

and bingo, just after that [27:20ish], as roux insists that the first shots killed rs, so she couldn't have screamed after that time... nel is up... saying this is not the state's case.

Yes! Thank you for pointing it out.

 

[Val1]

Yes, I think there were several photos taken at 5:58 of that general area of the fan, duvet, curtains etc. That does not trouble me.

And I'm not suggesting tampering or a conspiracy or any kind of frame-up. All I'm saying is that the evidence suggests that the police did not take good care of the crime scene and did not document it like they should have. And because of that it makes it really difficult to know for sure which pictures are reliable and whether any of them can confidently be considered accurate depictions of the crime scene exactly after the incident.

BTW there were also pictures taken by Motha upstairs at 5:57 and some seconds. There has been no testimony that the time stamps on either photographer's cameras was inaccurate, so I'm presuming that they were at least close to accurate

Iirc, I heard Nel asking the date of some pics that had been presented and overheard his assistant or whoever it was say April 8th or something like that to which he gave a laugh and they didn't pursue the subject. I believe it was during the first few days of testimony if that corresponds with what you are referring to?

 

[lisasalinger]

and another possible lie exposed:
op said he went out onto the balcony to scream 'help, help, help'. but note here, what is reported by van R first on the scene...

"When Botha and Van Rensburg went upstairs, the door to the balcony was locked, but they found the key."

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/ex-cop-tells-of-oscar-crime-scene-1.1660847#.U1ZwpOZdW2U

BBM

I'm a few pages behind trying to catch up, so not sure if anybody has addressed this yet.

The police were not referring to the bedroom balcony, they were referring to a different door that leads out to the roof balcony where the hot tub was. That door was locked.

The bedroom balcony door was indeed open when the police arrived. In my opinion, it was never closed at all that night and I believe the evidence on the right side of the bed substantiates that.

 

[minor4th]

Iirc, I heard Nel asking the date of some pics that had been presented and overheard his assistant or whoever it was say April 8th or something like that to which he gave a laugh and they didn't pursue the subject. I believe it was during the first few days of testimony if that corresponds with what you are referring to?

I believe that was something entirely different. That was way before there was any mention of Col Motha's photos. I do generally remember that happening though.

 

[Jake18]

Rewatched a portion of Dateline to review a segment with Reggie Perumal, a forensic pathologist presented as an expert for the defense. He said, in summary, we all agree that Reeva died on the way down the stairs. Dateline also reported the GSW to the head was above the ear. No mention of a shattered skull base or trajectory but given the bullets used obviously the damage was extensive. This supports continued (weak) cardiac activity and arterial spurts in the bedroom and somewhere in the stair area. Personally, again I feel this supports cricket bat first.

I don't know if this is why Perumal (?Perumai) is no longer with the DT.

From the article below-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/04/18/the-tattered-defense-of-oscar-pistorius/?tid=pm_national_pop



...things that make you go hmmm

BIB. I've bookmarked this for future reference, thanks! Couldn't really be any clearer, could it?

 

[liesbeth]

You would think that if it's the state's case that there could not have been arterial spurt if Reeva had been killed by the first shots (before 3:17), their experts would have mentioned this - as this seems to be a pretty crucial point for the state is that is true.

Since the state has not put on any evidence to that effect, I do not believe the judge can then make assumptions about the time of her wound or go consult another expert or research it on her own. She is bound by the evidence that is presented to her in court.

I suppose if she is confused about this, she could call another expert in to explain it further. Perhaps she will.

We're only in the first stage of the trial. Once the PT and DT have presented and tested all the evidence (by cross examination) each party will then present it's case to the judge and argue their case on the evidence presented. The state usually goes first.