Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Viper]

He hasn't changed his defense. It's still putative self defense.

And, the Judge only has to believe that what he believed in his mind was reasonably possibly true.

That's not a very high standard of proof.

That one rather simple point is not the only thing that the judges have to believe. They will not consider his fear of an intruder reasonable, because he lived in a Fortress Community. They will also not accept that him being disabled as a reasonable excuse for firing four bullets at what in his mind was an armed intruder behind a closed door. The judges have to consider those two things as well, not just his claim that he was in fear of his life. Unfortunately for OP it is not that simple, not as simple as it is often put forth here on the Internet.

 

[nastasya]

One thing I'd like to add, with regards to a high-pitched scream, is that in certain circumstances a male voice can go higher than most expect.

Here's an example, and it's very typical in this situation when there's a lot of emotion and aggression involved. The following few seconds when he screams "En garde!"

http://youtu.be/wEXsPgQVwCU?t=45m47s

The pitch of a sounds is only a small portion of the variables that would lead somebody to identify the source of the sound.

A trumpet and a violin can play the same note and you can tell one is a trumpet and the other a violin. And electric guitar and an acoustic guitar can play the same note and you can tell one is an electric guitar and the other is an acoustic guitar.

All 5 witnesses testified with 100% certainty they heard a woman screaming in terror. Their testimony was independent of the pitch.

Re you example on the video, I would bet money that 10 out of 10 people would hear the guy scream "en garde!" an not say it was a woman screaming.

And then there's the problem that the witnesses heard both a man and woman's voice intermingled and consecutively, describing clearly the man saying, "Help help help" which OP confirmed is what he screamed.

 

[molly333]

You have missed the point that OP is the confessed killer, and as such it is the burden of the defense to prove that the killing was an exception to the South African murder laws.

Walking from one position to another to get a gun, then following a woman down two passages and firing four shots into the toilet door behind which she was standing is prima facie evidence of premeditated intent to kill.

The defense has the burden of proof to show why it was not intent to kill, and to explain the myriad of witnesses who heard a woman screaming before gunshots silenced her.

So far OP's explanations have been contradicted by every bit of evidence on the crime scene, e.g., the broken bedroom door, the fan blocking the door to the balcony, the jeans on the duvet, the blood on the duvet and the carpet, the clippers beside the bed, the blood on the watches, the internet access after he claimed they were both asleep, the undigested food in Reeva's stomach, the lack of pooled blood in the bathroom with arterial blood spatter between that bathroom and front door, etc.

Also, it's helpful to argue a position from a place of knowing the evidence and facts, not on guessing or projecting your own beliefs.

The prosecutor wants to convict him of SA's version of premeditated murder.

It is my understanding he has to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.

Oscar says it is putative self defense. Oscar has to prove this to the standard of reasonably possibly true.

Oscar has met his standard, IMO and Prosecutor has not.

I defer to the atty's on this however.

 

[nastasya]

I do think the police pressured witnesses and wrote up statements that were favorable to their case and not necessarily the witnesses' own words in every instance.

Is there one scintilla of actual evidence that the police pressured witnesses to make statements favorable to the case, or are you just totally pulling this out of your own head?

 

[Nausicaa]

The only person saying anything about "arterial spurt" is Nest. It goes against all of the other evidence to say that Reeva was alive, or she was not breathing and yet her heart was still beating, from 3:17 to 3:25 when OP carried her down the stairs.

Nest was wrong about arterial spurt. Dr. Saymaan was right about Reeva dying within seconds of receiving the bullet that ripped through her head and brain.

What still strikes me as surreal about this disagreement is that an exsanguinated body is easily differentiated from one that contains its blood and anyone who has seen the body and is half-way competent therefore knows the answer. I cannot understand why this important fact has not been elicited in open court : where is Reeva's blood ?

Either answer would be bad for OP: if we have arterial spurting outside the W.C. OP's timeline is proved to be a total lie. If, on the other hand, we have instantaneous cessation of vital functions with the last shot, his story of her breathing and dying in his arms is proved to be a total lie. The only thing that serves OP's cause is leaving the issue up in the air.

 

[Irisha]

It's reasonably possibly true I say
That I thought a burglar broke in
Who was coming to do me in that day
So first I did him in.

Bad rhymes are not a good defense.:twocents:

 

[nastasya]

4 shots fired by accident one handed in the dark by a man on his stumps with poor balance all ended up in close proximity to each other, and people believe him.

...who followed these four shots by making the exact sounds of a woman being attacked and shot.

But the witnesses missed hearing the actual shots and only heard the replicated sounds of a woman screaming and shots.

Oh, and the police moved the fans, duvet, and jeans in the exact position that would contradict his entire story... and he broke down the left side of the bedroom door with his shoulder in a brilliant moment of anticipation realizing he couldn't carry Reeva back down to the front door through the open right side of the door, even before picking her up in the bathroom.

 

[zoran]

excuse me if this has been posted already to many threads to check but its a very short Vid called why did Oscar kill our daughter, well worth a look

Why Did Oscar Pistorius Kill Our Daughter? - YouTube

 

[molly333]

That one rather simple point is not the only thing that the judges have to believe. They will not consider his fear of an intruder reasonable, because he lived in a Fortress Community. They will also not accept that him being disabled as a reasonable excuse for firing four bullets at what in his mind was an armed intruder behind a closed door. The judges have to consider those two things as well, not just his claim that he was in fear of his life. Unfortunately for OP it is not that simple, not as simple as it is often put forth here on the Internet.

The Judges live there themselves. I'm sure they know how dangerous the place is. Seven times the murder rate of the USA.

Police investigators steal your personal property while investigating the crime scene.

Allegations of cover-ups and framing.

All they have to believe is that it was reasonably possibly true that he believed the same thing they know to be true from their own experience.

 

[jay-jay]

I know, it's terrible! I still found my foot tapping though....

I started singing it while I was doing the washing up just now ..

 

[james83]

...who followed these four shots by making the exact sounds of a woman being attacked and shot.

But the witnesses missed hearing the actual shots and only heard the replicated sounds of a woman screaming and shots.

Oh, and the police moved the fans, duvet, and jeans in the exact position that would contradict his entire story... and he broke down the left side of the bedroom door with his shoulder in a brilliant moment of anticipation realizing he couldn't carry Reeva back down to the front door through the open right side of the door, even before picking her up in the bathroom.

And don't forget these screams and shouts he was making totally stopped the moment he broke the door down and saw her, and not as the state say the exact moment he fired the shots through the door and killed her, and apparently it's the state who are using smoke and mirror's, LOL.

 

[nastasya]

He hasn't changed his defense. It's still putative self defense.

And, the Judge only has to believe that what he believed in his mind was reasonably possibly true.

That's not a very high standard of proof.

You are 100% incorrect.

Do you need to watch the videos of his testimony when Nel asked him if he intended to shoot the door or the intruder?

He said said no, he didn't intend to shoot anybody.

Self-defense also does not include pursuing somebody and gunning them down as they were fleeing.

OP's own story is he screamed at the alleged intruder to leave his house, the alleged intruder hid upon OP's command to leave his house. The alleged intruder clearly did not open the toilet door to come out since the door was locked, according to OP.

His own story is one of chasing down a fleeing intruder gunning them down with zero provocation.

Nowhere in that narrative is self-defense. It's a perversion of the word.

 

[Viper]

The Judges live there themselves. I'm sure they know how dangerous the place is. Seven times the murder rate of the USA.

Police investigators steal your personal property while investigating the crime scene.

Allegations of cover-ups and framing.

All they have to believe is that it was reasonably possibly true that he believed the same thing they know to be true from their own experience.

I disagree with you Molly. Life inside those Fortress Communities is safe with very little crime; certainly not comparable to life outside of them. Why do you think that they were established? Google Fortress Community South Africa, it was a well thought out plan that was implemented for a specific purpose - to create a safe living environment for those that can afford it. So like I said, the judges will give no regard to OP fearing a home invasion by a murderous intruder. They will consider his disability and his actions of firing four lethal bullets though.

 

[whiterum]

I started singing it while I was doing the washing up just now ..

Me too doing the ironing ' Sugar baby love, Sugar baby love ' :dance:

 

[molly333]

I disagree with you Molly. Life inside those Fortress Communities is safe with very little crime; certainly not comparable to life outside of them. Why do you think that they were established? Google Fortress Community South Africa, t was a well thought out plan that was implemented for a specific purpose - to create a safe living environment for those that can afford it. So like I said, the judges will give no regard to OP fearing a home invasion by a murderous intruder. They will consider his disability and his actions if firing four lethal bullets though.

Yeah. You hire security and the security people break into your house.

Forgive me if I wouldn't feel safe one day in that place.

 

[jay-jay]

Agree. Even if we give OP the benefit of the doubt that he did not know it was her in the toilet he still acted wrecklessly and at a minimum should be convicted of what here in the US would be something like "manslaughter" or worse.

Yes, and the way I've heard some speak about it, it's almost as if they are talking about the type of accident where someone's tripped over the cat and died as a result of a bump on the head.

And someone even campared him to being brave and in the military which shocked me. If he was in the military and had done something like this he most likely would be court martialed.

A careless wreckless act that results in someones death is usually punishible under the law. Whether it be manslaughter or culpable homicide or something like that.

.. absolutely, even in war there are rules which you have to abide by (Geneva Convention) and you can't just go shooting at people willy nilly.

 

[jay-jay]

It's reasonably possibly true I say
That I thought a burglar broke in
Who was coming to do me in that day
So first I did him in.

.. you missed off the last line of that poem, "Sad for me that I did not know, it was illegal in SA*"


*or the UK, or the USA (all of which rhyme)

 

[luvmygarden]

LOL

I have no idea how men reach those ranges.

They have voice coaches. Ummmmm. Wonder how long it takes to achieve to be so perfect. Lol

 

[BritsKate]

The prosecutor wants to convict him of SA's version of premeditated murder.

It is my understanding he has to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.

Oscar says it is putative self defense. Oscar has to prove this to the standard of reasonably possibly true.

Oscar has met his standard, IMO and Prosecutor has not.

I defer to the atty's on this however.

BBM
How, exactly?

By simply stating he was vulnerable, terrified, afraid, etc?
By not fixing a broken window lock?
By not allowing time for an intruder to escape before opening fire after screaming at said intruder?
By not firing a warning shot?
By not ascertaining who or what was beyond a closed door?
By not conceding to the laws of gun ownership?
By not calling security?
By not pressing a panic button?
By being disabled?
By not reporting someone apparently firing a gun at him to police?
By sleeping with the balcony doors open?
By not securing ladders he knew to be on his property? When he'd done so before?
By not locking windows in rooms currently unoccupied?


We simply have Oscar's testimony with no supporting evidence to bolster it...unless we begin creating hypothetical scenarios to account for the above list. I would expect a list of occasions Oscar has contacted security or police about suspicious activity or suspected intruders and many other people to testify to a history of paranoid, fearful behavior as opposed to a girlfriend and a deleted tweet showing his reactions the night Reeva was shot are contrary to past events. It just isn't enough to simply state 'I was scared' if all the evidence presented, to date, challenges such a stance.

JMO

 

[nastasya]

BBM
How, exactly?

By simply stating he was vulnerable, terrified, afraid, etc?
By not fixing a broken window lock?
By not allowing time for an intruder to escape before opening fire after screaming at said intruder?
By not firing a warning shot?
By not ascertaining who or what was beyond a closed door?
By not conceding to the laws of gun ownership?
By not calling security?
By not pressing a panic button?
By being disabled?
By not reporting someone apparently firing a gun at him to police?
By sleeping with the balcony doors open?
By not securing ladders he knew to be on his property? When he'd done so before?
By not locking windows in rooms currently unoccupied?


We simply have Oscar's testimony with no supporting evidence to bolster it...unless we begin creating hypothetical scenarios to account for the above list. I would expect a list of occasions Oscar has contacted security or police about suspicious activity or suspected intruders and many other people to testify to a history of paranoid, fearful behavior as opposed to a girlfriend and a deleted tweet showing his reactions the night Reeva was shot are contrary to past events. It just isn't enough to simply state 'I was scared' if all the evidence presented, to date, challenges such a stance.

JMO

BIB actually all the physical evidence and witness testimony completely contradicts OP's story.

In fact, his own expert just testified that Reeva fell on the magazine rack, which OP insisted repeatedly did not happen.

OP believes that his own expert is wrong, and that the police carefully lifted up the magazine rack and placed it into the pool of blood beside the toilet.