Trial Discussion Thread #31

[BritsKate]

I don't think it was ever the defense case that the first gunshot was to the head.

Yes. Yes they did. That's where it all started. Then it became Oscar screaming like a woman while also yelling like a man but crying like a woman who was actually Oscar but never screamed at all.

The sequence of shots speaks to whether Steenkamp could have shouted during the shooting. Witnesses have testified to a woman's terrified shrieks, but the defence say she was hit first in the head and therefore could not have made a sound.

The Olympic and Paralympic track star’s defense has argued Reeva Steenkamp was first hit in the head and could not have continued to scream in the early hours of Valentine’s Day 2013, when she was killed at his luxury Pretoria home.

And quite honestly, one of my absolute biggest problems with this DT is that evidence keeps magically changing. It's been a year and they have the actual facts of that night to work with presumably. There should never have been double taps followed by an oops, our bad. And their accounts of the screaming have become just as non-sensical.

JMO

http://www.newvision.co.ug/mobile/Detail.aspx?NewsID=653709&CatID=5
http://universalsports.com/2014/03/04/updates-on-oscar-pistorius-trial/

 

[Irisha]

No one knows yet because that information hasn't yet been presented in court.

Are you pre-judging this test and expert testimony that we haven't yet heard?

Yes! he may be able to high pitch scream, but can he scream like a woman who is facing immediate death from her SO, who's in a violent rage?

 

[fox1lady]

I'm getting wayyyyy too obsessed with scenarios similar(ish) to this one. Just read about a guy that shot two young intruders and claimed he was fearing for his life. Only thing was, his security system had recorded the whole thing... gruesome and bad luck for him!!!

http://www.startribune.com/local/256189861.html

 

[Rumpole]

IIRC Stipps, Burger and Van d Merwe all described screams stopping after 2nd series of bangs. Though d Merwe only heard 4 bangs. Johnson and Dr Stipp said they heard male and female sounds together. The Stipps heard first shots at 2.58 am. Johnson last shots at 3.17 am. Burger hears shouts for help at 3am, tried to phone, heard screams then 4 shots, pause, then 3 more shots. There may be some slight variation here, the separate accounts do suggest what they heard is fairly accurate.

Its not a stretch of the imagination for the time of death to fit with Helen75's account. Though I'm not sure why she thinks this in particular will convict OP. Except that account would mean the final shot came later.

So when were the bat strikes?

Van d Merwe did not testify to any screams. She heard one (female) voice arguing (I don't quite get how just one voice can argue.. but that was her testimony). She then heard 4 explosions (gunshots) at the earlier time, and some time later "crying" which she CONCEDED was OP. I re-listened to her testimony and that seems to have likely been later when there were ambulances and commotion.. but regardless it was after the main event and does seem to have been OP crying (perhaps wailing, translation was an issue)

 

[IfIMay]

No one knows yet because that information hasn't yet been presented in court.

Are you pre-judging this test and expert testimony that we haven't yet heard?

yes. I am. Based on the whole gun shot/jammed/duplicated/music producer fiasco that was the bat/gun tests. I sure am. I have very low expectations from this group of "experts". Adding that OP denied knowing about making such a recording on the stand.

 

[minor4th]

I thought at the beginning they were saying the first shot was to the head which made it impossible for Reeva to scream.

I think people here interpreted it that way, but I don't think the defense was saying it was the first gunshot that hit her in the head (especially since their own expert said otherwise).

I believe what the defense has been arguing all along is that the first SET of shots/bangs/sounds were the gunshots that killed Reeva, and that she could not have been screaming after that first set of shots/bangs

 

[Panda]

I agree with you completely.

The most obvious inferences in this case are IMHO the correct ones.

A model who did yoga goes to 'sleep' in the same clothes, without removing mascara? That on it's own is beyond the realms of the reasonable.
She was 29, not an 18 year old party through the night girl leaving her face paint on.

It might seem small and irrelevant, but to me it's a logical 'red flag' in terms of Oscar's story. And there are so many more - as you have once more pointed out.

Sometimes things really are just what they appear to be IMHO. They never went to bed at all.

Absolutely agree 100%. I find it unlikely she would have slept in shorts for a start. But leaving mascara on, an aspiring model? No way. No way they went to bed. Didn't happen as far as I'm concerned.

 

[kittychi]

why didn't they play ole female Oscar's screams for the witnesses who heard Reeva scream and just ASK THEM? Because they didn't hear OP. (how many times over how long a period did OP try to get to the "right" tone!?)

Exactly. The ONLY way to prove that it was Oscar screaming is for HIM to replicate that screaming. It seems it would be an easy thing for him to do, I am surprised [not] that Roux didn't have him do it.

OP is fighting for his life, after all, he should be able to confirm that it was HIM they heard.

Well, guess what? That is not gonna happen.

If Oscar screams like a woman in court and the witnesses verify that is what they heard, I will send every one on this board $100.00 US.

:winkaway: :razz:

 

[Cherwell]

ALL the witnesses who heard "a woman scream" in this case is just two married couples.. and one of those couples DID only come forward and describe what they heard AFTER seeing news reports etc for weeks. (And they were 200M away, and so unlikely to hear the nuances that they have evolved and embellished their testimony with eg "Blood Curdling")

It is not hard for me to imagine that if I heard a high pitched, anguished "scream" in the night.. I would assume it was a woman. That is the way human perception works. We make some sort of sense out of ambiguous information, based on our experiences and expectations.
It would be more precise to say the witnesses heard screams that to them sounded like a woman. But in the realm of "Reasonable doubt".. OP being the source is at the very least a reasonable alternative explanation. Add to that the fact that it is reasonable to conclude from the State's own evidence that the screams were heard AFTER the shots and so in that case it is not possible it was Reeva. It is logical to infer that it was OP screaming.

Who heard screams after the shots? I remember that someone (Ms Burger?) testified that the screams died away or faded out with the final shot, but I don't recall anyone saying that they heard screams AFTER the shots. Please elucidate.

 

[IfIMay]

Exactly. The ONLY way to prove that it was Oscar screaming is for HIM to replicate that screaming. It seems it would be an easy thing for him to do, I am surprised [not] that Roux didn't have him do it.

OP is fighting for his life, after all, he should be able to confirm that it was HIM they heard.

Well, guess what? That is not gonna happen.

If Oscar screams like a woman in court and the witnesses verify that is what they heard, I will send every one on this board $100.00 US.

:winkaway: :razz:

I prefer cyberbucks. I hear they're awesome and worth getting a killer off of any responsibility. :winkaway: :razz:

 

[minor4th]

Yes. Yes they did. That's where it all started. Then it became Oscar screaming like a woman while also yelling like a man but crying like a woman who was actually Oscar but never screamed at all.





And quite honestly, one of my absolute biggest problems with this DT is that evidence keeps magically changing. It's been a year and they have the actual facts of that night to work with presumably. There should never have been double taps followed by an oops, our bad. And their accounts of the screaming have become just as non-sensical.

JMO

http://www.newvision.co.ug/mobile/Detail.aspx?NewsID=653709&CatID=5
http://universalsports.com/2014/03/04/updates-on-oscar-pistorius-trial/

I know that is what was reported but I really don't remember the defense ever saying this - only that she could not have screamed after she was shot in the head (and that she was shot in the head during the first volley of shots heard by the Stipps)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I did not ever get the impression that was the defense case and I think I've pretty much listened to all of the trial.

 

[nastasya]

ALL the witnesses who heard "a woman scream" in this case is just two married couples.. and one of those couples DID only come forward and describe what they heard AFTER seeing news reports etc for weeks. (And they were 200M away, and so unlikely to hear the nuances that they have evolved and embellished their testimony with eg "Blood Curdling")

It is not hard for me to imagine that if I heard a high pitched, anguished "scream" in the night.. I would assume it was a woman. That is the way human perception works. We make some sort of sense out of ambiguous information, based on our experiences and expectations.
It would be more precise to say the witnesses heard screams that to them sounded like a woman. But in the realm of "Reasonable doubt".. OP being the source is at the very least a reasonable alternative explanation. Add to that the fact that it is reasonable to conclude from the State's own evidence that the screams were heard AFTER the shots and so in that case it is not possible it was Reeva. It is logical to infer that it was OP screaming.

Every witness testified directly to hearing a woman scream followed by gunshots, followed by silence.

There is no reason to infer anything. That's their direct testimony.

OP's direct testimony and BA are filled with inconsistencies and impossibilities. It's reasonable to infer he's lying about what happened when he shot and killed Reeva.

 

[Rumpole]

BIB Actually, Burgher's lived 177m away.

Dr Stipp heard intermingled male and female voices and insisted it was a woman screaming under cross-examination. This goes beyond a 'cultural bias.'

Stipp is a medical professional and he's probably heard through many years vastly different types of screams of pain, in varying scales of anguish, from men and women through his practice and training. If he says he heard a women's scream, I put more weight on his opinion.

If people want to talk about embellishing testimony I think it would be really interesting to compare the few statements of Burgers, Stipp's with the amazingly long list of seeming blatant lies, (Dear Glock - did you know your guns fire magically beyond physics and design! ) inconsistencies and story changes by Pistorius - throughout his testimony.

In fact I think I'll try and do a post about Pistorius lying and version changing on the stand next.

Apologies all in advance for length of next post...there are just too many.

I am not talking about "cultural bias"? Whatever that means. :scared:

I am talking about mis-perception. That can persists even IF you KNOW you are wrong (ref any example of an "illusion")

Stipps admitted to ONE misperception himself. This is not an uncommon feature of human perception. He was convinced (totally) that both sets of "Loud Bangs" were gunshots, (and he has the noted "military experience"). Yet CLEARLY he was WRONG in his perception of one of the sets of bangs. I am certainly NOT accusing Stipps of lying... just of being WRONG. Just of being human.

<modsnip>

 

[Panda]

I think OP or Sam Taylor testified that there was one time when OP heard a noise and woke Sam to ask her if she heard it. It turned out to be his dogs downstairs, knocking things over. So it sounds like they were kept in the house.

They are probably lucky he didn't shoot them, that night.

In my opinion, he didn't shoot them because he knew exactly what he was doing and who he was shooting.

 

[Irisha]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisha
Where? Who moved them and when? I missed that testimony and no ladder in the photo of outside. TIA
------------------------

Minor4th
Quote:
The court was also shown pictures of a stack of ladders in the yard near the downstairs lounge window.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/03/17/the-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-day-11

That does not prove a ladder was ever against the condo leading up to the bathroom window. At the time the police took a photo NO ladder was leaning against the outside wall. So now someone moved the ladder too? [modsnip]

 

[Rumpole]

Every witness testified directly to hearing a woman scream followed by gunshots, followed by silence.

There is no reason to infer anything. That's their direct testimony.

OP's direct testimony and BA are filled with inconsistencies and impossibilities. It's reasonable to infer he's lying about what happened when he shot and killed Reeva.

Look at ALL the state witnesses, the Gestalt of what was presented.

There were GUNSHOTS ---> Screams ----> Cricket bat

That sequence fits EVERY State witness testimony. <modsnip>

 

[Really?]

.. also, as far as I can make out, it wouldn't even slam into the frame of the window on the LH side .. the three windows seem to be staggered (not sure how to explain this) .. ok, you've got the one on the LH side which is innermost and slides across to the right over the centre panel on the bathroom side from what I can make out of it (can't seem to find a really clear, crisp image) .. then you've got a fixed centre panel, then you've got the panel on the RH side which slides across to the left on the outside over the centre panel. I'm presuming there must be some kind of mechanism to stop the window sliding any further, but it's not a frame and it's not the other (LH) window.

The other thing that never rang true to me was why OP thought an intruder would even think they would be able to get through a closed bathroom window in the first place, without having to smash the glass to either release a catch or undo a lock or a bolt .. they simply wouldn't bother, imo, and would gain access downstairs. Or, the only way they would bother to gain access through a bathroom window would be if it was already open, but it wasn't already open, not in OP's testimony it wasn't, anyway. So on all counts, the 'intruder - hearing the bathroom window slide open' story fails. No, 'an intruder' is not the immediate thing anybody is ever going to think if they hear a bathroom window opening (that's if it even did, anyway, which I very much doubt .. I think OP opened it later) .. first it would flash across their mind that no-one could open that window from the outside anyway and second it would flash across their mind that the most likely cause of the noise is the person who is sharing that room with you. BS, the lot of it!

Good point about the window in the bathroom. How would....better yet why would a burgler/intruder assume they could just slide the window open........heck with all the open windows that night in the hood.....why pick a closed one????

 

[Really?]

I've got a feeling it might be something to do with what was on those clothes .. I've got some thoughts on that but not sure about voicing them yet.

aw come on...why wait??.....spill it.

hi OP if you are reading.....:jail:

 

[nastasya]

I just had an epiphany about what OP's story reminds me of...

It's like a poorly photoshopped picture, with pieces from different scenes cut and pasted on top of a backdrop in an effort to make him look innocent.

"Witnesses were wrong, it was me screaming like a woman" pasted over the story of going to the deck for the fans pasted over the story of breaking the already opened bedroom door with his shoulder pasted over knowing Reeva didn't eat anything pasted over covering the little blue light with the jeans and over the whole thing is pasted over the big picture of the phantom intruder climbing up the ladder, breaking into his bathroom, and immediately hiding in the toilet.

Nope. Total (modsnip]

 

[patCee]

Van d Merwe did not testify to any screams. She heard one (female) voice arguing (I don't quite get how just one voice can argue.. but that was her testimony). She then heard 4 explosions (gunshots) at the earlier time, and some time later "crying" which she CONCEDED was OP. I re-listened to her testimony and that seems to have likely been later when there were ambulances and commotion.. but regardless it was after the main event and does seem to have been OP crying (perhaps wailing, translation was an issue)

I did say Van d Merwe only heard 4 bangs at about 3 am. The screaming would have included Johnson, not her, my mistake. My thinking was that the witness accounts would likely tie in with Helen75's opinion that RS death was likely to have been after the last bangs/shots. Bearing in mind that Stipp and Burger heard 2 lots of bangs/shots, it does raise the issue, for me, of which were the bat strikes, which were the shots.