Trial Discussion Thread #31

[steveml]

We're not entirely certain that the gun was cocked when it was found.

Col van Rensburg said that while he and colleagues were collecting evidence on the morning of February 14, 2013, shortly after the shooting, he heard the sound of a gun being cocked behind him.

 

[shane13]

I posted this a few days ago.
But maybe some now did not see it?

Gunshot 1000 times louder than bat strike, says forensics consultant
Something I've said here for a long time in different terms (such as gunshot incorporating sonic booms, etc}

He says "sound made by pistol shot is effectively 1000 times louder than a bat on door."At circa 2:00 minute mark, but entire interview is revealing.

Oscar Pistorius Trial: eNCA interviews David Klatzow on Oscar trial proceedings - YouTube

 

[sleuth-d-]

My issue with giving the scene too much weight is twofold: First, I'm not sure it can be relied on as there is subsequent evidence of a degree of general police carelessness and unprofessionalism. Secondly, can Oscar really say with certainty what happened in those moments after the shooting when he claims he went back into the bedroom? Nel's job is to pin him to precise movements that he may not in fact be able to accurately recall. Who knows what happened to the duvet and the jeans for example when he was, according to his version, in the early stages of realizing what he'd done. Did he knock the duvet off the bed? Kick the jeans a little on the floor as he was going by to get to the balcony? Who knows. These little things (and they are little things) would matter more if the big things didn't tell a different story.

nel spent a while getting op to say where the duvet was [on the bed]
- it is on the floor in the photo.
nel spent a while getting op to say where the fans were [at the corner of the bed - where the duvet is in the photo].

the line of blood spatter had to happen post shooting. there is a direct line of blood across the duvet, and across the carpet [op agreed to this]

which shows the duvet was unmoved after the event.

exposing both the lie of where op said the duvet was, and exposing the lie of where op said he moved the fans to.

genius.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Police investigators have to be above reproach. If they are not, who or what evidence can you trust?

Throw the case out of court. Evidence destroyed and gone missing.

[I'm not in a good mood today].

That may well be the case but I still regard the removal of evidence from a crime scene to be just as bigger deal and should be being dealt with as a serious matter as well
JMOO

 

[molly333]

nel spent a while getting op to say where the duvet was [on the bed]
- it is on the floor in the photo.
nel spent a while getting op to say where the fans were [at the corner of the bed - where the duvet is in the photo].

the line of blood spatter had to happen post shooting. there is a direct line of blood across the duvet, and across the carpet [op agreed to this]

which shows the duvet was unmoved after the event.

exposing both the lie of where op said the duvet was, and exposing the lie of where op said he moved the fans to.

genius.

I'd like to know if there was blood under the duvet.

Bet 5 cyberbucks there was!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

patCee 1275

Time lines, blood sprays, bat/shots, guns, ammo, door/mag

rack, keys, lights on/off, phone records, crime scene, screams/yells, conspiracy theories, prostheses/stumps, food, urine, cards, panic button, dogs, bed, clothes,
windows, fans, witness' etc. etc.

Am I allowed to add? Security, neighbours, family, friends, attys, police incl. General ..., paramedics etc. etc.

It's all full of 'yeah buts' and I'm beginning to feel I'm in the Truman Show. That there must be 2 trials, one we've watched/followed for the past, however many weeks, that was televised, and another that's being going on behind the scenes with evidence we've not seen. I know I'm lost because I'm beginning to think that RS wasn't killed in the toilet at all.

Phew! glad to get that off my chest.

My head is spinning. :scared:
Have we still to look for something at all, if everything will be developed to a big conspiracy?

 

[molly333]

That may well be the case but I still regard the removal of evidence from a crime scene to be just as bigger deal and should be being dealt with as a serious matter as well
JMOO

Sure. But, again, can't do that without cooperation of the police.

 

[TorisMom003]

I'm still waiting on Van Rensburg to state in court that the security guards of the estate where OP lived would break into homes and steal things. I haven't come to that part yet. Was it during Nel's direct examination of him or was it during Roux's cross of him?

 

[crasshopper]

BBM - oh, really? Why wasn't it found when they were searched then?

Logic dictates it's because someone else took it - someone who knew they wouldn't be searched.

I sort of hate to belabor this but wasn't there a policeman who was a friend of OP's family on the scene?

I agree secreting OP's phone out of there is far more important.

 

[sleuth-d-]

It is astonishing that so much attention might be put towards investigating a missing watch when the removal of vital evidence ie phone from a crime scene seems to be being ignored .

yes. i agree.
especially if the fact that said phone arrived back with no information on it - as has been suggested here - is true.

i mean, [a] why take a phone from the scene that contained no info, or if you are going to take a phone from a scene, how 'obvious/ridiculous' to return it totally wiped

 

[patCee]

i would add to the panel removal:
cracking the right hand door panel [i.e. post shooting] and removal of the door panels would not necessarily involve loud sound imo.

just trying to fit witness reports into the timeline. i have tried with op version, and struggled - partly due to the ridiculous fan/balcony/lack of immediate call to netcare or police, but especially re: the screams after the shots.

Yes, Vermuelan demonstrated that the end of the cricket bat fitted the crack in the door. Also that, in his view, the bat had then been inserted into the crack to prise the panel out. So not necessarily making a loud noise. He thought this and another crack had been caused by hitting the door with the bat. There is a question by some on here about when the door was hit with the bat in the context of the bangs witnesses heard. Hitting the door and prising open the panel may not have been done at the same time.

 

[Viper]

We're not entirely certain that the gun was cocked when it was found.

Col van Rensburg said that while he and colleagues were collecting evidence on the morning of February 14, 2013, shortly after the shooting, he heard the sound of a gun being cocked behind him.

BIB. We do know for certain that it was found cocked and ready to fire. OP himself told the court that he left it that way after he killed Reeva, and he said that he was running around the bedroom with it and shoulder barging the WC door with it in that status. Later he set it down on the floor in that same status.

 

[Emz73]

The detective actually stated the price but it was in another currency.

So we could find out the value if we wanted to do some work.

I know it was expensive because of his attitude about it.

If it's gifted to Oscar, it's part of his compensation. It's not a free gift.

That detective was a sweetheart and you could see his frustration at what he has to work with.

So you MADE $50.000 up? It came out of your head?

Compensation for what??

 

[lithgow1]

My issue with giving the scene too much weight is twofold: First, I'm not sure it can be relied on as there is subsequent evidence of a degree of general police carelessness and unprofessionalism. Secondly, can Oscar really say with certainty what happened in those moments after the shooting when he claims he went back into the bedroom? Nel's job is to pin him to precise movements that he may not in fact be able to accurately recall. Who knows what happened to the duvet and the jeans for example when he was, according to his version, in the early stages of realizing what he'd done. Did he knock the duvet off the bed? Kick the jeans a little on the floor as he was going by to get to the balcony? Who knows. These little things (and they are little things) would matter more if the big things didn't tell a different story.

Thanks for the response. Re your first point I do think they will carry much weight so we'll just have to wait and see on that one.

Re the downplaying of OP's ability to accurately recall, he was ADAMANT that the duvet was on the bed. He had to be, or else how did he avoid becoming entangled in it when he ran out on to the balcony? So it was by no means a case of a hazy memory: he was arguing with Nel over these things. Ervery change he made was needed to make his version possible, That's possible, not probable. So if that's where the fan and duvet were when the investigators first walked in then OP and his 'version' is gone on those two little things alone. OP got visibly upset when being pressed on all this. I think he may have cried. So IMO calling them 'little things' underplays their threat to OP - he certainly seemed to realise how much they matter.

 

[shane13]

I sort of hate to belabor this but wasn't there a policeman who was a friend of OP's family on the scene?

I agree secreting OP's phone out of there is far more important.

Do you get a chance to follow my posts C? Anyway for you, this was Brig Gen Gerard Labuschagne,PhD.
I deduced that he's friend with Micki P, Op's aunt.

 

[patCee]

patCee 1275

Time lines, blood sprays, bat/shots, guns, ammo, door/mag

rack, keys, lights on/off, phone records, crime scene, screams/yells, conspiracy theories, prostheses/stumps, food, urine, cards, panic button, dogs, bed, clothes,
windows, fans, witness' etc. etc.

Am I allowed to add? Security, neighbours, family, friends, attys, police incl. General ..., paramedics etc. etc.

It's all full of 'yeah buts' and I'm beginning to feel I'm in the Truman Show. That there must be 2 trials, one we've watched/followed for the past, however many weeks, that was televised, and another that's being going on behind the scenes with evidence we've not seen. I know I'm lost because I'm beginning to think that RS wasn't killed in the toilet at all.

Phew! glad to get that off my chest.

My head is spinning. :scared:
Have we still to look for something at all, if everything will be developed to a big conspiracy?

There's no point in looking for an answer from me, I've lost the plot.:ufo:

 

[sleuth-d-]

I'd like to know if there was blood under the duvet.

Bet 5 cyberbucks there was!

the blood spots followed a line across the duvet and continued in a line on the carpet. nobody disputed this in the courtroom. [op or roux]

did you see the photo and the zoom in session?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Police investigators have to be above reproach. If they are not, who or what evidence can you trust?

Throw the case out of court. Evidence destroyed and gone missing.

[I'm not in a good mood today].

BBM

You are lucky: not being Oscar and not having Valentines day ...

 

[molly333]

So you MADE $50.000 up? It came out of your head?

Compensation for what??

I asked if it was worth 50,000.

Detective said what it was worth in another currency.

Compensation for sponsoring their product.

 

[molly333]

the blood spots followed a line across the duvet and continued in a line on the carpet. nobody disputed this in the courtroom. [op or roux]

did you see the photo and the zoom in session?

I did see that portion of the testimony. I wasn't convinced.

I'd like to look under that duvet, please.