Trial Discussion Thread #32

[SallyLu]

Great idea to look at that night from Reeva's point of view according to OP.

According to OP...

Reeva was watching OP walk around to bring in the fans. She decided to get up to pee.

She grabbed her cell phone. Maybe she grabbed the keys to the toilet door, or maybe OP left the keys on the inside of the toilet all the time. Or maybe they were on the bathroom counter.

She walked into the bathroom and opened the bathroom window, holding her phone in her hand.

She then entered the toilet. She heard OP screaming for somebody to get out of the house and OP telling her to call the police.

She immediately decided to slam the door closed and keep quiet. She locked the door and stood listening as OP approached the door screaming "Get the fvck out of my house! Get the fvck out of my house!"

She stood facing the door, not calling to OP, not attempting to dial the police, doing nothing.

Next thing she knew she heard a gun shot and immediately crumbled to the ground. Next she heard another shot as her arm almost got ripped off, then everything went black.

All that because a minute earlier she decided to get up to pee in the middle of the night.

Thank you to TorisMom003 and Nastasya for putting this into perspective.

 

[kittychi]

Oscar did pretty much obliterate Nel's attempted point on that one.

I think his clothes that she was wearing WERE her pajamas. That would also explain why her jeans were on the floor inside out - she had changed out of them to put on her sleep clothes.

...or she was using OP's clothes to do yoga.

 

[liesbeth]

Hi, new poster here. I've been enjoying reading the various theories and viewpoints, including the leftfield and unlikely

Does anyone know where the Johnson/Burger's house is relative to OP's house? I understand it's around ~180m away but in which direction?

I believe it is somewhere around the red circle.

Welcome to WS.

 

[Greater Than]

Yes, and most people who shoot at an intruder probably actually SEE someone, or at least something more threatening than a closed door before they start blazing away.

Exactly. And IMO this is why, in part, his putative self defense claim doesn't fly. For it to be putative self defense, the perceived threat of death or great bodily harm must feel so real that any other reasonable person under the same circumstances would have believed the danger could only be avoided by using the same deadly force OP used.

 

[crasshopper]

bbm - I'm trailing again so my apologies if this has been addressed. I was wondering, after brain death, does the heart not require some form of manipulation(cpr, massage, electrical stimulae) to continue beating after the brain no longer gives it instruction, as well as the heart also needing some form of replacement blood/plasma to stay functional if there is large blood loss(either external or internal)?

Not in many cases of "brain death".
As for when coupled with concomitant blood loss, the heart will eventually succumb to hypoxemia from decreased blood flow/perfusion and lack of breathing and eventually arrest.


I'm tired, apologies for the brevity of the above...

 

[Karmady]

Yes, that's right, thank you. It was never in doubt that OP fired four times. The only thing in doubt is his reason for firing those shots. At a closed door no less.

Based on the recent opinion from the SA court regarding the firing of this gun multiple times without intent to fire multiple times, I question whether the court can possibly find intent on that basis given the less-than-a-month-old authority to the direct contrary. Carmelita is still looking to see why she thinks the two guns are different -- so I'm waiting for that.

 

[crasshopper]

No, the jeans inside the house were never proven to be Reeva's. The jeans outside have been ignored so even though they look like women's jeans, we don't know for sure.

I agree with Reeva's mom. Reeva was to slim for the jeans in the bedroom to be hers. As a slim woman myself, I could look at them and tell that there is no way they would fit her without sliding off of her.

MOO

Yes, Reeva's mother said something of the effect of they looked a little bit large to be Reeva's, IIRC.

Has it ever been confirmed that the inside-out jeans were indeed Reeva's? During this part of OP's testimony, didn't June mouth the words, "Those aren't Reeva's jeans" or something to that effect? Am I misremembering??
Why would she have jeans on the bedroom floor and jeans outside the bathroom window?
:dunno:

 

[liesbeth]

Unfortunately I can't seem to get the time to follow these threads :tantrum: my partner and I have to fly to the UK next week because his father's dying and I've got a barrel load of work to get finished before we leave ... one of the pitfalls of running your own business.

Anyway, I had a quick look on updated news on the case on my phone last night, and thought this may be of interest to some of you ...

http://www.health24.com/Lifestyle/Man/Your-life/Blood-spatter-analysis-how-it-works-20140307

Hope I've posted the link correctly.

I haven't had a chance to read it through properly myself, but from what I did see looked interesting. Apologies if it's already been posted, I just haven't had time to read all the posts. :banghead:

Panda, this is a great link. Thank you so much.

 

[minor4th]

Based on the recent opinion from the SA court regarding the firing of this gun multiple times without intent to fire multiple times, I question whether the court can possibly find intent on that basis given the less-than-a-month-old authority to the direct contrary. Carmelita is still looking to see why she thinks the two guns are different -- so I'm waiting for that.

That case is consistent with other SA cases dealing with putative self defense. If there's a genuine belief by the accused that he's shooting in self defense to prevent harm to himself or others, then there is no intent for murder.

 

[liesbeth]

Based on the recent opinion from the SA court regarding the firing of this gun multiple times without intent to fire multiple times, I question whether the court can possibly find intent on that basis given the less-than-a-month-old authority to the direct contrary. Carmelita is still looking to see why she thinks the two guns are different -- so I'm waiting for that.

Do you think that OP's future will be decided by the fact that he fired 4 times?

 

[crasshopper]

....

Either way - I cannot fathom that both sides would accept that those were Reeva's jeans if there was some doubt over that.

Maybe they were 'boyfriend' jeans. They tend to run a little larger.

My little sisters keep me apprised of these fashion trends.

 

[liesbeth]

That case is consistent with other SA cases dealing with putative self defense. If there's a genuine belief by the accused that he's shooting in self defense to prevent harm to himself or others, then there is no intent for murder.

Thank you, minor4th.

State vs De Oliveira. Oliveira saw men at his gate and shot through the open window. Yet he refused to testify in court. He was found guilty of murder.

That's why OP's performance on the stand is so much more important than the fact that he shot 4 times.

 

[TorisMom003]

That case is consistent with other SA cases dealing with putative self defense. If there's a genuine belief by the accused that he's shooting in self defense to prevent harm to himself or others, then there is no intent for murder.

In that case he had already been assaulted by the men that he shot, plus threatened after that. It also helped that he had eye witnesses that not only saw what happened but that also tried to intervene on his behalf.

Unfortunately I don't see that outcome for OP. There was no clear sign of danger towards OP's life. Shooting into the closed door of a small room without any kind of threat towards the shooter is an intent for murder, IMO.

MOO

 

[Viper]

Crasshopper how tired are you tonight? A thought crossed my mind about reactive hyperemia and hyperemia. I know it is a stretch, but I am curious! LOL!!!

 

[TorisMom003]

Maybe they were 'boyfriend' jeans. They tend to run a little larger.

My little sisters keep me apprised of these fashion trends.

Could be. However I doubt the jeans outside were OP's. Most guys are not going to wear a thin white belt with a pair of jeans. But the State never brought up whose jeans they were or why they were outside. I still have my doubts about the jeans in the bedroom belonging to Reeva.

MOO

 

[TorisMom003]

They never showed a picture that was close up on the jeans knee area, did they? When they were right side out that is.

This would possibly tell us if they belonged to OP or not. I noticed in one of the interviews he did that his pros. legs stretch out the material in the knee area and if those jeans are as worn as I think they are it would more than likely be noticeable if there was a worn mark there.

MOO

 

[liesbeth]

Could be. However I doubt the jeans outside were OP's. Most guys are not going to wear a thin white belt with a pair of jeans. But the State never brought up whose jeans they were or why they were outside. I still have my doubts about the jeans in the bedroom belonging to Reeva.

MOO

She mentioned doing some washing. Could it have been left outside to dry and then the dogs dragged it around?

 

[TorisMom003]

She mentioned doing some washing. Could it have been left outside to dry and then the dogs dragged it around?

I don't think she would wash them with the belt still through the belt loops. Possible I guess but highly unlikely.

MOO

ETA: Now I could see the inside out jeans being a pair that had recently been washed. They are dark colored jeans so washing them inside out would help prevent them from "bleeding" onto other clothes.

 

[Karmady]

Do you think that OP's future will be decided by the fact that he fired 4 times?

Based on the opinion we're talking about, he wouldn't be found to have fired four times. Just once. I think his future will be decided by whether the state can prove he had no subjective fear of an intruder.

jmo

 

[TorisMom003]

Based on the opinion we're talking about, he wouldn't be found to have fired four times. Just once. I think his future will be decided by whether the state can prove he had no subjective fear of an intruder.

jmo

OP's gun was tested, if I am not mistaken, and it takes 4 pulls of the trigger to fire 4 bullets. There was also a break in between the first shot and the second shot. That would be impossible with a gun that fired all 4 with one pull of the trigger.