Trial Discussion Thread #32

[minor4th]

There's another big problem with OP's version. During his testimony he claims that Reeva was not asleep when he woke up to move the fans and close the balcony doors and curtain. Now we know there was ladder outside under the balcony from earlier that day. OP claims that he thought the "intruder" moved the ladder to the bathroom window and climbed up it. Since Reeva was awake, she would have heard the metal ladder being moved. Reeva would also wake OP up to tell him what she heard so that they could do what they needed to do to stay safe. Moving a metal ladder, setting it against the house and climbing up metal rungs would be much louder than a window being opened in the bathroom.

OP painted himself into a corner when he changed his version from Reeva being asleep to Reeva speaking to him when he woke to ask him if he couldn't sleep. Perhaps OP should have thought about the noise the ladder would have made and added to his version that Reeva said something about hearing that noise. After all, Reeva is no longer alive to say that he is lying. But then again, the ladder was not against the house so perhaps he thought it better to not say that Reeva heard anything after all.

MOO

I don't see this as a problem - Oscar never said he heard the ladder being moved I don't think. In fact, I don't know that there was any testimony that Oscar even know exactly where the ladders were; he only knew that some ladders had been left there. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

 

[Cherwell]

I believe that Nest is forgetting the hip wound. There was definitely blood coming from that wound and since she was sitting (so to speak) on that wound with her head over the toilet, the I would say that the blood on the floor beside the magazine rack came from that hip wound. Also remember that Reeva's arm was up with her hand trying to protect her head. Her arm would fall more towards the toilet instead of down onto the floor.

There's also a straight edge to the bloodstain on the seat which may show where Reeva's arm was. Anyway that's how it struck me (not an expert).

 

[Viper]

I believe that Nest is forgetting the hip wound. There was definitely blood coming from that wound and since she was sitting (so to speak) on that wound with her head over the toilet, the I would say that the blood on the floor beside the magazine rack came from that hip wound. Also remember that Reeva's arm was up with her hand trying to protect her head. Her arm would fall more towards the toilet instead of down onto the floor.

MOO

Here's the deal, a severed artery is not a simple thing that can be dismissed as having spurted a few times in the WC or the bathroom or the stairway. I know many here are enamored by highly technical posts that look very pretty and seem to explain away why there is only one true blood pool, the one in the WC, and why it miraculously took Reeva, who had no brain function and no respiratory function, nine (9) minutes to finally bleed to death and die when her heart stopped beating downstairs at 3:25-3:28. But a severed artery does not just calmly self seal in a short period of time, it gushes blood with every single heartbeat; and Reeva had more than one severed artery, there was another severed artery in her head. So she died very quickly in the WC, not nine (9) minutes later downstairs.

Nest attended the autopsy. So his making a determination that the blood pool at Reeva's right hip must be attributable to the severed artery in her arm is likely due to him hearing Dr. Saymaan discuss the hip injury during the autopsy.

 

[Cherwell]

I don't see this as a problem - Oscar never said he heard the ladder being moved I don't think. In fact, I don't know that there was any testimony that Oscar even know exactly where the ladders were; he only knew that some ladders had been left there. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

The point being that if there really was an intruder coming through the bathroom window, then you would expect Reeva to hear the ladder being moved and placed against the wall. Since he said she was awake.

 

[TorisMom003]

I don't see this as a problem - Oscar never said he heard the ladder being moved I don't think. In fact, I don't know that there was any testimony that Oscar even know exactly where the ladders were; he only knew that some ladders had been left there. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

No OP didn't say anything about hearing the ladder being moved. He also never said anything about Reeva hearing the ladder being moved. That's the problem. He claims that Reeva was awake so if an intruder had moved the ladder to get to the bathroom window, Reeva would have heard it. OP didn't think about that apparently. But then OP overlooks a lot of things if they don't involve him specifically.

MOO

 

[Cherwell]

Bringing this from the previous thread

Originally Posted by Kaly99
On the timing, yes I agree, that's certainly one of the things (along with the stomach contents) that bothers me about the defence case. I must admit I haven't looked at it in much detail yet, except what I've read on here. So here are a couple of questions for anyone who might know: firstly, doesn't OP HAVE to be wrong about Reeva breathing when he found her, regardless of whether the shots came first or second? If she only took two or three breaths, then surely she can't have been breathing by the time he got to her, even if it only took, say, 30 seconds. Second, and in some ways a similar question, isn't it also very likely her heart stopped beating before she was taken downstairs?

If the above points are correct (i.e. Reeva stopped breathing and her heart stopped beating while she was still in the bathroom), is there still a problem for the defence about how long Reeva was alive after the shots?

I'm not a medical professional, so this may be a stupid question.

Could Reeva's "two or three breaths" (as per Prof. Saayman) have taken longer than a few seconds?
I ask because I have sat with people as they were dying, and know that final breaths can be very long drawn out.

Perhaps the medics here can advise.

 

[Nausicaa]

He's not asking the court to rule he shot in self-defense.

He now denies shooting in self-defense. He says the gun went off and it wasn't his intention to fire at the door.

Wasn't sure if I wanted to buy into this one Nastasya, but since you force me I must say that I disagree with almost everyone, from both sides, about the alleged impossibility of advancing two different defences for the same act.

OP surprised everyone by refusing to affirm in court that he was acting deliberately in self-defence. He clearly switched to the idea of having no recollection of any voluntary decision in the matter at all - what I have called temporary zombification.

But I do not regard it as at all obvious that if the court thinks he is lying with regard to his temporary zombification it cannot revert to the self-defence interpretation.

I grant that both defences cannot simultaneously be true and can only with great difficulty be simultaneously advanced by counsel for the defence, but the court remains entirely free. The decision to reject his testimony about not having fired deliberately at all or with any intention of shooting anyone does not oblige the court to conclude that he is therefore guilty of murder.

The court may reason that even if he did act in self-defence he could be too frightened to admit this: perjury is a serious crime but well short of murder.

Now my personal view is that Pistorius or whoever is advising him understands this perfectly well. Hence by refusing to agree any of Nel's formulations of the self-defence argument, he is in a certain sense able to have his cake and eat it.

OP in my view is going all out for the option of walking free from court, which can only be achieved by his argument that he lost all volitional freedom. But he is not ruling out as second best the self-defence argument. He knows that as self-defence his actions were highly reprehensible as they grossly surpassed what was reasonably called for in the circumstances, but he also knows that manslaughter (or SA equivalent) is a lot less bad than murder.

Hence in answering his temporarily muted self-defence case I do not think I am resurrecting the dodo. This may become clearer when we hear Roux's summing up.

 

[TorisMom003]

Here's the deal, a severed artery is not a simple thing that can be dismissed as having spurted a few times in the WC or the bathroom or the stairway. I know many here are enamored by highly technical posts that look very pretty and seem to explain away why there is only one true blood pool, the one in the WC, and why it miraculously took Reeva, who had no brain function and no respiratory function, nine (9) minutes to finally bleed to death and die when her heart stopped beating downstairs at 3:25-3:28. But a severed artery does not just calmly self seal in a short period of time, it gushes blood with every single heartbeat; and Reeva had more than one severed artery, there was another severed artery in her head. So she died very quickly in the WC, not nine (9) minutes later downstairs.

Nest attended the autopsy. So his making a determination that the blood pool at Reeva's right hip must be attributable to the severed artery in her arm is likely due to him hearing Dr. Saymaan discuss the hip injury during the autopsy.

My point was, that pool of blood could not have come from just the arm wound. Her hip was shot, was in the spot on the floor where the blood was, so some if not most of that blood on the floor had to have come from her hip. However, the post I responded to made it sound as if only her arm wound caused that pool of blood on the floor. That is why I said that apparently Nest forgot about the hip wound.

Big words and such don't impress me. Like others, I am using my own common sense to come to my conclusions. Sorry if that doesn't impress anyone but that really isn't my goal anyway.

MOO

 

[Nausicaa]

It has a capacity of 17 rounds plus 1 in the chamber, so 18 bullets in his Taurus PT92.

On a side note, I'm surprised that Taurus has not issued a statement to refute Dixon's claim that a firearm they manufactured misfired so many times straight out of the box!!! But then I haven't looked for it either, I'll be right back. :smile:

What about refuting Pistorius's claim that their product is only intended to use hollow-nosed ammunition?

 

[Suthrnqt]

I don't see this as a problem - Oscar never said he heard the ladder being moved I don't think. In fact, I don't know that there was any testimony that Oscar even know exactly where the ladders were; he only knew that some ladders had been left there. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Wouldn't the ladder being propped up against the side of the house make noise? I would think more noise than a window sliding open, kwim? Also, if an armed intruder did utilize the ladder, where did he put his weapon while climbing up?
I realize OP didn't testify to a noisy ladder...so how did the intruder enter the 2nd floor window? Kind of like Reeva going to the toilet
w/o OP seeing her. Lots of teleporting going on in the house that night. :dunno:

 

[steveml]

It appears OP's not the only one who shoots an alleged intruder 4 times...

Link

 

[TorisMom003]

Wouldn't the ladder being propped up against the side of the house make noise? I would think more noise than a window sliding open, kwim? Also, if an armed intruder did utilize the ladder, where did he put his weapon while climbing up?
I realize OP didn't testify to a noisy ladder...so how did the intruder enter the 2nd floor window? Kind of like Reeva going to the toilet
w/o OP seeing her. Lots of teleporting going on in the house that night. :dunno:

Spiderman comes to mind.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Spiderman comes to mind.

Shhhhs. Don't give OP & his DT any ideas.

 

[TorisMom003]

It appears OP's not the only one who shoots an alleged intruder 4 times...

Link

Not even close to being comparable IMO. The wife asked for him to identify himself, he didn't. He also was using a freaking blowtorch to open the gate instead of knocking on the door or phoning his wife. The wife was home alone when he came to the house.

OP was in the bed, next to Reeva (according to him), did not ask that she identify herself, heard nothing other than a "window being opened" and a toilet door being "slammed shut".

OP also fired a "kill shot" to Reeva's head, the wife fired into the stomach and chest.

MOO

 

[sorrell skye]

I don't own a firearm myself, but I have several friends who either own firearms or who go to a shooting range & rent firearms to shoot at the range.

Among these friends who talk to me about their firearms experiences, the subject of 'limp wristing' has come up in past conversations. They've explained to me that limp wristing can cause a semi-automatic handgun to malfunction (jam).

After hearing OP's testimony about how he held his arm & hand as he approached the bathroom & prior to shooting, I've wondered how he could have possibly fired 4 rounds through the toilet door without his gun malfunctioning (jamming).

Seeking feedback from anyone here who has experience in shooting a semi-automatic pistol.

 

[Nausicaa]

Not even close to being comparable IMO. The wife asked for him to identify himself, he didn't. He also was using a freaking blowtorch to open the gate instead of knocking on the door or phoning his wife. The wife was home alone when he came to the house.

OP was in the bed, next to Reeva (according to him), did not ask that she identify herself, heard nothing other than a "window being opened" and a toilet door being "slammed shut".

OP also fired a "kill shot" to Reeva's head, the wife fired into the stomach and chest.

MOO

The point about Reeva being theoretically in bed next to him has always been decisive for me. If I am woken by hearing a suspicious noise in the night I reach out my left arm about one foot or eighteen inches to see if my wife is there next to me before going to take any action. It is quick, easy, instinctive and has no disadvantages.

 

[Giles]

The point about Reeva being theoretically in bed next to him has always been decisive for me. If I am woken by hearing a suspicious noise in the night I reach out my left arm about one foot or eighteen inches to see if my wife is there next to me before going to take any action. It is quick, easy, instinctive and has no disadvantages.

According to OP, he wasn't in bed when he heard the noise!

 

[sleuth-d-]

re: roux cross on stipp, re window...

imo he appears to lead dr stipp into saying the window was open here... 31:00

also: roux: 'op had no shirt on' [i didn't realise this]

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Friday 7 March 2014, Session 1 - YouTube

 

[Nausicaa]

According to OP, he wasn't in bed when he heard the noise!

But the gun was under the bed so only a tiny adjustment is needed to the analogy - right ?

 

[TorisMom003]

I don't own a firearm myself, but I have several friends who either own firearms or who go to a shooting range & rent firearms to shoot at the range.

Among these friends who talk to me about their firearms experiences, the subject of 'limp wristing' has come up in past conversations. They've explained to me that limp wristing can cause a semi-automatic handgun to malfunction (jam).

After hearing OP's testimony about how he held his arm & hand as he approached the bathroom & prior to shooting, I've wondered how he could have possibly fired 4 rounds through the toilet door without his gun malfunctioning (jamming).

Seeking feedback from anyone here who has experience in shooting a semi-automatic pistol.

Easy answer, he's lying about his firing stance when he shot Reeva. Watch the watermelon video and it shows how OP was standing when he shot Reeva.

MOO