Trial Discussion Thread #32

[Cherwell]

Perhaps it would have been prudent if Oscar hadn't already invited a whole party of people to contaminate the crime scene before the police even got there.

Has it been confirmed that they didn't search the entire house? [/sceptical]

 

[Lyra500]

In the US, judges are bound by precedent. Presumably SA courts are the same (although I haven't looked it up yet). In that case, the court will be bound to find that, consistent with its decision last month, the trigger was pulled once.

Unless of course someone can show that the guns in the prior case and this case are different. So far I've got that they're 9 mm semi-automatics. jmo

I thought a semi automatic still required the trigger to be pulled four times,not just once.

 

[Lyra500]

OP's gun is being compared to a similar one in a different case where the judge down graded the killer's conviction because although it was determined that he had over reacted by shooting the victim 3 times thus being convicted of the harsher charge of murder, it was because his gun fired 3 shots in a row due to being unable to pause. ie.it was modified to "burst" 3 in a row. So he ended up getting the CH instead... iirc all the details.:/

So this is not actually an identical gun then as suggested in the post By Karmady?

 

[Cherwell]

I thought it was determined that the housekeeper was away at the time of the murder - the reason she was not a witness. Also she did not live in the house as far as I recall. However, I am not sure about the gardener as he was supposed to live in the house. So was he away too? The mind boggles.

I have read somewhere that the housekeeper supposedly heard nothing (no shots or screams etc) because of a noisy water feature outside her window. I have no source for this so it may just be rumour or speculation.

I wonder if the Pistorius family are paying OP's staff to stay on and look after the house. Just saying.

 

[shane13]

In the wiki article on 9mm parabellums, it shows the bullet dimensions the gun maximally handles. It also has a diagram under another diagram but its easily copied. The maximal bullet dimension diagram depicts a non-hollow point bullet.

And the photo with 3 types of bullets that the 9mm Partabellum handles describes them--and shows them--as, and I quote--"Three projectile types: unjacketed (lead), full metal jacket, and hollow point.,"

It is patently false to state that the 9mm Parabellum gun handles only hollow point bullets.

9×19mm Parabellum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[molly333]

That's after the 3.00 bangs. Yes this proves the screaming women wasn't shot till 3.17. As WE ALL KNOW.

I don't know that. That could have been bat on door at 3:17.

Sounds the same to Dr. & Mrs. Stipp.

MOO

 

[Cherwell]

"Boyfriend" jeans are women's jeans designed to look like your wearing your boyfriend's jeans. Who knew, huh?! My response was a little tongue in cheek though. I do agree that Nel wouldn't let it slide were they Oscar's. Could be a card he's holding close to the vest for now or not.

Certainly the jeans outside were Reeva's.

Reeva's mother thought the jeans found in the bedroom looked large for Reeva...well maybe this is the unknown thong underwear in the dryer.

Highly, highly unlikely but if the jeans aren't Reeva's and both DT and PT stipulated that they're women's jeans maybe the jeans were the cause of the fight and not coffee with her ex?

Random musings...

This post caused me to think. I take it the BIB is a hypothetical example and not a confirmed fact

But .... Suppose Reeva did find a garment belonging to another woman in OP's house? Like a pair of jeans? Could they be the jeans seen outside, thrown out by Reeva? Just a thought.

 

[Jake18]

I have read somewhere that the housekeeper supposedly heard nothing (no shots or screams etc) because of a noisy water feature outside her window. I have no source for this so it may just be rumour or speculation.

I wonder if the Pistorius family are paying OP's staff to stay on and look after the house. Just saying.

I have always wondered if there aren't a number of people who heard screams or shots but haven't come forward. And do you blame them? Phone numbers being read out in court, witnesses reduced to tears in cross examination, being accused of lying...

It's Dr Stipp I have a huge amount of admiration for - he's got three children and he went to assist anyway even though he thought there was a family murder being carried out.

 

[molly333]

Has it been confirmed that they didn't search the entire house?

I don't know if any witness said they did. I haven't heard that.

I heard chief Detective say they stayed in foyer, kitchen, up the stairs, bedroom, master bathroom.

But that was a big house.

MOO

 

[molly333]

This post caused me to think. I take it the BIB is a hypothetical example and not a confirmed fact

But .... Suppose Reeva did find a garment belonging to another woman in OP's house? Like a pair of jeans? Could they be the jeans seen outside, thrown out by Reeva? Just a thought.

I wondered the same thing...

 

[shane13]

I have always wondered if there aren't a number of people who heard screams or shots but haven't come forward. And do you blame them? Phone numbers being read out in court, witnesses reduced to tears in cross examination, being accused of lying...

It's Dr Stipp I have a huge amount of admiration for - he's got three children and he went to assist anyway even though he thought there was a family murder being carried out.

Yes I wrote immediately during trial that Dr Stipp is a great hero, and that who knows where Reeva's body might have ended up w.o. his direct intervention.

Or alternatively, how much more the crime scene would have been altered? Note that even though Reeva's body lie at the base of the stairs (his alleged great love), and Dr Stipp was watching--OP couild not help but go back up the stairs--obviously crime scene alteration was not yet complete... JMO

 

[Nausicaa]

I thought a semi automatic still required the trigger to be pulled four times,not just once.

The term "semi-automatic" is potentially ambiguous. I believe that OP's gun required separate trigger action for each shot fired. OP himself seems clearly to recognize this.

 

[Lyra500]

The term "semi-automatic" is potentially ambiguous. I believe that OP's gun required separate trigger action for each shot fired. OP himself seems clearly to recognize this.

Thank you- yes that was my understanding. I was just questioning another FM who seems to be claiming that OP's gun required just one pull to fire four times and therefore stating that a verdict in another unconnected case can be extrapolated. This seems logically and factually incorrect to me.

 

[shane13]

Thank you- yes that was my understanding. I was just questioning another FM who seems to be claiming that OP's gun required just one pull to fire four times and therefore stating that a verdict in another unconnected case can be extrapolated. This seems logically and factually incorrect to me.

You are correct Lyra.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Yes I wrote immediately during trial that Dr Stipp is a great hero, and that who knows where Reeva's body might have ended up w.o. his direct intervention.

Or alternatively, how much more the crime scene would have been altered? Note that even though Reeva's body lie at the base of the stairs, and Dr Stipp was watching--OP couild not help but go back up the stairs--obviously crime scene alteration was not yet complete... JMO

Yes I agree and have said the same in the past .
I also think Baba and the other guard were brave as well bearing in my they had virtually been told not to bother but used their gut instinct and investigated anyway .

 

[shane13]

Yes I agree and have said the same in the past .
I also think Baba and the other guard were brave as well bearing in my they had virtually been told not to bother but used their gut instinct and investigated anyway .

And maybe people should focus on who told that to Mr Baba--and if that directive itself is criminal?!

 

[molly333]

2:23 on tape, Witness Michelle Burgher

There were four gunshots. And, then I heard her petrified screaming some time during the gunshots. And, just after the gunshots was the last that I heard the same woman's voice, the same woman's voice that woke me that evening.

Oscar Neighbour Heard 'Blood-Curdling Screams' - YouTube


I am 99 percent certain Mrs. Burgher did not hear Reeva scream during the gunshots, and 100 percent certain she didn't hear Reeva scream after the gunshots.

Therefore, she was hearing Oscar's screams, and the bat strikes. She slept through the gunshots.

MOO

 

[Lochlynsmom]

They were all looking at the tag on the jeans, which presumably had a size printed on it. I really think if there were any question at all about whose jeans they were, the prosecution would have pointed that out.

I am behind but jumping off your post. Hoping someone familiar with SA law can answer this. Does the prosecution have to point out whose jeans they are? The photo has been submitted into evidence, OP claims they are hers. Can Nel turn around in closing and say, look at the size they are not Reeva's they are in fact OP's? I ask because this could explain why there are some unanswered questions.

Not for me though OP needs to go to prison supporter.

 

[kittychi]

The name 'Black Talon' rather than 'hollow-point' was used by Nel because he knew that it would cause a stir, be picked up by the media, and create an early storm with public opinion. It was a good ploy, as it created the intended buzz around those who had little knowledge of guns or ammunition.

The Black Talon bullet is not an unusual bullet and does no more damage than any other hollow-point bullet. The only reason these bullets are not widely available is because Winchester haven't manufactured them under that brand name for years. They now use the name Winchester Ranger.

Nel has spent years with law enforcement agencies, and his own guys use Winchester Ranger bullets in their weapons. If you are a perpetrator and shot by law enforcement then the chances are you will be shot with a re-branded Black Talon. Not surprisingly Nel didn't mention this.

The reason these bullets are used is because they are effective. They stop an assailant, and the bullet is less likely to travel through the assailant and hit another person or cause collateral damage. Black Talon is simply a brand name.

The gun used by OP was a Taurus. How often have we heard the name mentioned by Nel? Hardly ever. Now, if the gun was called the Taurus 'Destroyer', can you imagine how quickly Nel and the media would have latched onto this?


...hope you catch my drift.

:smile:


n.b. I have attached a photograph of hollow point-bullets, as I think it's important to show how hype and media sensationalism can distort and create a misunderstanding.

Black Talon on left, Ranger on right.

Link

Not unlike the defense using terms like "unfortunate incident" to refer to a brutal murder after witnesses heard terrified, blood-curdling screams.

 

[sicknote]

Why didn't he look for Reeva anywhere else in the house?

The prosecution says: Why didn’t Oscar search the rest of the house? Check if Reeva had gone downstairs.

Pistorius says: He had already become fearful she was in the toilet cubicle. Why would he "waste time" searching the rest of the house?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...o-different-versions-dont-add-up-9263835.html


Molly says, why didn't the police look for a crime scene anywhere else in the house?

Simple really molly. He locked the bedroom door and took the key.....he knew she wasn't downstairs.