Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[minor4th]

I think Mr N did a quick check of the house after hearing the bang which puts the time at right about where Mrs stipp's had testified 3.13 to 3.14 ( her clock was fast ) ? Not sure about the other witnesses .

I don't think you can really estimate exactly how long Mr N checked the house or how long he and his wife talked about him not going outside.

Me N called at 3:16 - it was before the second bangshots happened at 3:17. Those times are established - no need to guess at the accuracy or in accuracy of Mrs Stipp's clock. But it was after the first sounds and after Oscar yelled help help help. It has to have been the first shots Mrs N heard.

If anyone can come up with a way to refute this, I'm open to hearing every perspective.

 

[Gryffindor]

Yes, I wrote that here a week or two ago that since that was not his father's ammo, it likely went with a gun that maybe OP was going to be approved for soon.

But he couldn't wait.

I also wrote then that someone who wants to make sure he would survive would never have just one gun--they do jam.

So yes I am on record believeing he had a 2nd gun there (if not more.)

How big was Reeva's bag?

Mary Poppins big

 

[Murphys_Law]

Another few questions I have are:

Was there evidence that the toilet room window was open, thus possibly the reason why OP inserted the tidbit for RS "to get down" and that bit said almost under his breath "why are you calling the police"?(this of course notwithstanding VR's assertion that there wasn't a window... was he a DT or a PT witness? He certainly seemed to be more willing to believe and put forward OP's version than Botha> Did anyone search VR for the supposedly missing watch and could it have been a bogus claim made up by himself to help OP get away with murder? He did "retire" shortly after, correct?)

Oh and about the bullet/pellet? holes in the bedroom door... could those be responsible for the extra "gunshots" the other witnesses heard?

Re the air rifle, was that a silencer on it or some special enhancement device to make it's pellets hit harder and would the pellets loaded in that rifle have left any physical evidence behind or would they have totally disintegrated upon impact?

Hmm, and just what are the laws in SA regarding tampering with or removing evidence from a crime scene, especially in regards to someone that holds a law degree?

I have more but answers to those would be helpful. :/

bb1 - well, there are a pair of jeans on the ground directly below the toilette window, the inference being they went out the toilette window. So, imo -- yes, it is probable the window had been opened. I also have considered "GET DOWN" as a command to get down from the toilette as she tried to escape, or a threat (reinforced with a gun) to get on her knees. He obviously believes someone heard him say it -- why else would he nuance version 9.xx with this new phrase?

bb2: Yes, I think VR has some splainin' to do. Roux certainly put his best foot forward on cross with him.

bb3: air rifle extension could be a muzzlebrake/muffler to direct the co2 gases away from the shooter.
http://www.airgunhome.com/pages/silencers.html
I don't think the pellets would totally disintigrate -- but the spent pellet would be very small as the pellet hole(s?) in the bedroom door is only .177in or 4.5mm

my :twocents:

 

[minor4th]

We do not have their phone records from Vodacom/MTN/etc. So the time on their cell phone could have been wrong. Like the Stipp's alarm clock (3-4 min fast) and Motha's camera.



3:16:15 Didn't get through. Then 3:16:36 (44 sec).



Baba said Stipp and a neighbor reported gunshots. I think it was Roux who then suggested that the neighbor was Nghlethwa.

They have the phone data from the security phones and that's all they need to establish the relative times the witnesses called.

 

[liesbeth]

yep i believe that was the... 03:16:13 [didn't get through] and 03:16:36 call from Mr. N

call was either 34 or 44 seconds [i couldn't make out the figure]

But today Mr N said he never heard gunshots.

I think it was Roux who suggested to Baba that the neighbor was Mr N. So was there another neighbor who called?

 

[lithgow1]

Did you hear the two woman scream in court today? I would guess that sound could be interpreted as "blood curdling" - Mr and Mrs N both said it was high pitched also. It's reasonable to believe that screaming is what all the witnesses heard - they just applied different interpretations.

I heard them both and wouldn't agree they were 'blood curdling' wails though I wouldn't want to hear such sounds in the middle of the night. I just don't see how two female witnesses for the defence demonstrating what they heard proves ANYTHING about the noises Pistorius may or may not have made. Now had the chap given a loud drawn out wail that might have been different but he didn't, only the two women did.

 

[TorisMom003]

I want to know why both Standers (according to OP) told him that an ambulance was on the way when he first came down the stairs with Reeva. Clearly neither of them had called for one. OP said that he was told to bring Reeva to hospital instead of waiting for "him" (the 911 operator). So why would they tell OP that he needed to put Reeva down since an ambulance was on the way?

 

[minor4th]

We do not have their phone records from Vodacom/MTN/etc. So the time on their cell phone could have been wrong. Like the Stipp's alarm clock (3-4 min fast) and Motha's camera.



3:16:15 Didn't get through. Then 3:16:36 (44 sec).



Baba said Stipp and a neighbor reported gunshots. I think it was Roux who then suggested that the neighbor was Nghlethwa.

Also, there is absolutely nothing to suggest Motha's camera time stamp was wrong. The photos themselves prove that his pictures were taken while Van Staden claimed to be totally alone and taking pictures of a totally untouched crime scene.

 

[steveml]

No doubt one of the many reasons Reeva ran into that bathroom to hide from him. I think he is very much like Phil Spector. I see such resemblances in their personalities along with extreme jealousy. I think she was terrified of him with good reason. And I also THINK that he has wanted to do this for a long time; as his other GF described him doing a similar thing during the thunderstorm. I think that there is something very wrong with OP. This is not an "attack" this is my OPINION of OP. I think he is guilty of murder in the first degree.

If the current evidence from the both the PT and DT expert witnesses correct then with the above scenario I'm left holding a mental picture that I find so very hard to believe. Much harder than believing OP screamed like a woman.

I have to imagine that OP was arguing with Reeva whilst on his stumps - that's a whole 4ft tall, for a guy that supposedly likes to be in control and domineering. Rather than steadily moving down the corridor to maintain his balance as he would be in an intruder situation, he's running after Reeva in a waddling fashion through the bedroom, along the corridor and into the bathroom, whilst trying to remain upright. Whilst doing this he has to hope that neither Reeva stops running or he stops waddling, as if he has to stop without anything for balance he simply falls over. He also has to make sure that he doesn't come into contact with Reeva as again, he'll lose balance and his best laid plan will be scuppered as he lies on the floor.

He can't push or move Reeva anywhere, as guess what...he'd fall over. Once he stops moving he has to lean on something, that is a simple fact. It then would become necessary for him to request that Reeva take herself into the toilet, or wait while he uses her for balance, and then follow her into the toilet. At any time from wherever the argument started, Reeva, who is quite an athletic girl herself, could move her hip to the side and send OP tumbling. A simple push with one hand would do it

Now, it may be difficult to imagine OP screaming in a high octave, but if I'm thinking in terms of probability, the threatening but waddling OP is gonna come second every single time.

The waddling explanation isn't meant to be funny - it's realism.

Once you get over this it helps to understand how ridiculous this scenario appears.

 

[Feynman]

I can - the open balcony was directly opposite their own balcony. The bathroom was on the other side

I don't think so. From the street: OP's bedroom balcony is on the right side of OP's house, OP's bathroom windows face toward the back, and the N's house is to the left of OP's, with the N's bedroom on the left side of N's house. I think.

 

[Gryffindor]

We do not have their phone records from Vodacom/MTN/etc. So the time on their cell phone could have been wrong. Like the Stipp's alarm clock (3-4 min fast) and Motha's camera.

3:16:15 Didn't get through. Then 3:16:36 (44 sec).

Baba said Stipp and a neighbor reported gunshots. I think it was Roux who then suggested that the neighbor was Nghlethwa.

Phone call times were gathered via network communications masts, towers etc not individual mobile phone devices.

 

[sleuth-d-]

For both these female witnesses to do this today you would have to think they were guided by the defence team . If not it is a heck of a coincidence IMO

yep, especially as the defence team had the number 1 candidate to demonstrate how op cried that night, but chose for him not to cry when giving his 'version'.

 

[minor4th]

I heard them both and wouldn't agree they were 'blood curdling' wails though I wouldn't want to hear such sounds in the middle of the night. I just don't see how two female witnesses for the defence demonstrating what they heard proves ANYTHING about the noises Pistorius may or may not have made. Now had the chap given a loud drawn out wail that might have been different but he didn't, only the two women did.

It was representative of the quality of the screams. It wasn't just "crying". That's the value of their demonstration - I don't think it was meant to duplicate Oscar's pitch

 

[TorisMom003]

OP is 5 1 without his pros. legs on. Can we please keep the known facts straight instead of using false information that appears to be used to make OP seem smaller and more vulnerable than he really is.

 

[lithgow1]

I am aware of her views and cannot fail to be astonished by them. Pitting her against the many erudite SA legal experts would be like throwing her to the lions IMO. :floorlaugh:

And yet she is a senior lecturer in law at Cape Town Uni. Maybe Cape Town Crim is right and she is an OP fan. It's the only explanation.

One time I was watching and her and Curnow were doing their usual positive spin and it cut back to the hosts in the studio who were sitting there open mouthed - this was back when CNN Europe were televising the trial live and you could see that the anchors were incredulous about what those two women were saying. The phrase 'are we watching the same trial' came to mind as it so often does with this one.

 

[liesbeth]

They have the phone data from the security phones and that's all they need to establish the relative times the witnesses called.

Burger and Johnson didn't call the Silverwoods security. So no, minor4th, they do not have the phone records of the people called by Burger and Johnson.

 

[Feynman]

It's the other way around. Balcony at the front and bathroom at the rear.

The Stipp's house is at the rear, only 60 metres away and directly facing the open bathroom window.

OP's bedroom balcony is on the right side of his house, toward the rear - not the front.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I don't think you can really estimate exactly how long Mr N checked the house or how long he and his wife talked about him not going outside.

Me N called at 3:16 - it was before the second bangshots happened at 3:17. Those times are established - no need to guess at the accuracy or in accuracy of Mrs Stipp's clock. But it was after the first sounds and after Oscar yelled help help help. It has to have been the first shots Mrs N heard.

If anyone can come up with a way to refute this, I'm open to hearing every perspective.

I am a little confused . Could you just outline where you have arrived at the time of 3.17 for the second shot sounds being ?
Do You believe the N's woke after the first bangs and then heard OP screaming for ten minutes but then didn't hear the second bangs ?

 

[liesbeth]

Phone call times were gathered via network communications masts, towers etc not individual mobile phone devices.

That is what I said. MTN and Vodacom are service providers. Not mobile devices.

 

[liesbeth]

Also, there is absolutely nothing to suggest Motha's camera time stamp was wrong. The photos themselves prove that igos pictures were taken while Van Staden claimed to be totally alone and taking pictures of a totally untouched crime scene.

You mean there is nothing to prove Motha's time stamp was right. The only time stamp proven right was Van Staden's.

The defense can not discredit a proven time stamp with an unproven time stamp.

And the photos do not prove that. They could have been taken shortly after Van Staden finished his initial round of photograhs.